Lost Dragon Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 For years now, people have used the screenshots shown in the likes of the Atari Jaguar supplement, given away free in Edge, yet paid for by Atari as 'Proof' Tomb Raider was headed to Jaguar CD and the hardware could of handled it, etc etc.Well it's taken me months of searching and emailing, but today, i recived an email from the man responsible for said supplement and.... 'I have no recollection of actually seeing anything running on a Jaguar at all. That said though, you’re right; we definitely acquired mock up screen shots and paraded them around as in-development projects. Also, I wouldn’t have lied to journalists and pretended those screen shots were something they weren’t. I’d have said they were mock ups of a title coming to Jaguar. Also, we were very much in the Sega camp in the early 1990s with titles like Chuck Rock, Thunderhawk and Jaguar XJ 220 being massive hits. ' So there you have it.Said shots were Mock Ups, not actual, honest to god Jaguar screens. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 (Cont) good old UK press passing off faked shots as in-game.They did it with Saturn Alien trilogy (Mean Machines using CGI cutscene shots as in-game at preview stage) and now Atari/Edge with Tomb Raider on Jag CD.So anyone thinking they were on Jaguar can now think again. My source also went on to say: ' If Jeremy Heath-Smith had said we’d be publishing Tomb Raider on Jaguar, it would have been all guns blazing about it at the time (although I cannot recall that situation)'. Think this is yet another Jaguar Lost game claim in some very serious doubt now.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 You will now be known as "Lost Dragon - Crusher of Dreams" on AA. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 Ohh trust me, i'll be called far, far worse elsewhere after this breaks. For so long, those damn Edge screens were paraded around and yes, it's taken months to get as much info as possible from as many sources, but the hours paid off.They were mocked screens and the bloody press knew they were. I initally tried going after the coders, when that delivered mixed results, i sought magazine interviews, again best that came of that was games Mega CD 'roots' so, thinking outside the box, i looked for people who'd have worked on the very advertising supplement and..BINGO.... FULL interview will be uponline and has been offered as an exclusive to certain Physical magazine people might know on here :-) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 Another 'snippet' from said interview: it didn’t do us any harm with speculation rife about certain products in development either. The advent of social media has ruined the idea that any company can just keep quiet about things like we used to 20 years ago. Lost Dragon...pestering folk till they spill the beans.... :-) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Great work anyway, it shows what actually researching instead of just copy-pasting ancient facts can do. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 I'm not going to pass my self off as any sort of investigative 'Jurnolist... I've just become both interested in finding FACT behind fiction and into looking into how the industry as a whole worked back then and whats changed now. Anyone can say i wrote an article for...ergo, i'm an expert in my field, but if you've not done even the basic level of research, it will show to the reader. I'll happily admit my 'stuff' is dire in terms of needing spell checking, proof reading etc etc, but i'm NOT doing it for money, just love of material, nor to put on a C.V or hope it'll land me a job with.... Plus whatever comes in, i share.Put the 'snippets' up on here, other lost game sites, give magazines like Classic Console/ST Gamer or websites like 3DO Forum/sega Forum/GTW/Grumpy Old Gamers etc the full interviews as 'exclusives' and Link to them so ALL can benifit. Information should be shared freely, is'nt that what net is for? (other than Porn, email and funny cat pics?) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 You will now be known as "Lost Dragon - Crusher of Dreams" on AA. Probably for the better. Some people here could use a good kick in the rear. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerosquare Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) I don't want to belittle your work, but was anyone still hoping a Jaguar version of Tomb Raider existed? We've seen that most of the Jaguar games which were announced at some point, but never came out, were only barely started, or even never existed at all. Any "lost" game should be considered vaporware unless there is solid proof of the contrary (I said "solid proof", so PR and game magazines don't count). Edited January 7, 2015 by Zerosquare 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 I've no concerns Zerosquare, did'nt take your post as an attempt to belittle my 'work' (though time would be a more suitable phrase maybe :-) ). I've never bought into the claim of Tomb raider starting out on Jag CD, and the more i uncovered via magazine interviews at 1st, then chatting to coders from Core, etc the more certain i was.I just simply needed to..'understand' how it was clearly fake screens were being passed off in the press and taken as gospel as a result, by certain individuals and then how the line was simply belived so often. I've seen enough youtube video's etc with PC/Saturn/3DO footage being lumped together as some form of 'proof' these games existed on Jaguar, let alone the articles written or listings put up, so i just thought why not clear any confusion up once and for all. I'm sure it'll still be disbelived by some or like Creature shock, passed off as no big deal etc. But i do believe the communities have the right to get the insights on claims UK press alone made back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+xucaen Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 In the software design world, a "mock up" is a preliminary design. If it is, as you say, a "mock up" of Tomb Raider for the jaguar, then Tomb Raider was definitely being designed for the Jaguar. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 In the software design world, a "mock up" is a preliminary design. If it is, as you say, a "mock up" of Tomb Raider for the jaguar, then Tomb Raider was definitely being designed for the Jaguar. No. A fake screenshot does NOT mean something is being developed for a system. If so, I could pad my resume with designs for 20 additional pieces of hardware, all by doing a quick image conversion in Paint. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
