Q-Bert - Fixed Feet/legs

[Tempest]

Is there a way to fix Q*Bert's eyes? I've always hated how he didn't have real eyes, just empty holes in his head. I'm guessing no since that would require another sprite or something along those lines, but I thought I'd ask because people on this board still surprise me with what they come up with after all these years.

[+Cafeman]

Is there a way to fix Q*Bert's eyes?

 

I just ran the game and all 4 Missile HPOS registers are stuck at $00. Thus, it seems safe to say they aren't used. Doesn't A800win4 or Altirra allow you to turn on/off players / missiles? Maybe I'm remember VSS or another emulator, but I could not find the option.

 

All you gotta do is draw 2 eye pixels in Missile 0 and 1, and coordinate both Missile0 and 1 HPOS values with Qbert when he is forward facing . In frames where his back is turned, you could just set the M0/M1 HPOS to $00 to hide the eyes. I have never tried to hack into an existing ROM (are there easy tools to do so?) so I can't do it as of today.

[+MrFish]

Is there a way to fix Q*Bert's eyes? I've always hated how he didn't have real eyes, just empty holes in his head. I'm guessing no since that would require another sprite or something along those lines, but I thought I'd ask because people on this board still surprise me with what they come up with after all these years.

 

Yeah, I agree. With games where the background for the sprites is a single constant color, it looks fine. But when you have a varied playfield it doesn't work as well. It would also be better to have colored eyes for the other characters as well.

 

 

I just ran the game and all 4 Missile HPOS registers are stuck at $00. Thus, it seems safe to say they aren't used. Doesn't A800win4 or Altirra allow you to turn on/off players / missiles? Maybe I'm remember VSS or another emulator, but I could not find the option.

 

All you gotta do is draw 2 eye pixels in Missile 0 and 1, and coordinate both Missile0 and 1 HPOS values with Qbert when he is forward facing . In frames where his back is turned, you could just set the M0/M1 HPOS to $00 to hide the eyes. I have never tried to hack into an existing ROM (are there easy tools to do so?) so I can't do it as of today.

 

OK, so at least it's possible. In that case I'm surprised it wasn't done in the first place. But then it's obvious they didn't take a lot of care with this port in the first place.

[Tempest]

. But then it's obvious they didn't take a lot of care with this port in the first place.

Actually I liked this port. I had it when I was a kid. Maybe I'm just nostalgic for it or something.

[José Pereira]

It works but can't be:

-> Missiles are in 5th Player Mode then they will take PF3 colour and that is one of the floor's colour that change across the game;

OR

-> Missiles for the eyes take two of the guys that have different colours and usually are darker luminances that woudn't still look right. And using Missiles from others beeing Qbert now using P3 less priority will mess when they overlap;

That is why they didn't use them and that is also the same reason in other Qbert type games that are using charmode.

Edited September 22, 2015 by José Pereira

[+MrFish]

Actually I liked this port. I had it when I was a kid. Maybe I'm just nostalgic for it or something.

 

I like it too; that's why I'm working on it. But it's obvious they cut some corners on it graphically.

[+Cafeman]

I liked the port quite a bit, too. I played the 5200 version all the time. I like the analog sticks - at least you have true diagonals, and don't have to rotate the controller in your hand 45 degrees, which always messes me up. If you want to stop, just release the fire button. But I agree with MrFish - I'm surprised they didn't use missiles for eyes. How hard could it have been, if the missiles aren't being used anywhere? With a little bit more care, you could do use missiles *and* multiplexing players and get more colors.

 

Never mind, read the above better explanation.

[+Cafeman]

You'd probably need to reprogram the graphics engine. How about this idea:

 

P0+P1 = 3 Color Q*bert.

P2 = all balls (red, purple, green) and green guy. None of these ever cross each other on the same horizontal scanline. Multiplex.

 

P3 = Coily. Since Coily backtracks upwards, he needds his own player.

Missiles as a 5th player = the two sideways guys. Multiplex / flicker where needed. Maybe it already does this?

[José Pereira]

I'll go to play the game and see if that works but instead of Qbert using P0+P1 I would have it P2+P3 instead.

Now he's P3 and it looks better when the enemys catches it them are above him because they have higher priority.

Edited September 22, 2015 by José Pereira

[+MrFish]

It works but can't be:

-> Missiles are in 5th Player Mode then they will take PF3 colour and that is one of the floor's colour that change across the game;

OR

-> Missiles for the eyes take two of the guys that have different colours and usually are darker luminances that woudn't still look right. And using Missiles from others beeing Qbert now using P3 less priority will mess when they overlap;

That is why they didn't use them and that is also the same reason in other Qbert type games that are using charmode.

 

You'd probably need to reprogram the graphics engine. How about this idea:

 

P0+P1 = 3 Color Q*bert.

P2 = all balls (red, purple, green) and green guy. None of these ever cross each other on the same horizontal scanline. Multiplex.

 

P3 = Coily. Since Coily backtracks upwards, he needds his own player.

Missiles as a 5th player = the two sideways guys. Multiplex / flicker where needed. Maybe it already does this?

