Skippy B. Coyote Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I'm making this post because I've noticed my Vader model 2600 showing some weird vertical line graphical errors in certain games, and I'm hoping to get some feedback as to whether this is a problem with my system or the games themselves. Unfortunately I don't have a second Atari 2600 to test the games on right now, but I have tested the games/system on both a Sony Trinitron CRT TV and a newer HDTV and the results are the same on both. At this point I have a library of a little over 130 games for the 2600 and out of all of them there are only four games that show these weird graphical errors. Unfortunately three of the four happen to be some of the most valuable games in my library, so I'm really hoping this is something wrong with the system and not the games themselves. The games that are giving me trouble are: Halloween Reactor Princess Rescue And a reproduction copy of the prototype Shooting Arcade (not pictured). What do guys think? Is this a problem with the system that can be fixed, or should I just go try and hunt down a new 2600 system? Or do you think there might be something wrong with the games? Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Looks like a problem with the shielding of your antenna cable. You should try to exchange that against a better one, best with ferrite beads. Not sure why this only happens with the four carts, though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy B. Coyote Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Looks like a problem with the shielding of your antenna cable. You should try to exchange that against a better one, best with ferrite beads. Not sure why this only happens with the four carts, though. That's what I thought it was at first too, but even after running the antenna cable through a RF interference filter the problems don't go away. I've also tried replacing the cable with a fully sheilded one and that didn't change anything either. At that point I thought it must be a problem with the games, since only 4 out out of my 130'ish games are affected and the rest have a perfect interference-free picture, so I decided to try buying a brand new copy of Reactor (since that was the cheapest of the affected games) and I had the exact same problem with the brand new copy as the used one. This is getting really puzzling! Edited June 10, 2015 by Jin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Then I can only guess, that the cart itself is the source of the interference. And that the shielding inside the console is weak. Have you checked the metal shielding of the video section on the board? Maybe it lost connection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy B. Coyote Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) Then I can only guess, that the cart itself is the source of the interference. And that the shielding inside the console is weak. Have you checked the metal shielding of the video section on the board? Maybe it lost connection?That's what I was thinking too, but having both the used and brand new copies of Reactor display the same graphical errors made me think it might not be the carts at all. The sheilding around the board is bolted down rock solid, and I can't see anything obviously amiss in there aside from breaks in the top of the foil tape between the switches; which I wouldn't think would cause this kind of severe graphical distortion in certain games. Edited June 10, 2015 by Jin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 The pattern you are seeing are definitely not coming from the TIA. The 2600 is not able to produce such signal by itself. So it must be some kind of distortion somewhere in the analog video signal section. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+frankodragon Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Sometimes if you have a fan or some other device nearby running, it can cause a magnetic interference. From this page there are several things that cause electrical interference: Potential sources of RFI and EMI include: various types of transmitters, doorbell transformers, toaster ovens, electric blankets, ultrasonic pest control devices, electric bug zappers, heating pads, and touch controlled lamps. Multiple CRT computer monitors or televisions sitting too close to one another can sometimes cause a "shimmy" effect in each other, due to the electromagnetic nature of their picture tubes, especially when one of their de-gaussing coils is activated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy B. Coyote Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) The pattern you are seeing are definitely not coming from the TIA. The 2600 is not able to produce such signal by itself. So it must be some kind of distortion somewhere in the analog video signal section. Sometimes if you have a fan or some other device nearby running, it can cause a magnetic interference. From this page there are several things that cause electrical interference: Okay guys, in an effort to do further troubleshooting I tried a few things that might have been causing the problems. First, I powered off and unplugged every single electronic device in my home within a 30ft or so radius of the Atari and television. After that I unplugged the Atari and TV from the power strip they were plugged into and plugged them directly into a wall outlet, to eliminate the power strip as an interference source. This did not