squale Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 I never understood why anyone used SIO2PC when SIO2SD is so easy and a disconnected, self-contained solution. With SIO2USB you have to run some software on your PC to serve the disk image. But with SIO2SD, you just pop an SD card with a bunch of ATR's into it and bang-o. Games. All of that said, the ultimate solution for me has been the MyIDE-II. Pop in a cart. Select an image. Pow. Games. I think a bit like you for the SD version. Btw, what is the difference between MyIDE-II and SIO2SD ? Which one should I buy then ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I never understood why anyone used SIO2PC when SIO2SD is so easy and a disconnected, self-contained solution. With SIO2USB you have to run some software on your PC to serve the disk image. But with SIO2SD, you just pop an SD card with a bunch of ATR's into it and bang-o. Games. All of that said, the ultimate solution for me has been the MyIDE-II. Pop in a cart. Select an image. Pow. Games. For one thing, with an SIO2PC you have access to terabytes of storage space, so no need to worry about filling up your SD card and buy some more. Secondly i find manipulating disk images a lot easier on a PC then on an atari, thirdly for development an SIO2SD just cannot match the flexibility of an SIO2PC. If the only thing you use the SIO device for is games or just loading a few apps then an SIO2SD is good enough. But that's just my opinion anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 I think a bit like you for the SD version. Btw, what is the difference between MyIDE-II and SIO2SD ? Which one should I buy then ? The biggest difference is the data bus, which is PIA for the MyIDE II and SIO for the SIO2SD. That means MyIDE II is lot faster in transferring files, SIO2SD uses SD cards whereas MyIDE II uses CF cards, MyIDE II also has 512K SRAM (can be used as extended memory) and 512K Flash Ram MyIDE II is $70, SIO2SD is $87 My pick: MyIDE II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) PIA parallel data bus? I thought the PIA controlled the joystick ports, RAM banking and two unused SIO pins. MyIDE-II is a parallel IO device, magnitudes faster than an SIO device, which uses serial IO. However, MYIDE requires a customised operating system, which can be soft-loaded but works best with a replacement ROM-based OS. SIO2SD, meanwhile, works with a stock OS and offers maximum compatibility. Note: Atari8Warez sells SIO2PC devices. Edited January 1, 2015 by flashjazzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelmischief Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) I think a bit like you for the SD version. Btw, what is the difference between MyIDE-II and SIO2SD ? Which one should I buy then ? The SIO2SD offers a very focused subset of MyIDE-II features; namely, ATR/XFD/XEX mounting and boot. Also, SIO2SD attaches to the SIO chain, where MyIDE-II is a cartridge, offering parallel mass storage in addition to substantially faster drive emulation. You'll be told by some VERY smart and excellent people that the MyIDE-II is a great deal faster than the SIO2SD - and this is true - but I have never been able to figure out why it mattered. What is the difference between faster and MUCH faster. All of that said, the MyIDE-II crushes the SIO2SD in a cost/benefit comparison, IMHO. Edited January 1, 2015 by pixelmischief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelmischief Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 For one thing, with an SIO2PC you have access to terabytes of storage space, so no need to worry about filling up your SD card and buy some more. Secondly i find manipulating disk images a lot easier on a PC then on an atari, thirdly for development an SIO2SD just cannot match the flexibility of an SIO2PC. If the only thing you use the SIO device for is games or just loading a few apps then an SIO2SD is good enough. But that's just my opinion anyway. Why would anyone want access to "terabytes" of storage for a system whose entire library is under 2GB? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foft Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 So far only 2GB, wait until 2050:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Z Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 http://atariage.com/forums/topic/187482-4-atari-16mb-hard-disk-images-completed/?hl=%2Bdisk1.atr SIO2SD is a different device than SIO2USB. It allows plugging an SD (Sandisk) into your SIO port. You can put gobs (gigabytes) of stuff on it. I think it requires a special Atari OS, unlike SIO2USB. There has to be some fancy DOS and OS to access over 16 mb. I'm not familiar with SIO2SD. I'm not sure where you would get it. SIO2USB, and the needed PC APE or ASPEQT software are available from Atarimax.com and atari8warez.com (APE and ASPEQT respectively). I'm not sure I'm giving atari8warez correctly. There's also Lotharek, I think where SIO2SD device is. http://www.lotharek.pl I think you made an error here... SIO2USB does not use aspeqt or APE. perhaps you are thinking of an SIO2PC-USB? SIO2USB is a device similar to SIO2SD but using USB memory devices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russg Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 (edited) I think you made an error here... SIO2USB does not use aspeqt or APE. perhaps you are thinking of an SIO2PC-USB? SIO2USB is a device similar to SIO2SD but using USB memory devices. sorry, I meant the APE SIO2PC USB version (comes in RS232 and USB versions). Lotharek.pl also sells SIO2PC USB version. Edited January 1, 2015 by russg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Z Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 sorry, I meant the APE SIO2PC USB version (comes in