CrazyBoss Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 Hi Guys. Just for testing, first attempt and get intybasic better to know. A simple Tic-Tac-Toe game. rom already more than 14k I experienced a few weird things like: wait:gosub think should be changed to: wait gosub think and read dont accept array. read v(1) should be changed to: read t:v(1)=t cb-tictactoe.rom 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
intvnut Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 It looks very slick, with lots of animation. Cool! Regarding size.... looking at the disassembly, it appears there are many IntyBASIC constructs that aren't code-size friendly that your Tic-Tac-Toe code has "unrolled". Obviously, I haven't seen the BASIC source, so I don't know what those are or what you wrote that triggered these. Still, there's some impressive repetitive sequences in the disassembly, such as: MVI G_0138, R0 ; 517D 0280 0138 CMPI #$0002, R0 ; 517F 0378 0002 MVII #$FFFF, R0 ; 5181 02B8 FFFF BEQ L_5186 ; 5183 0204 0001 INCR R0 ; 5185 0008 L_5186: MVI G_0138, R1 ; 5186 0281 0138 CMPI #$0004, R1 ; 5188 0379 0004 MVII #$FFFF, R1 ; 518A 02B9 FFFF BEQ L_518F ; 518C 0204 0001 INCR R1 ; 518E 0009 L_518F: COMR R1 ; 518F 0019 ANDR R1, R0 ; 5190 0188 COMR R1 ; 5191 0019 XORR R1, R0 ; 5192 01C8 MVI G_0138, R1 ; 5193 0281 0138 CMPI #$0006, R1 ; 5195 0379 0006 MVII #$FFFF, R1 ; 5197 02B9 FFFF BEQ L_519C ; 5199 0204 0001 INCR R1 ; 519B 0009 L_519C: COMR R1 ; 519C 0019 ANDR R1, R0 ; 519D 0188 COMR R1 ; 519E 0019 XORR R1, R0 ; 519F 01C8 MVI G_0138, R1 ; 51A0 0281 0138 CMPI #$0008, R1 ; 51A2 0379 0008 MVII #$FFFF, R1 ; 51A4 02B9 FFFF BEQ L_51A9 ; 51A6 0204 0001 INCR R1 ; 51A8 0009 L_51A9: COMR R1 ; 51A9 0019 ANDR R1, R0 ; 51AA 0188 COMR R1 ; 51AB 0019 XORR R1, R0 ; 51AC 01C8 MVI G_0138, R1 ; 51AD 0281 0138 CMPI #$000A, R1 ; 51AF 0379 000A MVII #$FFFF, R1 ; 51B1 02B9 FFFF BEQ L_51B6 ; 51B3 0204 0001 INCR R1 ; 51B5 0009 L_51B6: COMR R1 ; 51B6 0019 ANDR R1, R0 ; 51B7 0188 COMR R1 ; 51B8 0019 XORR R1, R0 ; 51B9 01C8 MVI G_0138, R1 ; 51BA 0281 0138 CMPI #$000C, R1 ; 51BC 0379 000C MVII #$FFFF, R1 ; 51BE 02B9 FFFF BEQ L_51C3 ; 51C0 0204 0001 INCR R1 ; 51C2 0009 L_51C3: COMR R1 ; 51C3 0019 ANDR R1, R0 ; 51C4 0188 COMR R1 ; 51C5 0019 XORR R1, R0 ; 51C6 01C8 MVI G_0138, R1 ; 51C7 0281 0138 CMPI #$000E, R1 ; 51C9 0379 000E MVII #$FFFF, R1 ; 51CB 02B9 FFFF BEQ L_51D0 ; 51CD 0204 0001 INCR R1 ; 51CF 0009 L_51D0: COMR R1 ; 51D0 0019 ANDR R1, R0 ; 51D1 0188 COMR R1 ; 51D2 0019 XORR R1, R0 ; 51D3 01C8 TSTR R0 ; 51D4 0080 BEQ L_51FA ; 51D5 0204 0023 That bit of code, which looks like it might be from some sort of IF statement OR-ing several conditions together, is 178 bytes all by itself. It looks like it's testing to see if some variable is 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, or 14, if I understood the assembly correctly. That could be coded more succinctly as testing whether it's greater than 1, less than 15, and if it's even. (That is, see if var AND 1 is equal to 0 or 1.) The Intellivision doesn't natively support OR, so the COMR/ANDR/COMR/XORR sequence is necessary to simulate it. In cases where you just care about true/false, you may be able to replace OR with + and get a code-size savings there. There was another function I saw starting at $5E63 and ending at $605A (nearly 1K bytes all by itself!) that seemed to be displaying stuff to the screen. I didn't get into too much detail, but I saw several stretches of code like this that really add to the codesize: L_6066: MVII #$02B4, R0 ; 6066 02B8 02B4 MVO R0, G_033E ; 6068 0240 033E MVII #$0005, R0 ; 606A 02B8 0005 MVO R0, G_033F ; 606C 0240 033F MVI G_033E, R4 ; 606E 0284 033E MVII #$0000, R0 ; 6070 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6072 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6074 0260 MVII #$00D0, R0 ; 6075 02B8 00D0 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6077 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6079 0260 MVII #$0140, R0 ; 607A 02B8 0140 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 607C 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 607E 0260 MVII #$01A8, R0 ; 607F 02B8 01A8 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6081 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6083 0260 MVII #$0168, R0 ; 6084 02B8 0168 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6086 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6088 0260 MVII #$0108, R0 ; 6089 02B8 0108 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 608B 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 608D 0260 MVII #$0170, R0 ; 608E 02B8 0170 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6090 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6092 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 6093 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6095 