Atari Jaguar vs 3do

[Christos]

So we can safely say that commercial quality == pretty graphics. In that case i d say that cloudy with a chance of metaballs and morphonic lab xiii are the most commercial homebrews

[Bill Loguidice]

 

While I agree that AW is a great release, I have to disagree on this: '...the type of creation that goes above and beyond what we usually get...'

 

The only 'creation' that went into the game (not the new engine, that's different) was done in the 90's. It's a PORT. Not a single new game play element was created.

 

Is Gauntlet II held to the same standards? Or is it conveniently forgotten because its just a .rom on a forum instead of in a box on a shelf? What about our upcoming Xenon II release? I can't make any claims to have created anything there other than making it work on the Jaguar. (And yes, it *IS* a lot of work, as both Seb and myself are fully aware)

 

Elansar, while also a nice game, can be completed in about 15 minutes.... how is that not also 'mini' by your definition ?

 

There's a very selective memory syndrome when it comes to homebrew releases.

 

I think it's splitting hairs that it's a port. Many games are ports. Another World is a lengthy, detailed, and technically proficient game with notable enhancements for the Jaguar platform. It wouldn't look out of place as a AAA release back in the day.

 

In terms of Elansar, completion time is relative. What takes you 15 minutes might take me three hours. I'm going to cut that game some slack because of the technical proficiency of the game, i.e., it made an attempt to push the Jag's audio-visuals, and the fact that it was crammed onto a cartridge.

 

Also, I wasn't the guy who used the word "mini." A mini-game to me is just that, a mini-game that typically forms part of a collection or is not robust enough for release on its own.

 

In terms of Gauntlet II and the similar games you ported, they're all wonderful contributions to the community and a nice bonus for the harder core members of the community, but you didn't exactly change or optimize anything for the Jaguar, right? (feel free to correct any false assumptions here on my part) In a loose sense, it's probably not wrong to say the Jaguar is more or less emulating those games created for other platforms. In other words, they're exactly the same as what it was ported from, with the only difference being you're playing on a Jaguar, versus say an Atari ST. To me, that's significantly different from what was done with Another World. I'm in no way diminishing the amount of effort - I have no doubt it was painstaking - but the "value" that you're adding is making it work on the platform, period. If you added additional modes, optimized the audio-visuals for the Jaguar, etc., then by all means there would be a clear difference in what was added to the Jaguar's game library.

 

In any case, I sense you're quite angry about this and it's not my intention to disparage your work. None of us can ever truly appreciate what goes into the things each of us creates.

[sh3-rg]

There's a very selective memory syndrome when it comes to homebrew releases.

 

Maybe. It's probably much simpler that that, though.

 

The kinds of people who sit around on forums talking about this stuff and filling those carefully ordered shelves with precisely catergorised boxes aren't usually those best qualified to be stating what any particular game is or is not. Leave them to their incisive discussion and don't waste your time with it.

 

Speaking of wasting time...

 

 

 

tl;dr:

 

fuck'em

 

[+CyranoJ]

In terms of Elansar, completion time is relative. What takes you 15 minutes might take me three hours. I'm going to cut that game some slack because of the technical proficiency of the game, i.e., it made an attempt to push the Jag's audio-visuals, and the fact that it was crammed onto a cartridge.

 

Not to disparage Orion, because I like some of his games, but if you think a slideshow with a pointer is pushing the Jaguar's audio/visuals then you are clearly well out of your depth as a reviewer here.

 

 

 

but you didn't exactly change or optimize anything for the Jaguar, right? (feel free to correct any false assumptions here on my part)

 

Actually most of them are heavily optimized (The sprite code, some logic loops moved to the GPU - In Bubble Bobble's case, use the arcade music....), or they'd be running at less than half speed... What I didn't exactly do was put it in a shiny box to collect dust.

Edited October 7, 2015 by CyranoJ

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Not to disparage Orion, because I like some of his games, but if you think a slideshow with a pointer is pushing the Jaguar's audio/visuals then you are clearly well out of your depth as a reviewer here.