RS232 and USB versions). Lotharek.pl also sells SIO2PC USB version. don't worry about it, a lot of people make the same mistake. It's just best to avoid confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted January 1, 2015 Share Posted January 1, 2015 don't worry about it, a lot of people make the same mistake. It's just best to avoid confusion. I think SIO2PC/USB would be a good name to use. SIO2PC over USB = SIO2PC = SIO2PC/USB USB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 SIO2PC is more versatile and flexible than the other solutions, but requires PC side software. Software like APE emulate "perhipherals" and not just disk drives. SIO2SD will have great compatibility with software, because it is just emulating the disk drive, but is only good for that one purpose. MyIDE II has some drawbacks, requirement for a custom OS is one of them. Without it, quite a bit of software will not work. Even with it, some rare software may not work (not sure how many titles with the newest OS though. Price is lower than SIO2SD. I guess it comes down to what you want to do with your Atari system, what software you want to run (multi-disk games? demos?) I personally have SIO2PC with APE, a SD solution (not the SIO2SD, the SDrive), and the older MyIDE system with internal MyIDE OS and MyIDE cartridge. Of those, I use the SIO2PC with APE the most, and secondly the internal MyIDE (and sometimes those two together since you need a way to get the games/software onto the IDE hard-drive). I don't ever use the SDrive system, I just don't find it very versatile or convenient in my setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) What is the difference between faster and MUCH faster. While a car is faster than a bicycle, a plane is much faster than the same. In SIO2SD vs.MyIDE II's case it really doesn't matter for small files, but makes a difference copying ATR's, especially the larger HD type ATRs And yes MYIDE II is a PBI (bus) device, not a PIA (chip) device. For some reason I always type PIA when I intend to use PBI, but thanks to INSTANT SPELLING CORRECTION feature of Atariage (long form for FJC) it's always corrected before it corrupts some poor Atarian's mind Edited January 2, 2015 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Why would anyone want access to "terabytes" of storage for a system whose entire library is under 2GB? Was just trying to think forward, and hoping to see some VBXE compatible graphics software that can manipulate larger graphics images than is currently possible with legacy GFX apps. Of course Terabytes of storage will still be too much, but you already knew that I used the word to imply "no limitation" anyway Edited January 2, 2015 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelmischief Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) In SIO2SD vs.MyIDE II's case it really doesn't matter for small files, but makes a difference copying ATR's, especially the larger HD type ATRs What would be the difference in user time for copying the full contents of a 16MB ATR if the source and destination drives are both emulated by SIO2SD vs. the same via MyIDE-II? I don't have my rig hooked up or I'd test it myself. Edited January 2, 2015 by pixelmischief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelmischief Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 Was just trying to think forward...Of course Terabytes of storage will still be too much, but you already knew that I used the word to imply "no limitation" anyway Right, "terabytes" means "unlimited" in this context. So let's "think forward" by first looking back. The Atari 8-Bit line came to life in 1979; 1980 to simplify. With the new year upon us, that's 35 years ago; 33.33, again to simplify it into 3 periods per century. With the current library at just under 2GB, we can project that the library grows at a linear rate of 6GB every 100 years. Even with the ridiculous constant of library growth over time, it would take 16,666 years for the library to reach 1 terabyte. Clearly, storage capacity is not a practical advantage of any modern solution over another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 What would be the difference in user time for copying the full contents of a 16MB ATR if the source and destination drives are both emulated by SIO2SD vs. the same via MyIDE-II? I don't have my rig hooked up or I'd test it myself. Not sure if MyIDE-II is as fast as SIDE/Ultimate/IDE Plus, etc (which all manage c. 65KB/s reads with PAL DMA enabled), but assuming it is, then the difference is considerable (maybe five or more times faster than SIO, typically?). The speed advantage of PIO os NOT limited to very large files. Just hook up an IDE Plus and do a COPY /R from one QD 32MB partition to another (or even one ATR to another, if using Ultimate/SIDE), and then try the same thing using two ATRs with SIO2xx. Clearly, storage capacity is not a practical advantage of any modern solution over another. Exactly. And right now, no available file system is capable of handling partitions or disk images of more than 32MB. But even when this limitation is lifted (which it soon will be), solid-state media will still offer sufficient storage space, coupled with - in the case of the PIO solutions - vastly superior transfer speeds. The more gargantuan the amount of accessible information becomes, the more of a bottleneck slow SIO data transfer becomes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelmischief Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 ...then the difference is considerable (maybe five or more times faster than SIO, typically?). Right. And that certainly matters from an academic standpoint. But my question is about "user time". If the difference is, let's say, one second