Commercially successful Jaguar

[Lost Dragon]

There seemed to be the feeling that when Sega annouced it's MD Home VR System and later Atari with the Jaguar VR System, that both were little more than headline grabbing experiments.The industry and indeed public, seemed savy enough to know the hardware at the time lacked anything like the power to make Home VR a truely belivable experience and this was little more than Sega+Atari trying to show they were investing in future technology, being at the 'cutting edge' of home entertainment as it were, as VR then seen as the 'Next Big Thing' and it'd keep the spotlight on them, whilst they worked on more powerful hardware that might bring the dream of Home VR closer to reality.

 

Here we are, X amounts of years on and step forward Sony etc with newer technology, far more powerful hardware etc yet still a huge amounbt of convincing to do...

 

So much for the planned PSP-PS3 and PS4-Vita link-up, use handheld as 2nd screen ideas or PS3 Eyetoy or Move etc.It takes more than a concept to get things established.

[Atlantis]

 

20 years later and VR still isn't 100%... if you seriously believe Atari could have made that work with no budget, a Jaguar, some candles and some lynx sized screen........

IF Atari DID did get money from Jag it could have been used to break into new dimensions people kind of believed was the future back then. It is not likely, but they did develop the VR helemet for some reason...

 

But as we now today: They didn't make any money so they had no alternatives -- bankruptcy, bye, bye video game market thanks for early 80's that paid our salaries.

 

That is what I could imagine as an alternative on the project table for lets say 3 weeks before scraps.

 

= Atari had no alternatives, as I did point out. That is the bottom line.

[Bill Loguidice]

If you are video computer system company, who will need to bring in money to pay for offices, computers, employment salary and so on, even though you cut down letting people go, at some point you need to re-enter your market (video games) and try your best to bring in money to your company by often put all eggs in the same basket (or two).

 

They did try Lynx two times, big Lynx 1 and slim Lynx 2. If Lynx 2 didn't work why try Lynx 3? Yon need to start out fresh again...

 

If Lynx 1 and 2 didn't make it happen, try again to strike at the home system market, the other side of the coin Lynx/home system. They tried with the Jaguar, it could work or not. We know the rest, but there isn't much you can choose from as a video game company.

 

They did all they could with Lynx 2 and after that the Jaguar. It just didn't survive the competition. I see no other options... maybe the VR that didn't bless the future as people thought in the beginning (and mid) 90's maybe.

 

Just my opinion on the "subject" on commercial success.

 

I disagree about your assessment of Lynx revision 1 and Lynx revision 2. They were both roughly the same size and roughly the same battery life. When I speak of a true Lynx 2, I mean a genuine redesign with a smaller form factor (no bigger than a Turbo Express), superior battery life (8 to 10 hours from AA's), and a reasonable jump in capabilities. Again, it wasn't so much that Atari would be doubling down on a winner, it would be that they'd be doubling down on a system within their capabilities to support and provide competitive software for.

 

I do agree though that there were few options, period, for Atari to succeed in the hardware game. I'd say one option would be creating the best third party controllers for other consoles, but the reality is Atari was quite hit or miss with their controller designs. The other option that we already discussed was that they might be able to become a successful third party software provider, but as we also discussed, there's no reason to believe that the talent at Atari at that time could have made stand-out software.

 

To go back to the Jaguar for a moment, they really were in a no-win situation if we look to the Dreamcast as a point of comparison. Sega had a damaged reputation and poor financials, though were still far better off than Atari at the time of the Jaguar's release when they released the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast set launch sales records, was great hardware, had great software both at launch and beyond, sold well, etc., and even then couldn't overcome Sega's corporate issues. It too was a system that failed to establish a new generation, instead being wedged between the high point of the PS1 era and the beginning of the PS2 era, two of the best selling consoles of all time. The Jaguar of course (along with the more successful 3DO) was stuck between Genesis/SNES and PS1. The parallels are striking, though of course the Jaguar and Atari are just a patch compared to everything the Dreamcast and Sega achieved even in ultimately failing.

[Lost Dragon]

My thinking though Bill, is no matter how much Atari learned and thus improved on, from the Lynx MK 1 and MK 2, in terms of a true follow-up, they'd still have the 'damage' caused by the 1st to contend with.

Customers would no doubt be 'wary' as Atari had promised so much with Lynx in terms of games planned (Rolling Thunder, Cabal, Vindicators etc etc) just as they had with previous Atari platforms.

Retailers would bound to wary as would 3rd party developers/publishers as they'd simply be thinking..here we go, Atari hyping up yet another product, least we forget the STE, The Falcon, The 7800, The Lynx, least of all the Panther....

Atari would have had such an uphill struggle to restore faith, i'm honestly not sure where they'd of started.

