[AQUARIUS] Interest Check: Aquarius Controller Adapter

[jaybird3rd]

The discussion of Aquarius controller alternatives in another thread has given me an idea: would anyone be interested in a simple Aquarius adapter for Atari joysticks or Intellivision controllers? I'm thinking of a very inexpensive little M-to-F DB9 cable, probably about a foot long: you'd plug your controller into one end, and plug the other end directly into the Mini Expander hand controller port. The adapter will initially be configured for Atari joysticks, but it will also be reconfigurable for Intellivision II and Intellivision Flashback controllers.

The Aquarius hand controller port provides no power pin, so the design would have to be limited to what can be done only with a passive interface, so there will be certain limitations. With an Atari joystick, you of course have only one action button, so you'd need to use the keyboard for games which require additional buttons, in much the same way that several Atari computer games did. With the Intellivision controllers, the disc would work in the same way as the original, but the keypad and side buttons wouldn't be usable except with Aquarius games that are specifically programmed for them, so again you'd have to fall back on the keyboard. Nevertheless, it would provide an alternative for those who don't have working Aquarius hand controllers, or who would simply prefer to play Aquarius games with their favorite Atari-compatible joystick.

Let me know if you're interested, or if you have any questions!

[barnieg]

I'm certainly interested. I have a few ideas I'll commit to a post once I've got the Aquarius set up properly - need to solder up a tape lead.

 

first thoughts are that the ZX spectrum handled controller choices quite well - most games used a selection menu.

 

It's also worth considering what is the most common controller available which uses an Atari style connector - maybe Sega Genesis/Megadrive or Master system?

 

Apart from that I quite like the idea of using intellivision flashback controllers, anyone know if they are available separately?

[jaybird3rd]

For the games to handle different controllers, they have to be programmed to do so (as, presumably, the ZX Spectrum games were, if they offered different menu options). Mattel only released one controller for the Aquarius, and no third-party controllers were ever made for it, so the existing games assume that you're using either a hand controller or the keyboard.

 

The problem with Genesis/Megadrive controllers is that (according to the writeups I've seen) they require a +5V power input on Pin 5 to use all the buttons, and the Aquarius hand controller port does not supply this. You can still use the Genesis/Megadrive controller with an Atari-compatible adapter; you'll just be limited to one action button. This isn't as much of a limitation as you might think: I remember having to use both the joystick and keyboard with certain Atari 400/800 games, and it worked quite well.

[barnieg]

Yes that's correct the Spectrum started out with no Joystick port, that role was quickly filled by the Kempston Joystick interface which became a defacto standard, there was also the "cursor" interface (which I'm fuzzy on) . Sinclair introduced interface 2 which had 2 Atari ports so it was adopted in most games. Note: I had an Aquarius then Commodore 64 so my spectrum knowledge is based on filling in fuzzy memories of the Spectrum from various sources, A Spectrum fan can probably correct any inaccuracies

 

http://www.mobygames.com/game/zx-spectrum/robocop-2____/screenshots/gameShotId,480950/ is a good example.

 

"New" homebrew could be programmed to work specifically to a certain controller.

 

I found this which seems quite useful, http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/DB9-Joystick it would be quite nice to support 2 buttons, however once extra buttons were added the Atari port was not quite a universal standard.

 

 

Following a similar convention to the Robocop 2 screenshot an options screen could be:

 

1. KEYBOARD

2. AQUARIUS CONTROLLERS

3. INTELLIVISION-II or INTELLIVISION FLASHBACK *

4. ATARI

5. DEFINE KEYS/CONTROLS

*might be easier to obtain new flashback controllers

 

The above might be too many options (Maybe drop KEYBOARD and just let user define keys, however in general some routines could be coded once for use by all homebrewers

 

A lot easier for new software than hacking in support for old games. Out of interest could something like this be coded as an option for a mini-expander II to hook into the controller logic?

 

Note: One of the things I would like to do for my "Robotwon 2525" attempt is a joystick coupler similar to that included in Robotron 2084 for the various Atari Systems

 

 

 

 

For the games to handle different controllers, they have to be programmed to do so (as, presumably, the ZX Spectrum games were, if they offered different menu options). Mattel only released one controller for the Aquarius, and no third-party controllers were ever made for it, so the existing games assume that you're using either a hand controller or the keyboard. That is why new controller options will need to emulate the original hand controllers as much as possible.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2015 by barnieg

[jaybird3rd]

Just to make it clearer, here's how I envision that this will work. You'll be able to configure this adapter for three different controllers:

• Atari 2600
• Mattel Intellivision II
• Intellivision Flashback

(The last two options will be functionally the same; you'll just have to rearrange the pins since the Intellivision Flashback screwed up the pin configuration.)

In the future, Aquarius games will be able to support all of these controllers, and the original Aquarius hand controllers, with minimal effort by the programmer. The Intellivision controller is so similar to the Aquarius controller that the only changes will involve decoding the different keypad and action button codes; the disc can be read in exactly the same way as the Aquarius hand controller disc. The Atari 2600 joystick is a no-brainer: the stick maps directly to the disc, and the button to the first action key, so no changes need to be made to the software at all.