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6097 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6098 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 6099 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 609B 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 609D 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 609E 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 609F 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60A1 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60A3 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60A4 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 60A5 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60A7 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60A9 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60AA 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 60AB 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60AD 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60AF 0260 MVO R4, G_033E ; 60B0 0244 033E MVII #$02C8, R0 ; 60B2 02B8 02C8 MVO R0, G_033E ; 60B4 0240 033E MVII #$0005, R0 ; 60B6 02B8 0005 MVO R0, G_033F ; 60B8 0240 033F MVI G_033E, R4 ; 60BA 0284 033E MVII #$0000, R0 ; 60BC 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60BE 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60C0 0260 MVII #$00D0, R0 ; 60C1 02B8 00D0 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60C3 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60C5 0260 MVII #$0118, R0 ; 60C6 02B8 0118 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60C8 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60CA 0260 MVII #$0180, R0 ; 60CB 02B8 0180 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60CD 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60CF 0260 MVII #$01A8, R0 ; 60D0 02B8 01A8 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60D2 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60D4 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 60D5 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60D7 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60D9 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60DA 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 60DB 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60DD 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60DF 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60E0 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 60E1 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60E3 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60E5 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60E6 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 60E7 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60E9 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60EB 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60EC 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 60ED 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60EF 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60F1 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60F2 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 60F3 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 60F5 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 60F7 0260 MVO R4, G_033E ; 60F8 0244 033E MVII #$02DC, R0 ; 60FA 02B8 02DC MVO R0, G_033E ; 60FC 0240 033E MVII #$0005, R0 ; 60FE 02B8 0005 MVO R0, G_033F ; 6100 0240 033F MVI G_033E, R4 ; 6102 0284 033E MVII #$0000, R0 ; 6104 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6106 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6108 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6109 0260 MVII #$0120, R0 ; 610A 02B8 0120 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 610C 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 610E 0260 MVII #$0190, R0 ; 610F 02B8 0190 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6111 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6113 0260 MVII #$0108, R0 ; 6114 02B8 0108 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6116 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6118 0260 MVII #$01B8, R0 ; 6119 02B8 01B8 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 611B 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 611D 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 611E 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6120 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6122 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6123 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 6124 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6126 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6128 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6129 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 612A 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 612C 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 612E 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 612F 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 6130 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6132 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6134 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 6135 0260 MVII #$0000, R0 ; 6136 02B8 0000 XOR G_033F, R0 ; 6138 03C0 033F MVO@ R0, R4 ; 613A 0260 MVO@ R0, R4 ; 613B 0260 MVO R4, G_033E ; 613C 0244 033E I don't know what that code does—maybe you can work it out by looking at the listing file generated by AS1600—but I get the feeling a loop might help here, or DATA statements, or a combination of the two. 