change the visual distortion in the affected games at all, they still looked just the same. Next I considered the possibility that it might be a faulty connection between the cartridge and the Atari, leading some games' boards to not connect properly in the cartridge slot. To test this I ended up sacrificing my used copy of Reactor by cracking open the heat sealed cartridge housing, removing the cartridge board, and plugging the board directly into my 2600's cartridge slot with no casing around it. The result was still the same: small dark vertical lines and patches all over the screen. The weird thing about the graphical distortion in the four affected games is that it doesn't look anything like RF interference to me. The dark lines are solid, non-staticy, and do not flicker; and no amount of wiggling or messing with the system's RCA cable will make them move or change in the slightest. That leads me to think it's not RF interference at all causing whatever is going on with these four games, but I'm starting to run out of ideas for what it could be short of something flawed on the system's board. For reference, I am currently running the stock Atari RCA cable with a RadioShack brand gold plated female RCA to male coaxial adapter plugged directly into the TV. And once again, I have tried the games on multiple different TVs and the result was always the same; so I think we can safely remove the TV from the list of potential causes. Still, I'm willing to eliminate every possible alternative cause before replacing the system entirely (because some of those games have gotten waaaay too expensive to replace at this point). So if any of you guys could link me to a specific high quality shielded cable and ferrite bead for it that has proven to give a good clear picture for other users here I would sincerely appreciate that. I've tried replacing the cable with a shielded cable before and didn't see any improvement, but it's possible that the cable I bought ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00291X3CU ) just wasn't high enough quality to change anything. So if you guys have any specific cable and ferrite bead recommendations I could try out I'd definitely be willing to give it a go. Edited June 10, 2015 by Jin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Looks like your garden variety interference to me, just more noticeable on certain games is all. I do believe certain games emit more or "different" interference as I too have noticed particular patterns like that with certain cartridges throughout the years. Could always try a true 75ohm cable and maybe attach a ferrite bead or two to it for even better luck:http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_10/188-8207596-1480600?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=75ohm+rca+cable&sprefix=75ohm+rca+%2Celectronics%2C188http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=ferrite+bead&rh=n%3A172282%2Ck%3Aferrite+bead...and why 75ohms:http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/impedance.htm 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I'd also try touching up the solder joints at the RF box, RCA connector, cartridge port and around the RF shields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+frankodragon Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 You may also want to try (before you get out the soldering iron) contact cleaner for electronics and use it on the RCA connection on the board: http://www.walmart.com/ip/CRC-Electronic-Cleaner-11-Oz./16817418 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy B. Coyote Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 Looks like your garden variety interference to me, just more noticeable on certain games is all. Could always try a true 75ohm cable and maybe attach a ferrite bead or two to it for even better luck: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_10/188-8207596-1480600?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=75ohm+rca+cable&sprefix=75ohm+rca+%2Celectronics%2C188 http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=ferrite+bead&rh=n%3A172282%2Ck%3Aferrite+bead ...and why 75ohms: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/impedance.htm I'd also try touching up the solder joints at the RF box, RCA connector, cartridge port and around the RF shields. You may also want to try (before you get out the soldering iron) contact cleaner for electronics and use it on the RCA connection on the board: http://www.walmart.com/ip/CRC-Electronic-Cleaner-11-Oz./16817418 Thanks again for the helpful advice guys! I'll go ahead and put in an order for a 75ohm shielded cable and ferrite beads from Amazon. Are there any particular cables/beads from that list that you'd recommend over others? The first time I ordered a shielded cable for my 2600 the RCA plug on it was a little too long and wouldn't make a secure connection with the system, so I'm hoping to pick up a cable that others have used and can vouch for the fit/quality of before I spend the money on it. As far as soldering goes, I think I'm a reasonably technically inclined guy but sadly the one thing I've never learned how to do was soldering. I don't own a soldering iron and by the time I bought one and the needed accessories I could have probably bought a new bare bones 2600 for the same price, so I'm not terribly wild about the idea of buying one and learning how to solder just to troubleshoot this system. I'll definitely pick up a 75ohm cable and ferrite beads though, since those aren't too expensive and seem like a good way to rule out interference as the culprit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Not necessarily the case here, but if you're going to be playing around in the vintage electronics playground, you're going to need and want a soldering iron sooner or later. True story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I've noticed that pattern on Reactor forever... On every 4 switch console I've tried it on. Can anyone put up a picture of Reactor without that pattern on a old CRT TV? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I've noticed that pattern on Reactor forever... On every 4 switch console I've tried it on. Can anyone put up a picture of Reactor without that pattern on a old CRT TV? Okay, testing this out... Reactor displays like that, even on my A/V modded 7800! Just not as pronounced. Tried the ROM on the Harmony cart and almost the entire pattern of interference is gone. Guess we learned it's just the way certain companies produced their cartridge boards then. Some have a metal shield over the ROM, some don't, etc. Also, another benefit of the Harmony Cart - scrubs the standard RF interference of certain games away for a much cleaner gaming experience! ..still, won't hurt for the OP to get a better cable and ferrite beads. That combo *should* help clean up the interference a bit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy B. Coyote Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 Okay, testing this out... Reactor displays like that, even on my A/V modded 7800! Just not as pronounced. Tried the ROM on the Harmony cart and almost the entire pattern of interference is gone. Guess we learned it's just the way certain companies produced their cartridge boards then. Some have a metal shield over the ROM, some don't, etc. photo 2.jpg photo 1.jpg ..still, won't hurt for the OP to get a better cable and ferrite beads. That combo *should* help clean up the interference a bit. Well, that explains Reactor! For reference, since I just cracked open the case on one of my two copies of Reactor this morning to test the if the interference remained if I was to plug the cartridge board directly into the system with no casing around it, here's a picture of the Reactor cartridge board: Now hopefully a better quality cable will clear up the interference in the other games. Fingers crossed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Now hopefully a better quality cable will clear up the interference in the other games. Fingers crossed! The combo will definitely help... hey, since you've got your Reactor cart all torn apart, might as well try shielding it with something like aluminum foil or even a thin piece of metal glued/taped to cover the length of the ROM. Or line the cartridge with tin foil... bet you could minimize the interference that way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy B. Coyote Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 The combo will definitely help... hey, since you've got your Reactor cart all torn apart, might as well try shielding it with something like aluminum foil or even a thin piece of metal glued/taped to cover the length of the ROM. Or line the cartridge with tin foil... bet you could minimize the interference that way! In case you're curious I did try wrapping the ROM in as many as 8 layers of aluminum foil, making sure there was a good seal on all sides, and it did nothing to change the picture quality. Either it isn't a ROM interference issue or aluminum foil just isn't a very good insulator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I think you have to ground the shielding. Else it won't work well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reklen Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I was curious, and put my copy of Reactor in my 7800. It looked great, till I tried to play it, then it just crashed. It would only work if I applied pressure to the cartridge when I inserted it. I works and looks fine on My Vader. Does the 7800 have problems with Parker Bros cartridges. I checked the ones I had, and it did not want to play Reactor, or Frogger II. Eventually I got Frogger II to work. Is it the spring mechanism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr SQL Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 In case you're curious I did try wrapping the ROM in as many as 8 layers of aluminum foil, making sure there was a good seal on all sides, and it did nothing to change the picture quality. Either it isn't a ROM interference issue or aluminum foil just isn't a very good insulator. 