I envision games with a selection option for Aquarius or Intellivision controllers, with the Aquarius as the default. If you want to use Aquarius controllers, or the Atari 2600 joystick via the adapter, just plug them in and go! If you want to use the Intellivision controller (after you've configured the adapter properly), you'll just have to remember to choose that option, or else the buttons won't work in the way the game will expect.

But what about newer controllers, such as the Genesis, NES, or PlayStation controllers? Aside for the technical difficulties of supporting all these disparate controllers, I'd rather "keep it pure" by limiting myself to controllers that were contemporary to the Aquarius. The Intellivision was also a Mattel system, and the Atari joystick was the de facto standard that most computers of that time supported, so those seem to be obvious choices. The fact that both can be supported with a passive interface like this adapter makes them even more suitable. Supporting other controllers could become a slippery slope because everyone will have different ideas about which one would be the "ideal" Aquarius controller, and supporting them all (either in software or with different adapters) will quickly get messy.

[jaybird3rd]

The above might be too many options (Maybe drop KEYBOARD and just let user define keys, however in general some routines could be coded once for use by all homebrewers

 

A lot easier for new software than hacking in support for old games. Out of interest could something like this be coded as an option for a mini-expander II to hook into the controller logic?

 

Note: One of the things I would like to do for my "Robotwon 2525" attempt is a joystick coupler similar to that included in Robotron 2084 for the various Atari Systems

I agree, I'd like to avoid having to support too many controller options in new games (see my previous post, which I think crossed yours). The original Aquarius games always supported the keyboard, even if a hand controller was present, so that needn't be a separate option. Two hand controller choices (Aquarius and Intellivision) should be sufficient, since the Atari joystick will effectively "emulate" the Aquarius hand controller through the adapter.

 

Your idea of a joystick coupler would work perfectly with this adapter, too: since only the directionals are needed for a Robotron-style game, you could simply plug one adapter into each Aquarius hand controller port, and use one joystick for movement and the other for firing, just as Robotron on the Atari systems did (players who have them can even use Atari's couplers). The same game would also be able to support Aquarius or Intellivision controller discs, with one controller held in each hand for those who want to play that way, without your having to make any changes to the code.

[barnieg]

Sounds good It helps that I have a number of Atari compatible joysticks and its fairly easy to wire up a diy Atari Joystick Also funstock have imported the intellivision flashback, as I never had an intellivison it would be a decent way of getting more of a Mattel Gaming experience with out overloading the house with more retro stuff

 

 

Your point about newer controllers makes sense, keep it as simple as possible!

 

 

Just to make it clearer, here's how I envision that this will work: you'll be able to configure the adapter for three different controllers:

• Atari 2600
• Mattel Intellivision II
• Intellivision Flashback

(The last two options will be functionally the same; you'll just have to rearrange the pins since the Intellivision Flashback screwed up the pin configuration.)

In the future, Aquarius games will be able to support all of these controllers, and the original Aquarius hand controllers, with minimal effort by the programmer. The Intellivision controller is so similar to the Aquarius controller that the only changes will involve decoding the different keypad and action button codes; the disc can be read in exactly the same way as the Aquarius hand controller disc. The Atari 2600 joystick is a no-brainer: the stick maps directly to the disc, and the button to the first action key, so no changes need to be made to the software at all.

I envision games with a selection option for Aquarius or Intellivision controllers, with the Aquarius as the default. If you want to use Aquarius controllers, or the Atari 2600 joystick via the adapter, just plug them in and go! If you want to use the Intellivision controller (after you've configured the adapter properly), you'll just have to choose that option, or else the buttons won't work in the way the game will expect.

But what about newer controllers, such as the Genesis, NES, or PlayStation controllers? Aside for the technical difficulties of supporting all these disparate controllers, I'd rather "keep it pure" by limiting myself to controllers that were contemporary to the Aquarius. The Intellivision was also a Mattel system, and the Atari joystick was the de facto standard that most computers of that time supported, so those seem to be obvious choices. The fact that both can be supported with a passive interface makes them even more suitable. Supporting other controllers could become a slippery slope because everyone will have different ideas about which one would be the "ideal" Aquarius controller, and supporting them all (either in software or with different adapters) will quickly get messy.

[jaybird3rd]

Thanks for the information about the ZX Spectrum joystick interfaces! The Speccy wasn't well-known here in the US, so it's interesting to learn about how they handled the various controller options.

 

(By the way, I know that Mattel purists may object to the idea of using an Atari controller with a Mattel system, so if it helps, feel free to replace "Atari Joystick" in my earlier posts with "M Network TRON Joystick". )

[Aquaman]

I am sorry, but I rather wait for the Mini Expander II to hit the streets and in the meantime I just use my original Aquarius hand controllers.

[jaybird3rd]

I am sorry, but I rather wait for the Mini Expander II to hit the streets and in the meantime I just use my original Aquarius hand controllers.

That's fine. The Mini Expander II will have the Atari interface built-in, and the internal Mini Expander upgrade will include reconfigurable controller ports, so if you choose either of those options, you won't need this adapter. This is really a way for owners of the original Mini Expander to get in on the fun, too. I'll probably end up offering it as an optional accessory that people can order with their games.