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freewheel Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 I'm willing to bet there are a LOT of PRINT statements in the code. I've noticed they really bulk up the final ROM size. I haven't spent much time figuring out what they're compiled to. In terms of wait:gosub - the compiler is interpreting your wait: as a label. I'm not a fan of this either, but to be honest there isn't really a reason to start a line like this anyway. The : syntax to put multiple statements on a single line is only really needed after an IF statement. Otherwise you're simply using it to save whitespace, which is unnecessary. Nice and fast interface regardless. It looks like you've developed something of a decision tree based on how long the computer "thinks". That is the kind of thing that can also bulk up code, depending on how you've implemented it. Be VERY careful if you use recursion for this; the INTV stack is not terribly deep (although Tic Tac Toe doesn't have a very deep game tree anyway...). Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3104071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
intvnut Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 (edited) I'm willing to bet there are a LOT of PRINT statements in the code. I've noticed they really bulk up the final ROM size. I haven't spent much time figuring out what they're compiled to. Indeed, that seems to be the case. Here's a simple test I did, printing "Hello Mudda! Hello Fadda!" (from the going to camp song) . ; PRINT AT 0, "Hello Mudda!" MVII #512,R0 MVO R0,_screen MVI _screen,R4 MVII #320,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #552,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #608,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #632,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #0,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #360,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #680,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #544,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #520,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #8,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVO R4,_screen ; PRINT AT 20, "Hello Fadda!" MVII #532,R0 MVO R0,_screen MVI _screen,R4 MVII #320,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #552,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #608,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #632,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #0,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #304,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #520,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #544,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #520,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVII #8,R0 XOR _color,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVO R4,_screen . Open-coding the print like this will always be faster than calling a subroutine, but it will also be much larger. For PRINT specifically, the code generator could be a little smarter about register usage, loading _color once and putting the encoded string data in a data section of some sort, for example, even if it doesn't call a subroutine. Maybe a 1.0 wishlist feature? For example, the PRINT "Hello Fadda!" above could reduce to this, and be both smaller and faster and still open-coded. It's smaller owing to loading _color once, and using a very simple XOR trick: . MVII #532,R4 MVII #S1,R5 MVI _color,R0 XOR@ R5,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 XOR@ R5,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 XOR@ R5,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVO@ R0,R4 XOR@ R5,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 XOR@ R5,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 XOR@ R5,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 XOR@ R5,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 XOR@ R5,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVO@ R0,R4 XOR@ R5,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 XOR@ R5,R0 MVO@ R0,R4 MVO R4,_screen B L1 S1: DECLE 320,552 XOR 320,608 XOR 552,632 XOR 608,0 XOR 632 DECLE 304 XOR 0,520 XOR 304,544 