8 layers? You've got a homemade Faraday Cage Tom is right, you must ground each layer to activate the cage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy B. Coyote Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) As an update, I've gone ahead and ordered a heavy duty 10ft shielded 75ohm cable (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003L13C64) and a 90° adapter for it (http://www.amazon.com/dp/product/B000J38HZ8) since I know from experience that the plugs on larger cables like this stick up too far to close the 2600's housing with the new cable plugged into the board. Those were the best reviewed and highest quality components I could find, so hopefully they clear up the interference. I would have ordered some ferrite beads to put on each end of the cable as well, but unfortunately the cable manufacturer did not offer specifications for the width of the cable in millimeters so I didn't know what size ferrite beads I'd need for it. I contacted the manufacturer's tech service center to see if they could tell me the width of the cable, but they didn't know either. At this point it's just going to be a matter of waiting a week or so for the cable and 90° adapter to arrive, then once it does I can find out if it clears up the problems. If it doesn't then I'll try to take a measurement of the cable's width (which might be tricky without a set of calipers, but I'll give it a go) and order some ferrite beads for it. And if that doesn't work... well, at that point I think I'm just going to give up on the Vader and start hunting for a different model of 2600. Fingers crossed that the cable and/or ferrite beads fixes the issue though, since the Vader really does have my favorite aesthetics of any of the 2600 models and I'd hate to have to replace it with a different system that I didn't like the look of as much. Anyway, now I wait. Edit: After doing a bit more research I discovered that the RG6/U casing that the cable I ordered uses has a standard outer diameter of 7mm, so I went ahead and ordered some 7mm ferrite beads for it (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007Q94DBK). The beads are shipping from Hong Kong so they might not arrive for a few weeks, but I'll update this thread as the new cable, 90° adapter, and ferrite beads arrive. Here's hoping this little $20 venture pays off! Edited June 10, 2015 by Jin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7800 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I just learned that an RCA to Coax adapter and a quality shielded coax (cable TV) jumper might clear that up. However, this might only be viable with the 2600 Jr. consoles since all others have the RF cable sticking out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skippy B. Coyote Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 Alright everyone, my new 75ohm shielded cable from Monoprice and the 90° adapter from AudioQuest arrived today! The ferrite beads I ordered probably won't show up for another week or two since they're shipping from Hong Kong, but since the new cable and adapter arrived today I figured I'd set it up and try it out to see if it improved the visual quality in the few games that appear to be experiencing interference. It's a pretty looking cable with everything all set up (which did involve having to dremel out a fair bit of the inside of the case to accommodate this much larger cable, even with the 90° adapter) but the important thing is how the games look on it. The short version of the story is that... well... the colors in all the games look a little brighter and more vivid, but the interference is WAY worse than it ever was with the stock Atari 2600 cable! I'm almost at a loss for how a 75ohm fully shielded cable could cause more interference than the stock cable that is only lightly shielded, but the TV doesn't lie. Those are just a few examples from Princess Rescue, but even games that I never noticed any interference in before were showing substantial interference with the new cable set up. In an attempt to reduce the interference I tried running the coaxial end of the cable through a RF interference filter, but strangely that didn't reduce the interference at all. I also tried removing the 90° adapter and connecting the new cable directly to the system board but that didn't reduce the interference at all either. I'm pretty stumped on why the new cable, which should be much better than the stock one, is making the interference worse. If I had to venture a guess it would be that the female RCA connector on the system board is too short for a standard sized male RCA plug to fully sink into, making the connection open to interference, but I'm no electrical engineer so I could be completely talking out my backside here. I can provide some pictures for reference though: Stock RCA Cable Monoprice 75ohm Shielded Cable w/ AudioQuest 90° Adapter For now I've gone ahead and reconnected the stock cable, running it through a RF Interference Filter before connecting it to the TV, which (as strange as it might be) is the setup that has provided me with the best picture and least interference. In all but a handful of my games this setup provides me with perfectly clear visuals that show no discernible interference, but the interference in the few games mentioned in the original post still remains. For now I'll wait and see if the ferrite beads help the new cable at all when they arrive in a week or two, but in the meantime I'd be really interested in getting some feedback from those with more electrical knowledge than I on why using this new (and seemingly much better) cable has resulted in more interference in the visual signal rather than less. I'm stumped! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey.shake Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I'd be really interested in getting some feedback from those with more electrical knowledge than I on why using this new (and seemingly much better) cable has resulted in more interference in the visual signal rather than less. I'm stumped! I've had this same problem once before as well... a total head-scratcher. I'd be interested to hear theories on this one, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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