[Atlantis]

Ok. Bill, you seem to have a crystal clear look on this matter, so I'm with you on this one.

I just think they didn't dare try Lynx a third time, but dared on last time on the home system. As long they had some money for innovative hardware, as VR, Jag link, Vortek 911 opition, they tried, but since no new money came in, it ended.

[Lost Dragon]

To use the DC as a comparison, despite Sega trying to distance itself from it's costly mistakes of the past-Hardware was powerful, easy to use, they listened to developers and increased Ram etc, where as Sony by comparison upset developers somewhat with PS2's Split Ram, had big name support, flagship games like Soul Cal, Res.Evil Code Vern.etc etc,DC had the best E3 showing, yet Sega still had THAT arrogance-telling Camelot (and if it's to be believed, E.A ) they did'nt need them, was just bizzare.

 

Sega launched a device offering real world performance which hit a massive wall of hyped, on-paper speculation of power of upcoming Sony product.

 

If Atari launched a new handheld, looking to capture something of Nintendo's key market share, how do you think they'd of reacted?.

 

Plus did'nt the GBC kinda get 'neglected' somewhat, from what i recal it sort of fell somewhere between the GB and GBA...had decent support, but Nintendo just i dunno, never seemed to push it in way i expected.

[JagChris]

:-) right so basically all that talk of Jaguar being able to handle A.I routines way beyond the PS1, was'nt until Xbox arrived A.I coding came close i seem to recal being claimed in a RG Article on Jaguar a few years back was...ahem..optimistic?

 

 

 

“BattleSphere might have looked better on the PSX [in terms of raw polygon count], but its gameplay would have suffered. The Jaguar’s multiple CPUs let me do things with physics and AI that were a good five years ahead of the rest of the industry. It wasn’t until Halo that I finally felt utterly outgunned.”

 

LOL

 

That's what you get when an article is 'Liard interviewing the people that who's nutsacks he's swinging from'

 

 

I don't suppose the interviewer (LOL) matters when the actual quote is so insanely insulting to the readers intelligence.

 

Well you're in luck Lost Dragon. The 'overly optimistic' quote is oppressors. Even if you don't do Facebook he is still a member here. You can get hold of him directly and ask him about the quote yourself. Or even maybe interview him. That would be kind of interesting.

 

http://atariage.com/forums/user/2405-oppressor/

[Lost Dragon]

:-) Luck ? Even the Irish are'nt blessed with my own type of that....

Facebook? Not an Option now, nor will it ever be, there's a line i won't cross just to try and discover what happened to...and Facebook is it.

Now, when you say an interview could be 'kinda interesting', i'm kinda getting vibe there's some....site history here? and potential can of worms in danger of being opened?

I'm all for giving someone chance to air their personal thoughts on any platform, let alone the Jaguar, but if an interview risks dragging up stuff long since put to bed and left slumbering, it's not my bag.

Last thing any site needs is drama.

Did he work on any Lost Games?

[Bill Loguidice]

To use the DC as a comparison, despite Sega trying to distance itself from it's costly mistakes of the past-Hardware was powerful, easy to use, they listened to developers and increased Ram etc, where as Sony by comparison upset developers somewhat with PS2's Split Ram, had big name support, flagship games like Soul Cal, Res.Evil Code Vern.etc etc,DC had the best E3 showing, yet Sega still had THAT arrogance-telling Camelot (and if it's to be believed, E.A ) they did'nt need them, was just bizzare.

 

Sega launched a device offering real world performance which hit a massive wall of hyped, on-paper speculation of power of upcoming Sony product.

 

If Atari launched a new handheld, looking to capture something of Nintendo's key market share, how do you think they'd of reacted?.

 

Plus did'nt the GBC kinda get 'neglected' somewhat, from what i recal it sort of fell somewhere between the GB and GBA...had decent support, but Nintendo just i dunno, never seemed to push it in way i expected.

 

The promise of the PS2 absolutely cast a cloud over the Dreamcast (and yes, the EA thing hurt as well). The fact that the early PS2 titles looked relatively poor in comparison to many Dreamcast titles highlighted that disparity to fans of Sega's console. Even with word of the difficulty developing software for the PS2, it really didn't matter because that's where the users ended up going, ultimately making it the best selling console of all time and causing everyone to develop for it. Eventually, the software did come to back up the early claims of the hardware's relative power.

 

As for the GBC, while it was arguably an uninspired update (it's technically only an extension of the original GameBoy and is lumped in with those sales; the dividing line is the GBA), it was an important stop-gap and did nothing to hurt the overwhelming marketshare of the overall GB platform. There's really no metric I can see by which it can be considered a failure. I'm also not saying that an Atari Lynx 2 would have done anything against the GB juggernaut, I'm simply stating that if decide that Atari HAD to be in hardware, then handhelds was probably where they'd be best suited. It's certainly likely they could have sold far more than the Jaguar did (which I know is not saying much).