[Aquaman]

That's fine. The Mini Expander II will have the Atari interface built-in, and the internal Mini Expander upgrade will include reconfigurable controller ports, so if you choose either of those options, you won't need this adapter. This is really a way for owners of the original Mini Expander to get in on the fun, too. I'll probably end up offering it as an optional accessory that people can order with their games.

Never keep to many people out of the fun is of course always a good idea!! But as you already said, the ME II will offer me this and more and that's why I intend just to buy that instead.

[jaybird3rd]

Never keep to many people out of the fun is of course always a good idea!! But as you already said, the ME II will offer me this and more and that's why I intend just to buy that instead.

Perfectly sensible.

 

This is an example of the kinds of difficulties you run into when trying to add new capabilities to an old platform. You can't bolt on new features haphazardly; you have to consider the cohesion of the whole system. We've already got the original Mini Expander, I'm planning the Mini Expander II, and I also want to do an internal Mini Expander, because I want to have the original Mini Expander's features without the bulky add-on module. The original Mini Expander included hand controllers, but the Mini Expander II and internal Mini Expander will not, and different people will choose different upgrade paths according to their needs and preferences, all while wanting other options for controllers.

 

So, how does one come up with a manageable controller standard that will work equally well with all of these different configurations? The ideas I've discussed here are my solution: reconfigurable Atari-compatible cables for the original and internal Mini Expanders that "emulate" the original Aquarius hand controllers, and a separate but functionally identical Atari interface in the Mini Expander II. Plus, the option of using Intellivision controllers for those who prefer something closer to the originals.

[barnieg]

At least for now I'm fairly certain of base specifications that I will use: Standard Aquarius with 16K Ram and a Tape Player (or suitable method of loading the "Tape" file)

 

This little project is a combination of a challenge to myself, getting back into "proper" coding and a bit of fun. I would like to do it as a proper retro release

 

Retro release would be 2 versions one for Tape, 1 for cart with keyboard overlay

 

The idea of a cart version would be to allow it to run on an Aquarius with no extra Ram.

 

Both versions would contain controller options (after the feedback from Jaybird keyboard would just work regardless of other controller selected) and AY sound options (I say AY sound because its not beyond the realms of possibility the someone creates a minimal sound cartridge to replicate mini-controller sound functions

 

So to summarise I would want any homebrew I create to work on as many Aquarius configs as possible

 

 

 

Never keep to many people out of the fun is of course always a good idea!! But as you already said, the ME II will offer me this and more and that's why I intend just to buy that instead.

Edited June 25, 2015 by barnieg

[Aquaman]

At least for now I'm fairly certain of base specifications that I will use: Standard Aquarius with 16K Ram and a Tape Player (or suitable method of loading the "Tape" file)

 

This little project is a combination of a challenge to myself, getting back into "proper" coding and a bit of fun. I would like to do it as a proper retro release

 

Retro release would be 2 versions one for Tape, 1 for cart with keyboard overlay

 

The idea of a cart version would be to allow it to run on an Aquarius with no extra Ram.

 

Both versions would contain controller options (after the feedback from Jaybird keyboard would just work regardless of other controller selected) and AY sound options (I say AY sound because its not beyond the realms of possibility the someone creates a minimal sound cartridge to replicate mini-controller sound functions

 

So to summarise I would want any homebrew I create to work on as many Aquarius configs as possible

 

 

 

Considering all the different configurations you are offering, I couldn't think of any Aquarius user to be left out on your "little project" (only if their Aquarius would be non functional in the first place of course).

[barnieg]

I think GroovyBee has mentioned an Adapter to allow a PlayStation 2 controller to work with an Atari 7800, I wonder if something like that would be practical for the Aquarius and the intellivision for that matter

[GroovyBee]

I think GroovyBee has mentioned an Adapter to allow a PlayStation 2 controller to work with an Atari 7800, I wonder if something like that would be practical for the Aquarius and the intellivision for that matter

Its certainly possible, but ideally you'd want to use a microcontroller to do the conversion for that otherwise all your games need to spend some time bit-bashing the interface to the PSX controller which isn't ideal.

[jaybird3rd]

Another problem (besides the ones already mentioned) is that any interface which requires a microcontroller would also require a power source. Unlike the Atari machines, neither the Aquarius nor the Intellivision controller ports provide a +5V pin, and using a battery or an AC adapter would be too much of a pain (trust me on this; in the bad old days before USB, I remember using parallel-port PlayStation controller adapters for the PC which required their own power sources). This is one reason I'm limiting myself to what can be done through an entirely passive interface.

[barnieg]

I've got another Atari CX-40 on its way so that should cover me for now!

 

 

Another problem (besides the ones already mentioned) is that any interface which requires a microcontroller would also require a power source. Unlike the Atari machines, neither the Aquarius nor the Intellivision controller ports provide a +5V pin, and using a battery or an AC adapter would be too much of a pain (trust me on this; in the bad old days before USB, I remember using parallel-port PlayStation controller adapters for the PC which required their own power sources). This is one reason I'm limiting myself to what can be done through an entirely passive interface.