RVG Interviews John Mathieson.

[+CyranoJ]

I wouldn't be that surprised if one of the commercial Jaguar games came close to maxing out the system. I think one of the biggest problems with some of the games was the choise of game type or how poorly the graphic engines were used (probably due to low budgets limiting the variety of 3D models or resulting in less talented 3D modelers).

 

 

Anything that doesn't run at 60fps is maxing out the Jaguar. If it wasn't, it'd run faster. These threads are retarded

[Lost Dragon]

:-)

I love it how Rebellion are always judged it seems on Ch.Flag, which indeed was an utter piece of shit, yet what they got from Jaguar with AVP and Skyhammer are forgotten when it suits.

I've bought a lot of Rebellion's games over the years and as a developer they produce very mixed resuls:AVP on PSP was horrendous, the later 360/PS3/PC AVP dissapointing, as was Dredd Vs Death, but the original AVP on PC (not the re-vamped Gold Edition), Rogue Trooper and World War Zero i really enjoyed.

PC AVP yet to be bettered in numerous areas.

Whilst it's fantastic to think what could of been done commercially with the Jaguar hardware, had development tools been better, budgets larger etc, i'm personally of the belief that i've seen the best the Jaguar had to offer and developers really were not going to get much more from it than a few extra frames pers second using further optimised code.

Jaguar had it's strengths (clean textures etc), but i just cannot see this great untapped potential many think is there.

[Lost Dragon]

It's just my opinion, but i'm the type of consumer who, having bought his ill-fated hardware on day 1 (Mega CD and later the Jaguar) put enough cash into it to see what it did really well, games wise and was thankful i at least had them, so things like Final Fight, Batman Returns, Thunderhawk etc on MCD which used the hardware to great effect and AVP, Doom, Iron Solider and Rayman on Jaguar.

 

 

I also watched developers squander the potential off both-just slap an intro and some CD music on a MD cart game and chuck it out on MCD, spruce up the resolution, add few more colours etc, slap on a Jaguar cart etc.

 

But unless you had Atari do something like the performance analyzer Sony used on PS1 for example, to test software running on the hardware and it was given to all developers, how on earth were 3rd party developers like Rebellion supposed to get the best from what was pretty flawed hardware?

[Lost Dragon]

I'll end by quoting Ken Kutaragi, speaking about how he used his 'new weapon' as he called it, the Performance Analyzer, which he asked his engineers to build for PS1, to fuind out just how much unexploited power was left in the PS1:

 

Formula One (Psygnosis) according to the P.Analyer, was only using 50% of the PS1's potential, Tekken 2 uses only 30% to 40% and Tobal 2 used 90% of it's potential.

 

But (and this is the key) '...All games are different and it's very difficult to measure this thing exactly'.

 

You read interviews with Saturn developers who worked with the hardware, there's always something not being used in a certain area, lying idle even, but it was idle because it was of no use to what they were asking from the hardware.

 

I'm sure same could apply to Jaguar game development.

 

 

Given the megre budgets, Atari's policy of just get the damn thing out/make it look like a 3DO/Saturn/PS1 game and to hell with the frame rate!, i honestly consider myself lucky to of had the quality Jaguar games we got.

[Lost Dragon]

OK, question for Jag Chris and others who think we could of seen more from Jaguar hardware:

 

In your opinion, what would be more important from a commercial developer viewpoint:the fact they 'maxxed out' the Jaguar hardware or the fact they used the hardware in the most efficent way they could of, given the resources and time they had at the time?.

 

I ask, as i recal Climax Entertainment discussing the complex issues they had developing for Saturn (another complex platform to code for) and how they struggled, even with Sega support teams assistance, juggling 2X CPU's and game being delayed to market as a result.

 

They said iut was a nightmare trying to exploit hardware to 100% of it's ability, but they were glad they'd used the complex hardware in an efficent way and product had shipped in a finished state and made it to Saturn owners.