[+remowilliams]

and potential can of worms in danger of being opened?

 

Yes

 

drama

 

Yes

[Bill Loguidice]

I just think they didn't dare try Lynx a third time, but dared on last time on the home system. As long they had some money for innovative hardware, as VR, Jag link, Vortek 911 opition, they tried, but since no new money came in, it ended.

 

 

If we wanted to stick with the idea that Atari should have still come out with the Jaguar, it's obvious (based on lack of resources and other factors) that they should have focused on the console itself instead of wasting countless resources on things like the CD add-on, JagVR, etc. It's a given they would have had to have started work on a Jaguar 2 shortly after getting Jaguar 1 out the door (that's just good business; we know Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony are already R&D'ing their successor systems even though they have no plans to release them for many years), but that should have been the only other thing to divert their attention away from the core console.

[Lost Dragon]

Re:Oppressor's comments in that RG Article:

 

I've personally never played Battlesphere, plus no desire to re-ignite flames of what ever might have happened long before i joined here, plus there's enough 'Wahhhh-type' stuff going on in background already just because i choose to look into claims that appeared on so-called 'Official Lost Jaguar Games' Threads etc.

 

Plus looking at quote from said RG article, it reads as just his personal viewpoint, no different to coders who perfered MD to SNES as felt SNES CPU was underpowered, or those who prefered Saturn to PS1 as they felt Sony's tools restricted them too much was as other PS1 coders wrote their own routines and by-passed a lot of the Sony Libary stuff.

[Lost Dragon]

That's always been the impression i've been going under, that R+D for a follow-up platform, basically starts pretty much as soon as your current flagship product has been launched, said hardware then under goes numerous revisions, due to numerous factors, price, what rival hardware is offering, change in direction of market etc etc.

 

With the Jaguar What If's...i think which ever way you look at it, it basically boils down to this:

 

Jaguar launches, suddenly finds itself in a very different market to that it expected, Sony has seemingly come from nowhere with a uber console and is wooing developers left, right and central with demo's running off 30% finished chipsets and 3D is now seen as THE Next Big Thing, games are being judged it seems on how many texture-mapped polys they can throw around per second, with light sourcing etc etc.

 

Jaguar hardware just is'nt going to be able to compete and add-on's have a history of failing, so releasing, let alone beefing up the specs with extra chips for 3D etc is out.

[Lost Dragon]

(cont) so basically it's what do you do, if your Atari, to ensure your cart based hardware, carves out a sufficent 'niche' for itself to generate enough revenue to keep you afloat, whilst your R+D team/s work on your CD based, PS1/N64/Saturn beating Jaguar MK 2....and your working on very limited funds for cirrent platform, let alone R+D for future, compared to your rivals.

 

Over to you guys....

[Bill Loguidice]

(cont) so basically it's what do you do, if your Atari, to ensure your cart based hardware, carves out a sufficent 'niche' for itself to generate enough revenue to keep you afloat, whilst your R+D team/s work on your CD based, PS1/N64/Saturn beating Jaguar MK 2....and your working on very limited funds for cirrent platform, let alone R+D for future, compared to your rivals.

 

Over to you guys....

 

Assuming Atari stayed laser focused on the Jaguar console, what they do is split their resources down two main paths. The first path is to create/fund triple A first party games (either internally or outsourced, but under the Atari banner), then use the remaining funds to subsidize important third party releases, i.e., keep a steady flow of software coming. I think only by having some enticing must-own titles on the Jaguar console (and a large enough selection) can you start to build buzz for the platform and beef up the anemic numbers it got during its actual timeline. Whether that would have been enough to keep the platform and Atari afloat is debatable of course (again, coming from a standpoint of not being sure there was any "win" scenario that allowed them to come out with a Jaguar 2), but it would have at least been a better try than what we got. And oh yes, absolutely no "64-bit" advertising campaign nonsense. Let the games that would have been created under that hypothetical scenario do the talking.

 

While one game doesn't make a console, we only have to look to how much Super Mario 64 helped the Nintendo 64 and how much much Halo helped the original Xbox to see that one game - if it's the right game - can make a BIG difference. Under the scenario I described above, it certainly would have helped the Jaguar's case tremendously if it could have had an equivalent, buzz-worthy title.

[high voltage]

Well you're right about the '64 bit' advertising. That was kinda lame (Atari did some embarrassing advertising for the Jaguar).

 

When I collected N64, it also was pretty lame every second game had the '64' at the end, eg Bomberman 64, Power league 64, Star Fox 64, Carmageddon 64, Wave Race 64, etc... soooooooooooo annoying!!!!