108 Stars Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 (edited) A "mock up" is a fake screenshot, depicting what a game will supposedly look like. Has been done in games since Atari 2600 days. It is at the very best the actual targeted look of the product grounded in experience and early work, if not even altogether a very loose interpretation. It can use actual assets, flicked together from in-game artwork, placeholders or stuff running on PC. Or it can be completely made up from scratch. I think I recall the infamous 2600 Hulk game promoted via screenshots in catalogues... eventhough apparently no line of code was ever written for it. A wide array is possible. Jag TR mock up was most likely pictures of some engine demos running on PC, or test stuff created when they thought of a Mega-CD release. Just polish it up and have something to show for the next best next gen hardware, just to have something to get attention. I don't want to belittle your work, but was anyone still hoping a Jaguar version of Tomb Raider existed?We've seen that most of the Jaguar games which were announced at some point, but never came out, were only barely started, or even never existed at all. Any "lost" game should be considered vaporware unless there is solid proof of the contrary (I said "solid proof", so PR and game magazines don't count). In the end, there is always the fans that believe and repeat what they want to believe, and never give up hope that some scrap of executable software remains of the game. It is nice to see rumors buried when you see them pop-up time and again over the years... eventhough I am aware that Lost Dragon's research will not put the rumors to rest forever... maybe they are repeated less frequently.^^ Edited January 7, 2015 by 108 Stars 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 I'm not 'saying' anything, as i was'nt head of marketing for Core, nor was i the one who provided the Mock up screens... :-) Richard was and issaying is, he was given 'mock up or concept shots of Core's biggest new game for years to 'hawk' if you like to the press at the time, but making it very clear to said press these were exactly that, mock up screens. I'm also happy to re-quote Adrain Smith from Jan 1996 'we already had sketches and ideas about the game for about a year before we even finished BC Racers (Mega CD)' , but i'm not saying game was designed for Mega CD either. All i'd (personally) say is based on what i've read/asked and had answered, it's clear Core had concept or roots of Tomb Raider in-house long before the Jaguar arrived, they just needed the technology for the concept to be able to be made a reality, clearly tinkered on various platforms, settled on PS1, Saturn and PC and had the sense not to start a project of such size until they knew the format/s it was planned for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 I'm saying after i read Core's interview in Edge, i approached the Core Design people i'd already put questions to via RVG interview, they could'nt help, i tracked down coder of BC Racers, few other Core design staff, same result, managed to get Jeremy smith's buisness email, was personally vouched for by his buisness partner, never heard anything back, so looked further, contacted Gavin Rummery who worked on Tomb Raider, shared his information as it came in.Approached Stuart Atkinson, inital contact made, but despite a few chase emails heard nothing back, so thought out the box and went after the marketing angle, cue interview which i've shared snippets with, full 'piece' given to both a friends website and passed onto a Physical magazine, both for free. And given my personal feelings on why i never belived the claim and how despite putting in the hours to do a decent level of research, i'm not a 'jurnolist' nor do i take money for my 'work', nor am i an ex-poster, posting under a new user name :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 Again as Richard himself said (and i clearly posted) : 'it didn’t do us any harm with speculation rife about certain products in development either' See, a common practice even back then (your talking 20 years+) was simply to plant the seed as it were: Core Design working on major new franchise (Tomb Raiders as it was known then), get your PR manager to 'do the rounds' with some tasty screenshots knocked up on powerful PC's etc, he then informs press these are just that, created for purpose of generating early interest in said game, NOTHING more, but your simply not going to have your PR dept.writing in, month after mag has started the hype thanks to your screens, saying..now come on Edge, you and i both know final game is months away, christ we have'nt even decided on a platform, i dunno...you guys..., are you?. No, if your worth your salt in terms of PR you let the Press run with it, get word of mouth out there and steadily drip feed information, new screens and nuture the hype.It worked as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+xucaen Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 No. A fake screenshot does NOT mean something is being developed for a system. If so, I could pad my resume with designs for 20 additional pieces of hardware, all by doing a quick image conversion in Paint. Mockups don't qualify for a resume just like it doesn't qualify for a released game. A mock up is a preliminary design tool. If you failed to understand all the words on my comment then you should probably refrain from replaying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Willy Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 While the mock-ups do indicate it wasn't being worked on, the Jaguar COULD have run Tombraider. Not as good as the PSX, but good enough. Hell, the PC version ran on a slow 386 with plain VGA graphics - not very well, but it still ran. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 We're in danger of loosing focus here. What the interview (which should be going live this afternoon if all is well) 'proves' is this: 1)Core hawked a major new I.P for them, to the UK press etc using false or mocked shots.A common practice then, let alone now.Class it as target or concept renders, designed to give the press and public an idea of what the game was about.The press knew these screens were not actual in-game screens, but for whatever reason, decided NOT to inform the readers of this fact, Core were happy to let the hype build based on these inital shots and just released actual early shots from PC/PS1 and Saturn versions when they were ready. Again, standard drip-feed procedure for a high profile game. 2)Had Tomb Raiders as it was then known, actually been in development for the Jaguar CD, Jeremy Smith would of instructed his PR department to 'shout it from the roof tops', said instructions were not given, nothing seen running on Jaguar etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 (Cont.) 3)I also asked Richard had perhaps Sega and Atari put any 'pressure' on Core to be 'seen' to be backing the likes of the Jaguar and 32X (so impression was given they had good 3rd part support in place etc), Richard said: 'No. I can categorically say that we were not under any pressure whatsoever from either Sega or Atari.' So again, if it 'proves' anything there was no deliberate 'ploy' by Atari to miss-lead readers of the Jaguar supplement.Again bit of investigative work there on my part. Look at the interview as more a look into the way UK press handled promotional material, decided for what ever reason, not to give the readers the full facts behind material they were handling etc, plus as a 'device' to stop people hawking screens around saying behold, i'm a Lost Jaguar Games expert as Edge had 'proof' T.R started out on Jaguar CD. Proof as they say is in the pudding, i just reached out to the cook and asked about the what was actually in the pudding mix. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyfox Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Wow, this is mad, it just goes to show you, the power of the press, can produce and disillusion people as set in stone of games that were set to appear on consoles back in the day, this reminds me when Microsoft did something similar on the Original Xbox, adding fault photoshop lens flares into one of their launch snow boarding titles passing it off as photo realistic was a complete lie lol, hence to say they didn't do that again afterwards ever again and would be ripped a new one today if they tried to deceive gamers. But very well done on your exceptional research , you've just made the folk who claimed these were real look like complete morons who are as naive to claims to such ridiculous statements put in their place lol. Although I'm not a huge fan of the jaguar, I'll have to read this interview for the scoop, and let it been a lesson to you all, don't be stupid and believe everything you see, always do proper research like Lost Dragon has before making an idiot of yourself and looking like the class clown 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Thanks for the kind words Greyfox-It's my nature not to take things at 'face value' just because a magazine i've paid for has it stated, does'nt mean it's a fact, as i've found out so many times in past 18 months+ alone. As soon as i saw the claims that Tomb Raider started out as a Jaguar CD game, i went hmmmn.....as, like i've said before on here, when Core's other PR manager, Susie H. was talking to C+VG about Core's then Next Gen plans, Saturn, 32X and PS1 were mentioned along, but Jaguar never even came up in conversion. I knew i'd seen Core design interviewed a few times in EDGE, dug out said interviews a bingo, games actual origins were back in the MCD era, reasons explained technology then could'nt bring game to a workable state, in terms of a camera system alone. Next step was to talk to the Ex-Core Design coders i knew, they could'nt help, so starting looking for fresh contacts, some never replied, some did, again what ever came in, i shared with the communities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 I tracked down Jeremy smith via an interview i'd done for ST Gamer Vol 2.No joy from him, so next obvious step seemed to be to go after people/person who'd put Edge's advertising supplement together-A gamble sure, but it paid off alright. Thing i personally take away from the interview is this: Over the years people have blamed marketing for creating false expectation for Atari products, be it Lynx screens or Jaguar ones, all looking far better than games delivered or would of looked, yet here it's clear there was NO attempt to pull any wool over the eyes of the Press by Core, let alone at request of Atari.Richard was 100% honest with them, they decided NOT to be the same with the readership. MS well, i recal that 9 Min E3 Halo 2 demo being created just for E3, final game had elements from said demo, but i'd rather of played the 9 Min demo, than FULL SP Campain on Halo 2 Xbox (another regreted Day 1 purchase from myself). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 From a human study perspective, it is often curious to watch from the sidelines to see how people respond once an established 'Myth' is 'broken'. I've still never found this fabled I'D talking about Quake running on Jaguar etc, just shared the Edge interview i had, plus found and spoke to Dave Taylor to give an alt.I.D viewpoint of the Jaguar. When i shared the information from Darryl Still+Mike Fulton regarding Jaguar CD Creature Shock (Atari wanting, not being able to afford, could'nt pin Jez down, generic FMV converted etc) it was claimed (elsewhere) Darryl never said that, laughable as i copied his text straight from the email he sent me.I also paid to have the Edge interview with Jez put up on here etc, Jez being open and saying why they never did any Jaguar games (platform too big a risk), next thing oi'm hearing..Ohh game no big loss, not like a Phear or Dact.Joust etc. Never said game was a killer-app myself, just that after looking into it, this was actually what became of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 People can think what they like of me personally, my work, think i'm a banned poster from here with masked I.P etc and yep, my grammar etc is dire, but the info i put up is 100% as it comes in, unaltered, straight from the source. And as long as like Atari Age, Grumpy Old Gamers, 3DO Forum, GTW, Unseen64, Sega Forum etc along with publications like Classic Console Gamer, ST Gamer, Return, Pro-Atari etc etc exist, i'm happy to put the hours and effort in, to get them exclusive material and insights into games we did see and those we did'nt, along with looks into the inner-workings of the industry. I'm not asking for payment or to be seen as anything different to any other poster, i just like finding out why a game never appeared and believe information should be shared freely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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