[JagChris]

 

:-)

I love it how Rebellion are always judged it seems on Ch.Flag, which indeed was an utter piece of shit, yet what they got from Jaguar with AVP and Skyhammer are forgotten when it suits.

Jaguar had it's strengths (clean textures etc), but i just cannot see this great untapped potential many think is there.

 

 

 

Rebellion is judged by their work ethic.

 

You probably missed the retelling of these stories in these threads how AvP had to be shipped back several times because they were half assing it. What we got while really cool at the time is rather simplistic when we look back at it. It looks cool because the Jaguar is good at doing that kind of fake 3D. I think Andrew Whittaker was the one who ran away from Checkered Flag yelling that's the best they could do or something. They are lazy. I have their first PC version of AvP and it's lazy work in that one too. Skyhammer looks alright.

 

Rebellion owes everything they are now to Atari and are only the authorities on how to half-ass something. And I'll stand by it.

[Lost Dragon]

Oh i'm well aware of the history of Rebellion, got stacks of interviews they did with C+VG, Edge etc, let alone those online and i took part in the community interview RVG carried out and i pulled them up on squandering the Judge Dredd game's potential, AVP on PSP and dumbing the PS3/360/PC AVP game down to the shambles it was.But i'm realistic enough to try and understand game development issues small teams working on complex, bugged hardware might encounter and i can praise them for what they got right.

 

Jaguar AVP was THE Alien game i'd waited years for, it's that simple and given how the public 'viewed' the Jaguar even with showcase titles like AVP and Skyhammer, i dread to think how it'd of fared had it lacked these 2 key titles.

 

At least with these Jaguar fans can roll them out (dated as theyt now are) to prove what the Jaguar was capable of and it was'nt just SNES/AMIGA/MD ports and awful VF/VR/MK clones etc.

[Lost Dragon]

My 'point' regarding this whole issue of just what else the Jaguar had to give, i guess is this:

 

From interviews i've read/carried out myself, so far i've yet to see anyone say they could of got much more from the Jaguar.

 

Hoverstrike CD coder said even pushing code to GPU etc he only got an extra 3-5 FPS from cart version, John Mathieson who worked on Jag 1+2 said he worked closely with developers, thinks they got all it had to give, Fight For Life coder admits if re-coded he could of got game running faster, but not by much, I.D's Dave Taylor and Andrew from Rebellion seem to think they got best from it...

 

So i'm simply left wondering who could of got more from where and used it to what effect?

 

Minter at least used the hardware in a manner designers had'nt planned.Full credit for that.

[sd32]

No system shows all its potential by its second generation of software, which was the point in which the Jag died. Hell, given the situations, even Doom was first gen.

About Hover Strike CD only managing around 5 extra FPS over the original, even pushing GPU code. Lets remember that the Jag CD brought more hardware quirks to work with. Actually, that little improvement in frame rate, made the game playable compared to the earlier cart version, but its the mediocre game design that makes it a poor game.

 

I remember interviews from the likes of Namco (on EGM) were they said that they tought they had pushed the Playstation to its limits with the original Ridge Racer... only to surpass it with Ridge Racer Revolution, then with Rage Racer, then with Ridge Racer Type 4.

And remember earlier in the PS1 life cycle when some teams failed to bring Quake 1 to the PS1?. A couple generations of software later, they managed even Quake 2 on it!

 

With the Saturn, first generation stuff like Virtual Fighter and Daytona looked underwhelming, and third parties were doing even worse. We Sega fans were all worried about its potential, but then we got second gen stuff like Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally which held their own againts anything on Playstation from the time. Not to mention that we missed on some amazing late generation stuff on Saturn, judging from the Saturn Shenmue demo, that in my opinion eclipses anything similar on PS1.

 

So, if the PS1 had died in 1997, before getting Quake 2, then it meant it didnt have enough potential to handle it or even Quake 1?. Or if Sega canned the Saturn after its first year, then the Saturns maximum potential only allowed for the so-so port of Virtual Fighter 1 and the horrible Criticom? (which is about as good as Fight for Life), yet years later we got Virtual Fighter 2, Dead or Alive and Last Bronx.