vs. five seconds, then the practical impact is negligible. Scale that to minutes and it's a big deal. What is the real, user perceivable difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 What is the real, user perceivable difference? Well, it seemed massive to me. When I was developing the ATR mounting for Ultimate 1MB, I started using disk images to back up 32MB partitions, either using a sector copier or iteratively using "COPY /R" under SDX. I once benched the time it took to sector copy 32MB from a partition to a disk image using nothing but parallel IO. It was damned fast, and it saved a heap of time. Backing up to an ATR on the PC using SIO2PC is not something I would be so keen to undertake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 (edited) Right. And that certainly matters from an academic standpoint. But my question is about "user time". If the difference is, let's say, one second vs. five seconds, then the practical impact is negligible. Scale that to minutes and it's a big deal. What is the real, user perceivable difference? Yes, on a single operation the difference is negligible, but if you repeat that process many times over a period of time it does make a practical difference, but I agree for general use the difference is mostly the satisfaction obtained from having the fastest possible solution available to your 30+ y/o computer. Edited January 2, 2015 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gozar Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 I never understood why anyone used SIO2PC when SIO2SD is so easy and a disconnected, self-contained solution. With SIO2USB you have to run some software on your PC to serve the disk image. But with SIO2SD, you just pop an SD card with a bunch of ATR's into it and bang-o. Games. In my case, I use SIO2USB and Ape on a Thinkpad running Dropbox. All of my A8 stuff is in a folder in Dropbox (currently at 2.8GB) so I can easily use the same images/files with an emulator on my laptop or desktop computer along with my 800XL. Makes it really easy to download new stuff to try, I just put it in Dropbox. The Thinkpad is also wifi enabled, so I can put my 8-bit set up wherever I want. I've been thinking about switching to Bittorrent Sync for more space, but I currently have 10.9 GB for free in Dropbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelmischief Posted January 2, 2015 Share Posted January 2, 2015 All of my A8 stuff is in a folder in Dropbox (currently at 2.8GB) so I can easily use the same images/files with an emulator on my laptop or desktop computer along with my 800XL. Yeah, that makes sense. If you have a carefully curated collection that you want to access from multiple systems, this is the way. Or, if your disk images actually contain data you need to share between multiple machines - word processor files, spreadsheets, an Ultima IV Britannia disk - you'll want that. I guess I am a vastly less sophisticated user of the 8-Bit than some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) Right. And that certainly matters from an academic standpoint. But my question is about "user time". If the difference is, let's say, one second vs. five seconds, then the practical impact is negligible. Scale that to minutes and it's a big deal. What is the real, user perceivable difference? Here's a comparison that will perhaps put the whole thing in more perspective. Following videos show a file copy done in SIO speeds (D1: to D2) vs. the same copy done in PBI speeds (D6: to D7). SIO test uses an SIO2PC (at Pokey divisor 1, approx. 110Kbs) and a PC for storage, the PBI test uses an IDE+2 with CF card for storage. The total number of bytes copied in each scenario is 332KB (4 x ATR files) SIO TEST PBI Test Now you be the judge whether the difference is academic for you or not. IMO If you are moving a lot of files between the Atari and the offline storage the time difference will matter. Having said that I rarely use the IDE+2 as the SIO2PC is really good enough for my purposes. Edited January 3, 2015 by atari8warez 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelmischief Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 (edited) Here's a comparison that will perhaps put the whole thing in more perspective. Now you be the judge whether the difference is academic for you or not. IMO If you are moving a lot of files between the Atari and the offline storage the time difference will matter. Having said that I rarely use the IDE+2 as the SIO2PC is really good enough for my purposes. This is fantastic work! Thank you for doing it! Now for analysis. The test case is the full copy of 4 disk images totaling 332KB. The results were approximately 120 sec. for SIO and 15 sec. for PBI. Clearly, for this use case, the difference in user experience is vast! The fallacy, however, is that this is a common use case; especially for the op, who comes to us as a new Atari owner looking for advice on the right device to purchase. Let us, then, take the information and scale it down to the most common use case. Let us say that the most common use case is the complete load of a single, bootable disk image. That cuts the data size down to roughly 92KB; or 27%. Also, since reads and writes were done synchronously in the copy test (the data moved twice), the boot test will enjoy an additional duration divisor of 2. This means that, for the most common use case, SIO test times would scale to about 16 sec. ( 120 sec. * 27% / 2 ) and PBI times to around 2 sec. No practical impact. Edited January 3, 2015 by pixelmischief Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 3, 2015 Share Posted January 3, 2015 I can fill and turn on the kettle in under fourteen seconds. I'll take that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.