Edited March 6, 2015 by high voltage

[Eyemsougly]

does anybody have any idea of the unit production costs of a Jaguar console?

[DracIsBack]

There were only two significant flaws with the Lynx relative to its era. One was the battery life and the other was its size. A true successor could have addressed both issues. Otherwise, it's very hard to argue with the quality and versatility of the original Lynx and it being the foundation of a series of systems.

 

It was also really expensive at first; unavailable in many locations and

 

the killer ...

 

had a limited library against GameBoy or Gamegear.

 

I liked it too (owned one for a while), but it was cool tech with some serious limitations from a gamer's point of view.

[Retro Rogue]

Hey guys. The consensus online seems to be that while, yeah, Atari made some mistakes with the Jaguar it was absolutely doomed to failure no matter what. I want to offer an alternative history where the Jaguar could have found commercial success as a niche console, similar to the 7800, if Atari had a different business plan.

It looks like you're basing a few alternatives on a misunderstanding of those topics and what was actually going on with them. Otherwise always cool to see these "What I would of done" scenarios.

 

2. Dump the Lynx and the CD add on. There was never any room in the hand held market for anything besides the Game Gear and Gameboy so the Lynx was a terrible idea and in my plan the Jaguar is only mean to be a niche console anyway so there will never be enough sales to merit add ons. Both the Lynx and the CD add on were a waste of scarce resources.

There was no Game Gear or Gameboy when Atari started the Lynx. Likewise, the GameBoy and Lynx were introduced around the same time. The Gamer Gear was later. I.E. it wasn't introduced on a market already owned by the GameBoy and Game Gear as you suggest.

 

3. Drastically reduce the advertising budget. We're not competing with Nintendo, Sega and Sony so no need to advertise on TV slots. Use (relatively) cheap adds in gaming magazines since our target market is hardcore gamers only.

It was already a reduced budget, and the criticism against the Tramiels and Atari Corp. has always been they spent way to little on advertising and promotion.

 

 

5. Do not sell the system at a loss. Again, we aren't Nintendo, Sony or Sega and there is no hope of us every recouping our loss through game sales because our market just isn't big enough. We aren't fighting for market share so no need to get in to price wars. Now maybe somebody can correct my numbers but I believe that the system could be sold with a pack in at 500 dollars a unit and break even so lets go with that.

That's just not possible in the industry, that's simply the way it works because of the cost of development and resources vs. bringing a next gen console to market. You're assuming it was a choice. During that period, needing to sell the system at a loss in favor of making your margins in software was becoming the norm. In order to not sell at a loss, the system you're selling would need to be older hardware. At that point you're not talking about the Jaguar anymore, you're talking about a different console. Comparing it to high end multimedia systems that were also consoles is just not an apt comparison to justify bumping the cost. The Neo-Geo system was priced primarily as a rental device, not a consumer device (i.e. for video stores like BlockBuster to purchase these and rent them out, or hotel chains to purchase them and rent out time). The 3DO while suggested at about $699 was more in the $400-$500 range and quickly dropped in price, plus it again was being portrayed as a premium CD multimedia system. Unless the Jag included the CD unit there's no way you could justify launching at that price range, you would have sold even less Jaguars than were actually sold. Not to mention your desire to cut down advertising even more (a move backwards to marketing 101) would have compounded that sales problem.

 

 

 

 

If Atari had done all of this I could see the Jaguar selling around 2 million units and being profitable for Atari although I think that Atari would probably decide to forego developing consoles and thereafter focusing on its gaming division like Sega would do less than a decade later.

 

What do you guys think?

If Atari Corp. had done what you mentioned above, it wouldn't be the Jaguar it would have been something else.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Retro Rogue

[Lost Dragon]

! thing that i don't think has been brought up so far is...

Atari launching the Jaguar in JAPAN!. I've seen quotes saying it sold as little as 5,000 units over there, always wondered what resources were, in effect, wasted by bothering to launch it over there at all.

Not saying the money spent on the Japanese launch would of saved atari, but probably could of been used to greater effect else where, i'd wager.

So, in keeping in with spirt of alt.history, i'm going with..ditch any ideas about bringing hardware to Japan, focus on establishing your markets in Europe and USA.

[sh3-rg]

Atari launching the Jaguar in JAPAN!

[Lost Dragon]

:-(

Image not displaying on this browser for some reason.

[sh3-rg]

 

:-(

Image not displaying on this browser for some reason.

 

 

found it here: http://www.angelfire.com/retro/cafefuji/

[Gentlegamer]

I think a "what if" scenario for a commercially successful TurboGrafx-16 is much more realistic.

[Papa]

They should have just dumped VR for the Mindlink 2 for the Jaguar!!

 

(this time, NO EYEBROW MOVEMENT REQUIRED!!)