XOR 520,520 XOR 544,8 XOR 520 L1: . With that change it went from 120 bytes down to 84 bytes for PRINT "Hello Fadda!", almost 1/3rd smaller. It would get smaller still if it output the DECLE statements at the end so it could avoid the branch-around. That would save 4 bytes. If IntyBASIC built up a simple "string table" and output it at the end of code generation, that would suffice. And it would get much, much smaller if IntyBASIC just issued a call to a print function to print the string, although it would get a little slower. One side note: I noticed IntyBASIC does optimize printing multiple consecutive characters that are the same by just issuing multiple MVO@ in a row. It needs to be careful not to issue too many MVO's in a row (or non-interruptible instructions in general), as too many non-interruptible instructions in a row will lead to display glitches. What we discovered during Kroz is that even as few as 45 cycles of non-interruptible instructions can, in rare cases, cause display glitches. (Usually you can get away with up to 50 or more cycles worth.) Edited November 2, 2014 by intvnut 1 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3104088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyBoss Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 I am sure Nanochess will continue improve the IntyBasic I am not into the 1600 assembler, but rather Z80 but as I understand it the print function is a hungry one. every single char is loaded one by one and then put to the screen. Give a bigger size. In z80 you will typical load a register with the pointer to your text, and then call a function to put it to screen, maybe the Intellivision even also have this function ? My code only use a limited number of variables: 0x12B V12: RMB 1 ; A 0x12C V13: RMB 1 ; C 0x12D V1: RMB 1 ; CSC 0x12E V10: RMB 1 ; CVAL 0x12F V14: RMB 1 ; D 0x130 V4: RMB 1 ; DEMO 0x131 V3: RMB 1 ; DRAW 0x132 V15: RMB 1 ; E 0x133 V6: RMB 1 ; FIRST 0x134 V7: RMB 1 ; PL 0x135 V2: RMB 1 ; PSC 0x136 V11: RMB 1 ; PVAL 0x137 V8: RMB 1 ; S 0x138 V9: RMB 1 ; T 0x139 V5: RMB 1 ; TOMME 0x13A Q4: RMB 9 ; F 0x143 Q5: RMB 3 ; V 0x146 _SCRATCH: EQU $ from 0x100-0x12A we have Intybasic's internal memory usage, lige buffer for scroll and playing music. The trick is to try to use the same variable again and again, with out conflict. Can intellivision handle 16 or 32 kb max rom size ? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3104237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
intvnut Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 I am sure Nanochess will continue improve the IntyBasic I am not into the 1600 assembler, but rather Z80 but as I understand it the print function is a hungry one. every single char is loaded one by one and then put to the screen. Give a bigger size. In z80 you will typical load a register with the pointer to your text, and then call a function to put it to screen, maybe the Intellivision even also have this function ? My code only use a limited number of variables: 0x12B V12: RMB 1 ; A 0x12C V13: RMB 1 ; C 0x12D V1: RMB 1 ; CSC 0x12E V10: RMB 1 ; CVAL 0x12F V14: RMB 1 ; D 0x130 V4: RMB 1 ; DEMO 0x131 V3: RMB 1 ; DRAW 0x132 V15: RMB 1 ; E 0x133 V6: RMB 1 ; FIRST 0x134 V7: RMB 1 ; PL 0x135 V2: RMB 1 ; PSC 0x136 V11: RMB 1 ; PVAL 0x137 V8: RMB 1 ; S 0x138 V9: RMB 1 ; T 0x139 V5: RMB 1 ; TOMME 0x13A Q4: RMB 9 ; F 0x143 Q5: RMB 3 ; V 0x146 _SCRATCH: EQU $ from 0x100-0x12A we have Intybasic's internal memory usage, lige buffer for scroll and playing music. The trick is to try to use the same variable again and again, with out conflict. Can intellivision handle 16 or 32 kb max rom size ? I'm not sure what a 'lige' buffer is, but in any case, it looks like you aren't using very much RAM. You are right, though, that the usual thing to do is to load a pointer to the string, and then call a function to display it. It's up to nanochess to improve IntyBASIC's ROM usage here if he wants to. My suggestions above are really meant for him. Regarding ROM size, the short answer is: The Intellivision can use very large ROMs, up to 50K words (100K bytes) if you're careful. You can easily get to 40K words (80K bytes) without too much effort. Going beyond that requires some care. A longer answer: You will need to insert one ASM ORG statement to go above 8K words / 16K bytes. To get to 24K words / 48K bytes, insert the statement "ASM ORG $C100" somewhere between Procedures in your program, ahead of the point where it grows beyond 8K words. To get to 40K words / 80K bytes, insert the statement "ASM ORG $8100" somewhere between procedures, ahead of the point where it grows beyond 24K words / 48K bytes. Your program will have a structure like this: . ... lots of code ... ... lots of code ... ASM ORG $C100 : REM somewhere before where your program grows beyond 8K words / 16K bytes ... lots of code ... ... lots of code ... ASM ORG $8100 : REM somewhere before where your program grows beyond 24K words / 48K bytes ... lots of code ... ... lots of code ... . Beyond that, you need to know a bit more about the Intellivision memory map and how the ECS works. And now for an even longer, more technical answer. The Intellivision memory map is as follows: $0000 - $003F: STIC registers $0040 - $007F: Reserved for additional STIC registers, but unused $0080 - $0081: Intellivoice $0082 - $00DF: Intellivoice expansion port. (Never actually used for anything) $00E0 - $00E2: ECS serial / cassette port $00E3 - $00EF: Intellivoice expansion port. (Never actually used for anything) $00F0 - $00FF: ECS sound chip (PSG) $0100 - $01EF: 8-bit scratch RAM $01F0 - $01FF: Master component sound chip (PSG) $0200 - $02EF: BACKTAB, the character display memory $02F0 - $035F: 16-bit system RAM $0360 - $03FF: Unused / reserved. (On some systems, the system RAM returns garbage at these addresses.) $0400 - $04FF: Intellivision II EXEC 'secret ROM'. This ROM includes the routine that makes some games purposefully incompatible with the Intellivision II. $0500 - $06FF: Unused $0700 - $0BFF: Intellivoice expansion port. (Never actually used for anything.) $0C00 - $0FFF: Unused $1000 - $1FFF: EXEC ROM $2000 - $2FFF: ECS ROM, in page 1. Available for games if you take precautions. $3000 - $37FF: GROM $3800 - $39FF: GRAM $3A00 - $3BFF: GRAM alias $3C00 - $3DFF: GRAM alias $3E00 - $3FFF: GRAM alias $4000 - $403F: Write-only STIC register alias; $4021 is read sensitive (a read to $4021 will change STIC to color-stack mode) $4000 - $47FF: ECS 8-bit RAM $4800 - $4FFF: Reserved for PlayCable ROM. Available for games if you take precautions. $5000 - $6FFF: Available for game ROM. $5000 is the default entry point for games. $7000 - $7FFF: ECS EXEC in page 0. Available for games if you take precautions. Note: Writes to $7800 - $7FFF will alias GRAM. $8000 - $803F: Write-only STIC register alias; $8021 is read sensitive (a read to $8021 will change STIC to color-stack mode) $8040 - $BFFF: Available for game ROM. Note: Writes to $B800 - $BFFF will alias GRAM. $C000 - $C03F: Write-only STIC register alias; $C021 is read sensitive (a read to $C021 will change STIC to color-stack mode) $C040 - $DFFF: Available for game ROM. $E000 - $EFFF: ECS EXEC in page 1. Available for games if you take precautions. $F000 - $FFFF: Available for game ROM. Note: Writes to $F800 - $FFFF will alias GRAM. Ok, that memory map is a mess. It's hard to see what memory ranges are available to games. If you ignore the ECS for a moment, you can put game ROM here: $2000 - $2FFF: 4K words (8K bytes) $4040 - $7FFF: 16K words (32K bytes) $8040 - $BFFF: 16K words (32K bytes) $C040 - $FFFF: 16K words (32K bytes) That adds up to 52K words (104K bytes). If you want to retain compatibility with the ECS, you cannot use the address range $4040 - $47FF (the ECS RAM). So that reduces your maximum ROM size to 50K words (100K bytes). You can reuse the other ROM address ranges associated with the ECS ($2xxx, $7xxx, $Exxx). Details below. You may have noticed that some address ranges say they are available if you take precautions. These fall into two categories: Restrictions imposed by the Intellivision, and restrictions due to the ECS. The Intellivision was designed to be expanded. The Intellivision EXEC looks for expansion ROMs at $7000 and $4800 early during its boot-up sequence. If you have ROM at either location, the EXEC will jump directly to that ROM before it has completed its initialization. So, if you program a game, and it has ROM at location $7000, the EXEC will jump directly to location $7000 early in its bootup. If your code doesn't expect that, the system will crash. The same is true for location $4800. The ECS puts ROM at $2000 - $2FFF, $7000 - $7FFF, and $E000 - $EFFF. These ROMs are page-flipped (bank-switched), and can be disabled. So, it is possible to write a game that uses these address ranges, if you include code that disables the ECS ROMs. All that's required is to make three writes to locations $2FFF, $7FFF, and $EFFF with the right values ($2A5F, $7A5F and $EA5F work) to disable those ROMs near the start of your program. By default, IntyBASIC starts your game's code at $5000. This is the Intellivision's default entry point for games. So, your game will start assembling at that address, growing upward. For games up to 8K words (16K bytes), the game will occupy the address range $5000 - $6FFF. Once your game gets larger than that, if you do not include an "ASM ORG" directive anywhere, it will put code at $7000 and above. The Intellivision EXEC will see this code, and jump directly to it very early during boot. Since your code likely doesn't expect to get called at that address directly, the system will crash. So, to go larger than 8K words (16K bytes), you will need to add one or more "ASM