NeoGeoNinja Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 Wipeout on PS1 again, ruined by controls, was'nt until 2097 i 'got' the game and whilst... Nope. Ruined by your inability to control the vehicle effectively enough as to not suffer the severe consequences of in-game collisions WipEout was, and still is, pretty much perfect. 2097 was just easier due to the possible grinding, but the sole mechanics and physics, for the most part, remained pretty much the same. Certainly not enough to pedestal 2097 > WO1 with any significant margin, gameplay wise. The visuals and presentation are obviously a different matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) being a N64 gamer from day 1, M64 was not as fabulous as expected (played better 3d games on PC and Amiga) but of course the most horrible aspect of the N64 were the foggy visuals, obviously a N64 hardware fault which affected most games. On the other hand Tomb Raider on PS was a pixelated mess and many PS games suffered from pop-ups. ( still love my PSX though) Edited April 27, 2015 by high voltage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 :-) I have to admit stuff like using the airbrakes properly on Wipeout did my head in, but nothing came close to that 'prove yourself' opening bit on PS1 Driver.You bloody what? i have to prove me bloody driving skills before i start game, proper? you wretched bas*ards, i've paid for this, i want to get stuck reet in here and now... As for the PS1 VS N64 debate, would Sir/Madam like blocky pixelly mess or blurry mess? and we'll be serving heavy fogging with both :-) Loved both platforms for their key games, but returning to them now...Gulp! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 being a N64 gamer from day 1, M64 was not as fabulous as expected (played better 3d games on PC and Amiga) but of course the most horrible aspect of the N64 were the foggy visuals, obviously a N64 hardware fault which affected most games. On the other hand Tomb Raider on PS was a pixelated mess and many PS games suffered from pop-ups. ( still love my PSX though) The fogginess/smearing/blurring was minimized a great deal with the use of an S-VIDEO connection over composite or RF. Lode Runner 64, as one example, I found unplayable over composite, but once I used an S-VIDEO connection, the visuals were markedly sharper. Let's face facts, though, first generation real 3D overall was a mess because there wasn't much memory for reasonable textures and the overall resolution and polygon counts were relatively low. It really wasn't until the Dreamcast that 3D was starting to be polished to the point where 3D visuals were undeniably pleasing. With that said, it's important we don't take the games then out of the context of their era. Even with the visual issues of Tomb Raider, at the time, it was still a revelation. Certainly it's hard to go back now, but the point is at the time it was something special even if it's hard to see why today. I liken the above to handhelds like the Game Gear, Lynx, Nomad, Turbo Express, etc., being used today. It's very difficult to accept these screens with modern eyes without a proper screen mod in place. Back when they were current, however, the washed out screens, the motion blurring, etc., weren't really going concerns because we weren't used to anything else. Today, it's quite different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The washed out/ghosting/screen blur issues on Game Gear and Lynx i could 'handle' back in the day Bill, that wretched GB screen though, not a cat in hells chance.It physically stopped me getting into the GB then and in later years when i was given one as a gift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) so basically Mario 64 was foggy, Tomb Raider a pixel mess, Ridge Racer pop-ups, wretched Gb screen, but Tempest 2000 was actually perfect. end of story Edited April 27, 2015 by high voltage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 The washed out/ghosting/screen blur issues on Game Gear and Lynx i could 'handle' back in the day Bill, that wretched GB screen though, not a cat in hells chance.It physically stopped me getting into the GB then and in later years when i was given one as a gift. Yeah, I specifically didn't mention the GB because even back then the vast majority of us thought the screen was absolutely dreadful. Not so much for the other handhelds I mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 T2K got the benefit of being abstract. That helps where the other efforts hurt. As for the pixel mess, blurry, etc... many people were playing these games on a composite connection, standard definition TV, and those two things tend to smear and smudge a lot, which helped a lot with things like poly count and texture depth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 The washed out/ghosting/screen blur issues on Game Gear and Lynx i could 'handle' back in the day Bill, that wretched GB screen though, not a cat in hells chance.It physically stopped me getting into the GB then and in later years when i was given one as a gift. How could you afford all that but not a $5 bluetooth keyboard? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 it's all about priorities 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 :-) I was a lot younger when i had my Lynx and Game Gear, different job/profession, lot of overtime every week, no car, you name it...money to burn. These days..... :-(. Mind you back then i'd buy games on day 1 of release, ditto new hardware so learnt a lot over the years, mind you back then new hardware had games i actually wanted to play, unlike cough..current state of affairs with PS4/XB1.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 (edited) :-) I was a lot younger when i had my Lynx and Game Gear, different job/profession, lot of overtime every week, no car, you name it...money to burn. These days..... :-(. Mind you back then i'd buy games on day 1 of release, ditto new hardware so learnt a lot over the years, mind you back then new hardware had games i actually wanted to play, unlike cough..current state of affairs with PS4/XB1.... Those were the good old days...got my Jaguar from Daniels in Windsor, brandnew, still got the receipt. Edited April 28, 2015 by high voltage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 :-) Look at my buying history back in those days: A Mega CD on Day 1, based purely on a promo VHS tape given away with Mean Machines and what was 1 of the 1st titles you bought with it? Jaguar XJ220 and i hate racing games of this ilk......... An Atari Jaguar £229 (i think) from Silica shop, based purely on AVP preview on Gamesmaster TV show and previews in Gamesmaster magazine of Freelancer etc? Had more money coming in than sense, that was for sure.Thought of 'investing' or saving for the future, pffff...never even gave it a second thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I remember paying GBP 79.00 for AvP at some computer show in London, wow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 @High Voltage:You remember the early days of Atari Uk's spokespeople 'expecting' the Jaguar 'Mega Carts' as they were then being refered to, to come in at the same level of aggressive pricing as the hardware, i.e around £20...things turned out rather different there. I shudder to think how much i paid for Cannon Fodder on Jaguar (think i ordered the bloody thing from Telegames) a game i'd played years before on my Brother in laws A500....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I love it and I enjoy it a lot, but I honestly beleive its reputation as one of the greatest games ever is a direct result of Jaguar owners desperate to cling on to something that validates the machine. If it really was a genuine contender for one of the best games ever than why do versions for both Saturn and PS1 sit there largely ignored and considered nothing more than decent games amongst many others. Both games are never included in even top ten lists for either system which is strange for a title supposedly as good as tempest is, especially considering the Saturn ended up with a not so big library. Its a non event when released on other systems, still agreat game, but with the reputation bestowed upon it by jag owners then surely it should have more of an impact, and this is on 2 other systems, not just 1. So was its reputation just artificially created as a really good game on a system where it outshone most other releases, is it a classic case of big fish in a small pond but disspperas amongst the rest when intrduced into a bigger pond. You're also missing the context. I had a Jaguar when it was "new". Atari did a big push on how it was a "64-bit powerhouse", but a lot of the initial games weren't considered fun in reviews or anything more than babysteps at best. Look at the first games ... Cybermorph was compared to Star Fox, and considered gloomy looking and not a big step up Trevur McFurr looked great but was considered boring and dull Dino Dudes looked like it walked off the SNES Club Drive was considered kind of an ugly boring polygon game When Tempest 2000 came out, it was the first game that made people really take notice. It got great reviews. It was considered fun. it sold well. I definitely wouldn't consider it to be the greatest thing of all time, but in the time it came out, it was the first real "must have" game for the Jaguar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 You also had Raiden, slamned by press for not being what was expected on '64-Bit' hardware, lot of browns being used, big old ST-style staus panel down 1 side etc. Anywho back on topic. Tempest 2000 seemed to have inspired a good few clones other than Typhoon (PC) and the Amiga clone i linked to earlier in this thread (i think it was here) you also had Jonty Barnes/Glenn Corpes Tube: http://www.mobygames.com/game/tube So it's influence can clearly be 'felt' in the industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Tempest 2000 seemed to have inspired a good few clones other than Typhoon (PC) and the Amiga clone i linked to earlier in this thread (i think it was here) you also had Jonty Barnes/Glenn Corpes Tube: http://www.mobygames.com/game/tube So it's influence