 

So, its logical to think is that had the Jag been a success, 5th generationg games on it would have kicked the crap out of the stuff we saw on it. And had the Jaguar, as it is, been a Nintendo or Sega system, even first generation games would have kicked the crap out of stuff like Cybermorph, Checkered Flag, etc, both from a technical point of view, and more importantly, gameplay wise. I mean, do you think Yu Susukis team, wouldnt have gotten more out of the Jaguar, for a 3d fighter, than the lone Fight for Life coder. Jaguar developers were undermanned, underpaid, didnt have decent tools, and were rushed.

 

Now, i dont think the jag could do stuff like Quake and Tomb Raider (i would love to be proven wrong, though), but it sure as hell cant have been maxed out by early its second gen of software.

[Lost Dragon]

Andrew Whittaker credited just for the Alien A.I routines in AVP, Jason Kingsley producer, Toby Banfield+stuart Wilson graphics, Justin Rae, Rob Dibley and Mike Beaton coding.That's a hellva small team to handle such a flagship project.

 

PS1 Quake:7 developers tried and failed to port the PC code over to PS1 and failed to get a decent version running, but then PS1 had far less Ram alone etc.Lobotomy by comparison used an engine designed for the Saturn hardware in mind to do Saturn Quake and said, if they had'nt been tied up with other Saturn projects, they'd of handled the PS1 Quake conversion.

 

As it was it took Hammerhead to bring Quake 2 to PS1 (they later brought Quake 3 to DC under supervision of John Carmack) so ALL PS1 needed was decent team to convert Quake properly.

 

Lets not forget PC Unreal was well along the way to being converted to the PS1 as well, before it was canned.

 

 

Also big, quality games require big teams, decent toolsets, etc, thus big budgets, something Atari simply did'nt have.

[JagChris]

He's just credit with the Alien A.I. routines? lol.

 

They just go in a straight line towards the player.

[Lost Dragon]

As they sadly did on Monolith's AVP 2 on PC, which whilst graphically superior, running on a newer engine than Rebellions PC AVP, lost so much of the atmosphere from AVP on PC.

And i've already vented on the patchy A.I in Alien Isolation.....which had a lot of pre-release hype about the Alien learning.

Least on Jaguar it was almost excusable, but on PC in Monolith's game and later Rebellions PC/360/PS3 game, let alone the disaster of Aliens:C.M it seems what was once gained has sadly been lost and developers only now taking brief steps towards getting back to the pinnicle of the Alien behaviour A.I from what? 15 years ago?.

Mind you, even with Jaguar AVP, reviewers moaned of Alien's acidic blood, so guess there's little hope of subject matter being done true justice in future games....

[NeoGeoNinja]

Still feel Iron Soldier and iron Soldier 2 (in particular) were the absolute pinnacle of what the Jaguar offered.

 

Regardless of all the negativity surrounding Rebellion in this thread (etc), it should be impossible to ignore how accomplished AvP and Skyhammer were 'for' Jaguar games too.

[+Stephen]

He's just credit with the Alien A.I. routines? lol.

 

They just go in a straight line towards the player.

Good lord - someone should read the PacMan dossier. Released in 1980 on a little Z-80, there were 4 highly sophisticated different A.I. code sets used. I say sophisticated in that they were pixel precise. Absolutely no excuse for anything released after 1980 to have enemy A.I just shooting off in a straight line towards the player.

[+Stephen]

Still feel Iron Soldier and iron Soldier 2 (in particular) were the absolute pinnacle of what the Jaguar offered.

 

Regardless of all the negativity surrounding Rebellion in this thread (etc), it should be impossible to ignore how accomplished AvP and Skyhammer were 'for' Jaguar games too.

This, while true, also shows poorly on the Jaguar. The absolute best it can do is medium resolution, low colour, low poly count, at 15FPS. Compare this to Gran Turismo 2 on the original PSX. 640*480 at 60FPS. Anyone thinking the Jag has a lot of untapped potential is seeing through more than rose coloured glasses.