 

I guess we're just not seeing each other's points, then. So be it. Like I said, I'm not a fan of the Myst-like adventure game genre, but that's exactly what that game is. It's still a game expressly made for the Jaguar's capabilities, even though it's "a slideshow with a pointer" like all other games in that sub-genre. The fact that it's an example of a particular sub-genre that's not as interactive as some others is not particularly relevant.

[Trooper Galactus]

Don't suppose anybody could convince SNK to license ports of the Neo Geo library to the Jaguar? Dare to dream!

[+CyranoJ]

 

I guess we're just not seeing each other's points, then. So be it. Like I said, I'm not a fan of the Myst-like adventure game genre, but that's exactly what that game is. It's still a game expressly made for the Jaguar's capabilities, even though it's "a slideshow with a pointer" like all other games in that sub-genre. The fact that it's an example of a particular sub-genre that's not as interactive as some others is not particularly relevant.

 

Quite correct, as a game. However you qualified it with 'it made an attempt to push the Jag's audio-visuals' which clearly it does not.

 

And why should it? I've always said a game should be judged on it's merits (fun factor!) , and not on how 'hard' it pushes anything anywhere.

Edited October 8, 2015 by CyranoJ

[ovalbugmann]

 

Quite correct, as a game. However you qualified it with 'it made an attempt to push the Jag's audio-visuals' which clearly it does not.

 

And why should it? I've always said a game should be judged on it's merits (fun factor!) , and not on how 'hard' it pushes anything anywhere.

Exactly! - Yes, The only thing that matters, is IF ITS FUN!! What good are graphics if it ain't a fun game to play! Otherwise its just interesting to look at for a few minutes and that's it, I'm not going to be playing a game like StormWorks last Jag entry much more than a few minutes once I learn about the bad gameplay. lol

Edited October 8, 2015 by ovalbugmann

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Quite correct, as a game. However you qualified it with 'it made an attempt to push the Jag's audio-visuals' which clearly it does not.

 

And why should it? I've always said a game should be judged on it's merits (fun factor!) , and not on how 'hard' it pushes anything anywhere.

 

For the game type that it is, it uses the maximum audio-visual capabilities of the Jaguar. Whether that's impressive or not in spite of the limitations of the sub-genre is up to the individual. As a Myst-like, it gets the job done in that regard.

 

And wow, a game should be judged on its fun factor? I can think of zero people who play games that aren't fun. But I suppose since the discussion point of different tiers of homebrews has gotten perverted with each new message, why not bring in more straw man arguments?

[+CyranoJ]

 

For the game type that it is, it uses the maximum audio-visual capabilities of the Jaguar. Whether that's impressive or not in spite of the limitations of the sub-genre is up to the individual. As a Myst-like, it gets the job done in that regard.

 

And wow, a game should be judged on its fun factor? I can think of zero people who play games that aren't fun. But I suppose since the discussion point of different tiers of homebrews has gotten perverted with each new message, why not bring in more straw man arguments?

 

LOL.

 

I've always read your posts and usually agree with you on things.. but if you think a slideshow with a pointer is pushing anything besides a narrative then really I have no words. Maybe I should draw a picture with an arrow in it for you?

Edited October 8, 2015 by CyranoJ

[Bill Loguidice]

 

LOL.

 

I've always read your posts and usually agree with you on things.. but if you think a slideshow with a pointer is pushing anything besides a narrative then really I have no words. Maybe I should draw a picture with an arrow in it for you?

 

Explain to me what else a Myst clone should be doing that this isn't doing? It uses all of the audio-visual prowess of the Jaguar to play a Myst clone the best that a Myst clone can be done on the system. We both agree there's not much of a game there, but none of the Myst-like games are much of a game. You do much more with the concept, suddenly you have a completely different game type.