can clearly be 'felt' in the industry. In terms of influence, though, we really do have to go back to the original arcade version. I have no doubt though that some games took inspiration, particularly from the psychedelic stylings. As for "Tube," I don't know the game, but it looks more like a tunnel runner/racer than a tube shooter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DracIsBack Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 You also had Raiden, slamned by press for not being what was expected on '64-Bit' hardware, lot of browns being used, big old ST-style staus panel down 1 side etc. Anywho back on topic. Tempest 2000 seemed to have inspired a good few clones other than Typhoon (PC) and the Amiga clone i linked to earlier in this thread (i think it was here) you also had Jonty Barnes/Glenn Corpes Tube: http://www.mobygames.com/game/tube So it's influence can clearly be 'felt' in the industry. Yeah - I knew I forgot one. I loved Raiden but it definitely wasn't next gen looking haha. I'm not sure Jeff Minter himself would say it was one of the "greatest games ever". But I think most Jaguar fans considered it the first "must have" Jaguar game, quickly followed by "Alien vs. Predator". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 @Bill:From Jonty himself: 'Tube was a coverdisk project i did with Glenn Corpes.Glen had come up with a graphics render to wrap a map around a tube and there was a lot of inspiration around Jeff Minters Tempest game.There was talk about wether or not we could come up with something like that with Glenn's technology'. David Crookes superb:Revisiting Bullfrog 25 Years On feature, RG issue 110. Same issue has fantastic interview (in the chair with..) with Jeff Minter where he admits the ship in Defender 2000 was too big (along with everything else), but details how it could of been better, had Atari not been pushing him in directions he did'nt really want to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Same issue has fantastic interview (in the chair with..) with Jeff Minter where he admits the ship in Defender 2000 was too big (along with everything else), but details how it could of been better, had Atari not been pushing him in directions he did'nt really want to go. I'm glad to see him having said that. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I always found Defender 2000 gaudy with those sprites. It was the trend in the 90s to have big, gaudy (and often rendered) sprites, and I never saw the appeal. To me, the aesthetic beauty of 80s sprites has never really been exceeded until relatively recently when the visuals could be seamless and ultra high resolution, ala games like Rayman Legends, Child of Light, Valiant Hearts, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Rendered sprites were like so stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Jeff admitted in said RG piece, he was'nt as fond as Defender 2000 as he was Tempest 2000 and because he was then an employee of Atari, he ended up being pushed a bit hard in directions he did'nt want to go.He reminds us 1st it was going to be a cart game, then, once they wanted it on CD-Rom, Atari wanted: hand-drawn artwork, big sprites and parallax layers.Jeff's plan had been more along lines of Defender Plus Mode, ie retain small graphics from orig, but with Plasma effects in the background. But as we all know, game ended up back on cart and to be fair, Jeffs Dad was dying of Cancer at the time, so it must of be a truely horrendous period for Jeff :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I'm a bit surprised Jeff didn't really like the direction of Defender 2000 when his own work on the Konix version of mutant camels had similarly oversized graphics. But from what I've read of the project jeff was pretty much just a programmer, and not involved in the design like he was with T2K. Personally I like D2K but am admittedly not a fan of the original defender. I think there's a bit of a learning curve involved in multi-tasking between the playfield and the map but ultimately it makes it the kind of slightly unconventional game that's worth checking out despite the countless other defender clones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Hard to 'judge' Jeff's outlook on things just by going by the many interviews/column pieces etc he's done over the years sometimes as comments often seem to go again'st the grain of what was said earlier, as mentioned earlier else where, he'd talk of wanting to do something more original, rather than just update a classic again..then volia his next project? another Vic-20 update or take on Tempest or Defender. But to be fair, we never know if anything was cut from any of the interviews so quotes might of ended up out of context? Plus as you say, he seemed keen on over large ships before he started on Defender 2000 and whilst he's admitted he's no graphics designer, it was his decision to go with choices made in things like ST Defender 2, Llamazap, Konix version of Camels etc etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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