ORG" statements in your program to avoid assembling code at $7000. The easiest thing to do is to add an "ASM ORG $C100" statement to your program before the point that takes your program over the 8K word / 16K byte line. Code after that point in your program will assemble at $C100 onward, giving you access to an additional 16K words (32K bytes) of ROM at $C100 - $FFFF, on top of the 8K words (16K bytes) of ROM at $5000 - $6FFF. That gives you a total of 24K words (48K bytes) with a single extra IntyBASIC statement. To get to 40K words (80K bytes), you will need a second ASM statement in your program—ASM ORG $8100—to open up the ROM at $8100 - $BFFF. You will need to add that at an appropriate point in your program to keep it from assembling beyond $FFFF. That will open up another 16K words (32K bytes) to your program. To get to 44K words, 48K words and ultimately 50K words will require additional ASM ORG statements to put ROM at $2000 - $2FFF, $7100 - $7FFF and $4800 - $4FFF. Those ROM ranges are a bit more challenging to use, as they're small, and you need to be mindful of how the ECS EXEC works. If your game gets that big, I'll be happy to go into more detail. You might wonder why I used $7100, $8100 and $C100 instead of $7001, $8040 and $C040. I have two reasons: The Intellicart and CC3 map ROM in 256-word sections, and so rounding to $0100 boundaries ensures that none of your game gets mapped over one of the aliases or other ROMs (in the case of code at $7100). Also, we've seen strange STIC behavior with code running near $C040 that seems to go away when we move the code to a higher address. 3 Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3104272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Hi, CrazyBoss, I just took a moment to check out your game. I agree with intvnut that it looks very polished and slick, with the music and the flashy transitions. I do have some feedback though. I understand why you set the play-field a bit off center during the game, but the title screen would look much better if it were aligned in the center of the screen. As for the play-field during play, may I suggest moving it one or two more cards to the left? As it stands, it looks much too close to the center to feel like the text on the right pushed it off, instead of being designed that way. That will also give the status area more "breathing room." Perhaps you could make the game start directly when the player presses any key, or the disc in any direction? The computer is very aggressive! And it also changes its tactics often. Once I found a way to beat it, and exploited it repeatedly three times in a row. However, by the fourth time, the computer switched (perhaps randomly), and I couldn't beat it any more. It felt like it "learned," which is awesome! Overall, it's a very nicely done game. It reminds me of the sort of microcomputer games that were available back in the 1980s, simple but slick. About the only thing that could improve it at this point is just embellishments in the music, sound effects, or graphics; but none of that is really necessary for this type of game. Good job! -dZ. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3105996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyBoss Posted November 4, 2014 Author Share Posted November 4, 2014 thanks for the feed back this game was programmed in one week, while taking care of a 1 year old baby, so it was quite limited with time. But I have programmed basic since 1987 so have coded tic-tac-toe games before. this was a learning lesson for intellivision, cause collectorvision games asked me to give it a try, i might try to program other games later. the game work out from some rules, so its not learning anything. It have basic rules. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3106612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 thanks for the feed back this game was programmed in one week, while taking care of a 1 year old baby, so it was quite limited with time. But I have programmed basic since 1987 so have coded tic-tac-toe games before. Wow, I'm impressed. It looks really slick for a game done in a week. Such is the intrepid power of IntyBASIC, I guess. this was a learning lesson for intellivision, cause collectorvision games asked me to give it a try, i might try to program other games later. Then, I cannot wait to see what you come up with for CollectorVision. the game work out from some rules, so its not learning anything. It have basic rules. Well, of course, I didn't really think it was learning. I just thought that the way it interacts (e.g., varying times to think, not responding identically on the same move all the time, etc.), it gives it a rather organic feel to the game, as if you were playing against a real opponent. Plus the cool interface and the sound effects don't hurt either. -dZ. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3107028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 You might wonder why I used $7100, $8100 and $C100 instead of $7001, $8040 and $C040. I have two reasons: The Intellicart and CC3 map ROM in 256-word sections, and so rounding to $0100 boundaries ensures that none of your game gets mapped over one of the aliases or other ROMs (in the case of code at $7100). Also, we've seen strange STIC behavior with code running near $C040 that seems to go away when we move the code to a higher address. In your CART.MAC library, the latter range shows as $C022 - $FFFF. Is this wrong? Christmas Carol reserves that range for its "data segment," starting with the title screen's data structures. Is there a problem at addresses $C022 - $C0FF? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3107034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyBoss Posted November 5, 2014 Author Share Posted November 5, 2014 I need more time to know inty basic, and especially how to create better graphics, and "sprites" My problem is that I see I have very limited ram resources. I saw above "memory map" say some ram is unused. can i use this area. Intybasic put its variables around 0x100----> are there other addresses I can use ? Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3107049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
intvnut Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) In your CART.MAC library, the latter range shows as $C022 - $FFFF. Is this wrong? Christmas Carol reserves that range for its "data segment," starting with the title screen's data structures. Is there a problem at addresses $C022 - $C0FF? Well, yes and no. Theoretically, you should be able to put ROM at $C000 - $C021 and $C023 onward. And with Christmas Carol we never had a problem. In fact, any game that uses color stack mode is probably fine, and I seem to recall Carol uses color stack throughout. See this thread, though, for why I'm suggesting folks put some additional buffer there as a general prophylactic: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/224875-weirdest-intellivision-bug-ive-ever-seen/ Basically, there's something weird going on at least with program fetches in that address range, and it can cause your game to mysteriously flip to color stack mode when you're not expecting it. We discovered it during Kroz testing. EDIT: I see you've seen the thread. And no, there's no new information on why this happens. Edited November 5, 2014 by intvnut Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3107094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DZ-Jay Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Thanks, it makes sense, Christmas Carol uses only Color Stack mode. In any case, I'll update the memory map of P-Machinery to avoid that boundary. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3107125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
intvnut Posted November 6, 2014 Share Posted November 6, 2014 I need more time to know inty basic, and especially how to create better graphics, and "sprites" My problem is that I see I have very limited ram resources. I saw above "memory map" say some ram is unused. can i use this area. Intybasic put its variables around 0x100----> are there other addresses I can use ? The Intellivision has 8-bit RAM at $100 - $1EF (sometimes called "scratch RAM"), and 16-bit RAM at $200 - $35F (sometimes called "system RAM"). The display (also known as BACKTAB) lives at $200 - $2EF. There's also 512 bytes of Graphics RAM (GRAM) at $3800 - $39FF that holds pictures for up to 64 different 8x8 tiles. The names "scratch RAM" and "system RAM" come from the limited official documentation that's shown up describing the Intellivision system components. For example, the GI datasheet for the AY-3-9600 that provides the 16-bit RAM calls that memory "System RAM." $100 - $101 is reserved for the interrupt service vector. This is fixed by the EXEC and you cannot change it. Other than that, how the rest gets used in IntyBASIC is defined by IntyBASIC. Perhaps nanochess can comment. In any case there isn't a lot of RAM available by default. If your game truly needs more RAM, some cartridge designs offer additional RAM. My JLP boards offer 8K words of 16-bit RAM from $8040 - $9F7F. I understand GroovyBee's Bee3 boards offer similar. But in any case, unless you're computing new sprite images on the fly, you shouldn't need much RAM for more sprite or other graphics, other than the ability to load pictures into GRAM. None of those really consume scratch RAM or system RAM. The pictures are all loaded from ROM into GRAM. Quote Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/231388-my-first-test-tic-tac-toe-with-intybasic/#findComment-3107726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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