[JagChris]

This, while true, also shows poorly on the Jaguar. The absolute best it can do is medium resolution, low colour, low poly count, at 15FPS.

 

The absolute best huh?

[Lost Dragon]

Rebellion's answer when i put the question to them of why the recent AVP game by them had far weaker A.I routines:

 

 

Rogue Trooper

 

The PC game had superb A.I routines for the Aliens, the ONLY game so far to really understand the Alien behaviour. You must have been proud of these and why didnt we see similar in the PC/PS3/360 game?

 

Jason Kingsley

 

Very proud of most of the stuff we have done, but I simply cant answer this as I dont know. I imagine there were design decisions taken to make the game easier to play and again more mass market.

 

 

As for the Jaguar's absolute best:

 

Whilst it's great to speculate on just what else could of been achived on Jaguar, to be brutally realistic, all we have to go on really are: The views of the people that worked on the hardware themselves at the time (most common view seems to be better coding could of resulted in improved frame rate, but not by much), the twlight era commercial games (Skyhammer great example, nearest Jaguar got to a G-Police game).

 

 

[Lost Dragon]

Speculation on what could of been done if Jaguar situation had been far better is great and believe you me, i'd love for 1 day someone to step forward with even just video footage of actual, honest-to-god Jaguar code being run of titles like MK3, Quake (no matter how early the code was), Freelancer 2120 (sorry, but only having seen the same screens shown to Gamesmaster etc over and over again, i need to see it running to judge how much of a potential flagship game it was) etc etc.

 

 

To make matters worse, games like C.Flag (or Redline Racer as it was then known) and Blue Lightning CD, actually looked FAR more impressive (and what many of expected from a 64-Bit system) in the early screens Atari used for marketing/preview purposes).

 

If we ever do see what Jaguar 'really' was capable of...as some claim, it could help the way the system is still regarded by many.

 

Until it appears though......

[Lost Dragon]

@SD32-Yep, i too saw the interviews with Namco where they talked about the Ridge Racer series on Playstation, the team said when they 1st released Ridge Racer, they honestly belived they'd gotten the best out of the hardware and reached some of the machines limitations and they were'nt wanting to develop RR4 for PS1.However it became a case of eliminating any waste and making full use of the PS1's polygon pushing power.

 

They used the PS1 performance Analyser to study RR4 PS1 code, find routines that could be improved etc and as a result 'squeezed-in' enviromental mapping, headlight effects, transparencies and Gouraud shading' the latter in particular team initally thought impossible to do, to the degree the team wanted.

 

So it showed just how important said analyser was for developers to get maximum from the PS1 hardware.

[sd32]

This, while true, also shows poorly on the Jaguar. The absolute best it can do is medium resolution, low colour, low poly count, at 15FPS. Compare this to Gran Turismo 2 on the original PSX. 640*480 at 60FPS. Anyone thinking the Jag has a lot of untapped potential is seeing through more than rose coloured glasses.

First of all, were did you get those Gran Turismo 2 numbers?, i tought it was 320*240 at 25 FPS. Your numbers are way too high.

 

Your comparison is unfair, Gran Tursimo 2 was released in late 1999, 5 years after the release of the Playstation, a game done by an inhouse team from Sony, whom had tons and tons of budget an resources (like the Playstation Analyser) to push the console to its limits. Besides, you only need a Playstation first generation racer like Ridge Racer to beat anything the Jaguar released, hehe.

 

Iron Soldier was a third party game, by a small team, that had to code it without any decent tools. It was also basically a first generation game on the Jaguar.

 

I am in not way saying that the Jaguar had the potential to even come close to the Playstation when it came to textured mapped polygons or do stuff like Tomb Raider and Quake. The PS1 was designed with that in mind, the Jaguar wasnt. PS1 was newer technology released later, so duh.The Jag though, could hold its own in 2d, and from what i have read, voxel based graphics.