[+CyranoJ]

I'm not arguing your above point. I'm arguing your previous statement of:

I'm going to cut that game some slack because of the technical proficiency of the game, i.e., it made an attempt to push the Jag's audio-visuals

 

Please, explain to me how it attempted to push the Jag's audio-visuals by displaying a picture and a pointer? The fact that this is all that is required for the game is irrelevant.

 

We both agree there's not much of a game there.

 

Actually, no. The game part is fun. In that respect, there's a full game there. It's just not very long (But again, doesn't claim to be, so that is also ok)

Edited October 8, 2015 by CyranoJ

[Bill Loguidice]

I'm not arguing your above point. I'm arguing your previous statement of:

 

Please, explain to me how it attempted to push the Jag's audio-visuals by displaying a picture and a pointer? The fact that this is all that is required for the game is irrelevant.

 

You're getting hung up on the concept of "pushed." I'm not saying it broke technical ground or anything (it's a Myst-like after all), I'm merely saying that it made use of the Jaguar's audio-visual resources that many other homebrews don't. Whether it was "easy" or or any other term, derogatory or otherwise, because of the type of game it is, is irrelevant. It's a game that wouldn't have been out of place during the Jaguar's commercial lifetime. Compared to some of the other homebrews that have been released that have been unkindly, but probably not incorrectly, called out as having 8-bit-level audio-visuals, Elansar obviously does not suffer from that. Whether those games are more fun is really not part of the discussion here. I would think just about anything is more fun, but I admit that's due to me not particularly caring for Myst-like games. It's an excellent example of the sub-genre it's a part of. It fits the part. I'm not going to fault the limited interactivity, animation, etc., because that's what those games are. They're essentially mildly interactive puzzle-based slide shows.That doesn't change the fact that it looks and sounds good by leveraging the Jaguar's capabilities. That's again in contrast to some other homebrew games that could just as easily be more or less exact replicas on lesser systems. It was also just one example of a homebrew that made good use of the Jaguar's capabilities (again, acknowledging the known limitations of the sub-genre), not the end all, be all of Jaguar homebrews. Far from it. Hopefully, that's clear now.

[Atlantis]

 

The 3DO Zone (Zero) forums were really active at one point, but it's mostly a ghost town now with the same handful of individuals still making posts.

Yeah, I tried to sign up for the 3DO Zone forum, but they asked me to answer the "what is rule #4?" after entering user name, password and such, and I have no clue what that rule number four is, so they missed one - or more? - new member - members 'couse of that?

 

When old guys dropping off, and new guys need to answer to "rule #4" ???!!!, things will die there.

[Austin]

Yeah, I tried to sign up for the 3DO Zone forum, but they asked me to answer the "what is rule #4?" after entering user name, password and such, and I have no clue what that rule number four is, so they missed one - or more? - new member - members 'couse of that?

 

When old guys dropping off, and new guys need to answer to "rule #4" ???!!!, things will die there.

 

There's a "rules" thread on the forum. Find that, find Rule #4, and you have your answer. There's been a problem with bots there in the past so it's a measure taken to counter them.

[Willard]

 

...even though it's "a slideshow with a pointer" like all other games in that sub-genre. The fact that it's an example of a particular sub-genre that's not as interactive as some others is not particularly relevant.

 

Some people (such as myself) would argue that the genre developed quite a bit after Myst FMV transitions, panoramic images to allow the player to look around them, animated scenery, branching FMV sequences, extensive use of animation while interacting with the environment .etc (then a transition of the genre into full 3D environments). Not that it added a substantial amount to the gameplay but it added a lot to the experience which is what the whole genre was about.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Willard

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Some people (such as myself) would argue that the genre developed quite a bit after Myst FMV transitions, panoramic images to allow the player to look around them, animated scenery, branching FMV sequences, extensive use of animation while interacting with the environment .etc (then a transition of the genre into full 3D environments). Not that it added a substantial amount to the gameplay but it added a lot to the experience which is what the whole genre was about.