 

So i will just have to agree to disagree with fellow posters who think the Jag was maxed out when it just barely got to its second gen of software, by little unknown teams, with shitty tools, and badly paid. No games console has ever gotten maxed out by its second gen of software by mostly third rate software houses.

 

Damn, do i sound like a bitter Jag fan, or what?, hehe.

[Lost Dragon]

Mentioned V-Rally developer bypassing Sony's PS1 libaries and coding directly to the GPU to get best performance, but they were'nt the only ones, coders of Tunnel B1 discovered by accident, how to access some functions in the libaries Sony had provided for the early development kits, that were'nt in the supplied documents and they ran a lot faster, so they went with them and by-passed what was then Sony standard approaches to coding for PS1.

 

But accidents and clever coding aside, the impact the Playstation Analyser had, for developers working on the hardware cannot be understated.Without it, game development from a technical point of view i feel, would of peaked far earlier.

 

Also as SD32 points out, you compare size of teams Atari had/could afford compared to those Sony had at it's 'disposal'...real chalk and cheese in terms of talent and numbers.

 

Sony had the resources that Atari could only dream of.

[Bryan]

If you look at a systems like the 2600 and NES, they got pushed and pushed because they remained commercially viable for so long. I'm sure the Jag could do some new tricks with enough experimentation but during the life of the console you needed an economic reason to invest that kind of time in problem solving. A console that doesn't return good results quickly becomes a bad investment.

 

No one's ever going to get the most out of any modern console because they're not meant to developed on that way. You just take what the libraries give you and call it a day.

[NeoGeoNinja]

This, while true, also shows poorly on the Jaguar. The absolute best it can do is medium resolution, low colour, low poly count, at 15FPS. Compare this to Gran Turismo 2 on the original PSX. 640*480 at 60FPS. Anyone thinking the Jag has a lot of untapped potential is seeing through more than rose coloured glasses.

 

Might just be me, but the IS seem to run at nearer to 60fps. I realise that I think you are relating to AvP/Skyhammer here, but the IS games look and play great. Great sense of scale, fully destructible environments, nice open environments too. Being able to see parts of your mech whilst walking etc is a nice touch most FPS-esque title didn't have. Nice solid gameplay too. Game felt next gen in how it seemed unrestrictive. IS2 for Jag/CD is really good.

 

I don't feel the Jag had much more to give, overall, however, had the games created been to the standard of IS1 & IS2 (look how visually improved IS2 is > IS1 btw, in such a short window) and, as SD32 said earlier, had the console had a longer lifespan (impossible, just being hypothetical) and hardware revisions been improved (re: bugs removed etc), had bigger teams got involved and so on... then the possibility of better and greater games isn't an impossible thought (i.e. a fully fledged AVP2 being handled by a TEAM over at I.D. for example, etc).

 

It IS pointless to guess as to what this could or couldn't have been, as history is written. But it's not impossible to objectively theorise these improvements and advancements based on how every other successful console evolves over time. At the end if the day, the jaguar is what it is and should ONLY be enjoyed as such instead of a missed opportunity or a whimsical bag of 'what ifs?'.

 

No rose tinted glasses involved: The IS games are great

[Lost Dragon]

The Iron Solider Edge preview i think said what frame rate game was running at then, but buggered if i have it to hand (sorry guys).

 

Whatever it was or went onto be, I.S series nailed the essential element of feeling like you were in control of a weapon of great destruction, that the texture-mapped splendour of Metal Head on 32X sadly never delivered for myself and later games like Slave Zero on Dreamcast seemed to lack as well (also no real sense of scale).

 

I.S series for myself will always remain a flagship example of Jaguar hardware being used 'wisely' in terms of superb explosions, graphics not being seen as the be all and end all of the title or main focus, which seemed to be the case in Metal Head...and just delivering THE best god damn Mech game for an age before and after.

 

 

Team delivered in spades.]

[+Stephen]

 

The absolute best huh?

With everyone saying that AVP (not even true 3D), Skyhammer, and Iron Soldier, then yes. I like my Jag, I own an almost complete collection. But it was not a good machine for 3D, plain and simple.