 

No one said the genre didn't evolve (Chapter 12, for instance). Whether Elansar should have shown that evolution or whether it's a good game at all is an entirely different subject. It's still a competent example of a Myst-like game, much like the actual Myst game released for the Jaguar CD. The discussion is more around the technology, although that's also somewhat subjective. I think it's enough that it used all of the visual and audio fidelity available on the Jaguar, but it obviously could have done more, although it's easy enough to argue that perhaps it met all of its designer's goals.

[Willard]

No one said the genre didn't evolve

 

I was referring to your quote:

 

 

...even though it's "a slideshow with a pointer" like all other games in that sub-genre.

 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Willard

[Bill Loguidice]

 

I was referring to your quote:

 

 

 

I didn't think I needed to be quite that precise in my wording. Obviously I don't expect the Jaguar to be able to pull off, say, third generation Myst clones. I meant the Myst-like games (including Myst itself) that were released within the first several years of the original that really were the controversial love them or hate them "slide show" style games.

[Willard]

If you're a fan of graphic adventure games you notice a comment like that a bit more than if you aren’t. It’s just beating up on an already neglected type of game!

Edited October 12, 2015 by Willard

[Bill Loguidice]

If you're a fan of graphic adventure games you notice a comment like that a bit more than if you aren’t. It’s just beating up on an already neglected type of game!

 

Let me just say that even though, like anyone, I have certain genres that I don't particularly care for, I always try to see why others might appreciate something (I think my body of work speaks to that). For instance, besides Myst-like games, I don't care for games like Super Mario 64 (mostly because I get easily lost), but I can of course appreciate why people might love it.

 

I've actually been playing "Valiant Hearts" (Xbox One version) and "Broken Age" (PS4 version) quite a bit of late, and I'd say those are definitely the types of adventure games I prefer over the Myst-style ones. Ultimately, it just comes down to differences of presentation, perspective, and how the puzzles are solved, which is really not that big of a gap all things considered.

[Sporadic]

Probably going to regret this, but yeah.... what was this thread? oh yeah, Atari Jaguar vs 3do.

 

 

http://kotaku.com/heres-why-the-3do-port-of-doom-sucked-1671138312

 

 

 

 

Boom!!! <Drops the mike> ....

Edited October 12, 2015 by Sporadic

[Bill Loguidice]

Probably going to regret this, but yeah.... what was this thread? oh yeah, Atari Jaguar vs 3do.

 

 

http://kotaku.com/heres-why-the-3do-port-of-doom-sucked-1671138312

 

 

1444735475603072173.jpg

 

 

Boom!!! <Drops the mike> ....

 

I'm not sure I get your point. A poorly programmed 3DO game versus a reasonably well programmed (yet still not fully optimized) Jaguar game? Yeah, the Jaguar "wins." A more interesting comparison is probably Wolfenstein 3D, which is well programmed and enhanced on both, although clearly not exactly taxing either. Sadly, there are few examples of the same title created for both systems, save for the aforementioned titles, the FMV stuff, which really isn't that interesting to compare (at least for me), and Cannon Fodder, Syndicate, Theme Park, and Soccer Kid (albeit as a Songbird release), none of which is exactly a technical showcase (Robinson's Requiem was never officially released on the Jaguar, but is available as a homebrew release, and Out of this World/Another World was a homebrew release on the Jaguar, so I suppose those could also be counted if one were so motivated).

Edited October 12, 2015 by Bill Loguidice

[LianneJaguar64]

I do feel that there is a far stronger Jaguar community than 3D0, as well as being a stronger homebrew scene... It's all very well and good to compare systems by 'back in the day', or whatever, but ultimately it's here and now that matters too...

[Sporadic]

 

I'm not sure I get your point.

 

That's because I didn't really make one. Just showed how Doom on 3do sucked compared to the Jag (or most other versions). Something to add to the comparison if anyone still cares

 

But either way, it doesn't matter which is better/worse. Whichever system has games you enjoy, that's what should be played with. It's all about the games and the enjoyment you get from them, so vs threads in their very nature are subjective to each individuals preference on what they prefer to play.