 

Another option -- not really a solution to Q*bert's missing eyes -- is to use each Missile with it's parent Player to give 10 pixel wide sprites rather than 8 pixels wide sprites. Those extra 2 pixels per can be a big help when designing sprites.

 

I don't think there is currently any flickery multiplexing going on. It probably wouldn't look too bad at all, considering that there are never too many sprites on screen at once anyway.

Edited September 22, 2015 by MrFish

[+MrFish]

Starting to change some of the sprite and level colors. Also did a few other small graphic changes a few days after the last version was posted.

 

What's new:

 

1. New version of Q*bert's small likeness (Q*berts remaining)

2. Minor changes to big Q*bert's snout

3. Player "up" indicator graphic changed

4. Coily's color closer to arcade

5. Red ball is lighter red

6. Level One colors matched with arcade

7. "Player 1" / "Player 2" colors changed

 

I left Ugg and WrongWay purple even though they are supposed to follow suit with Coily. I think it's good to take this liberty, since the Atari has far fewer colors than the arcade and this is one way to add some extra color to the game. Purple is still close to the color they're supposed to be anyway. I may end up tweaking their colors some more.

 

Note: Colors all reflect NTSC values at this point.

 

Q-bert (Improvements 10-9).rom

Edited October 10, 2015 by MrFish

[FifthPlayer]

This might be because I'm looking at it on an emulator, but there doesn't seem to be much difference in the colors of Ugg/WrongWay versus Coily - Coily just looks a tad more bluish.

 

If you want to add more color to the game, maybe you might want to tweak them more to stand out from one another?

 

I didn't really like the new "small likeness" graphic at first, but I just compared with older versions and agree that the new version is a definite improvement.

 

(Update: I realize I wasn't comparing Ugg/WrongWay, but just the balls dropping from the skies. Time to flash this to a cart so I can see Ugg/WrongWay on real hardware).

Edited October 10, 2015 by FifthPlayer

[FifthPlayer]

Having played this game now on real hardware, I think the Coily sprite (purple) and the red ball are still a little too close in color. (I'm using S-video connected to an LCD TV for the comparison). I just looked at a YouTube video of the arcade machine and it seems like the red and purple hues there are a little easier to tell apart.

[+MrFish]

Alright, thanks for the feedback.

 

I thought the same thing when I first changed the colors before uploading the last ROM image. So I did change Coily back to purple at one point (before uploading the ROM). But I decided to switch him back to maroon because he's not purple in the arcade.

 

After that I tried working with the two colors to see if adjusting the luminances would make them look a little different and still provide suitable colors changes, but there really was no decent looking adjustment to be made there in my estimation. The resulting luminance adjustments all seemed to change the colors to something that looked further away from the arcade. The luminance they're both at is what looks best for them individually. They do look somewhat close in color when right next to each other, but it's still obvious there is a difference. The colors are right next to each other on the Atari's color scale. You can't move the ball over one color though, because then you're into Q*bert's color.

 

I did make another serious attempt at finding a suitable adjustment after posting the ROM and hearing your first comments, just to be sure. But no matter what combinations were tested, the results were always the same.

 

Realise that all the sprites also have to blend in with the background colors on all the different levels. When you change their luminance (darker or lighter), then you can start getting into color clash with the backgrounds as well (i.e.: characters will start blending in the with the backgrounds too much, and not have enough luminance contrast there). The Ataris have a decent sized palette, but it's not perfect, and certainly no match for what the arcades have in instances like this.

 

Some compromise is needed, and the most suitable compromise in my judgement is what you're seeing. I haven't tried it on actual hardware yet, because I don't have the hardware for using ROM images right now. But I'll transfer it over to an XEX at some point, and then I'll evaluate it once again on an actual 800XL.

 

Here is the Atari NTSC color palette and it's use for some of the characters being discussed.

 

Edited November 10, 2015 by MrFish

[+MrFish]

BTW, I did continue to work on the improvements after the last ROM post. I've got almost all the level colors adjusted near the arcade now (laborious task), and I've fixed the spinning disc so that the "slices" look proper. It's on the back burner now though, as I've turned my attention to some other projects.

Edited November 10, 2015 by MrFish

[Aking]

what about the 5200 version ?

please

[+MrFish]

I'll try and put together a 5200 version for testing the next time I release one for the A8's.

[FifthPlayer]

After that I tried working with the two colors to see if adjusting the luminances would make them look a little different and still provide suitable colors changes, but there really was no decent looking adjustment to be made there in my estimation. The resulting luminance adjustments all seemed to change the colors to something that looked further away from the arcade. The luminance they're both at is what looks best for them individually. They do look somewhat close in color when right next to each other, but it's still obvious there is a difference. The colors are right next to each other on the Atari's color scale. You can't move the ball over one color though, because then you're into Q*bert's color.

 

 

....

 

 

Realise that all the sprites also have to blend in with the background colors on all the different levels. When you change their luminance (darker or lighter), then you can start getting into color clash with the backgrounds as well (i.e.: characters will start blending in the with the backgrounds too much, and not have enough luminance contrast there). The Ataris have a decent sized palette, but it's not perfect, and certainly no match for what the arcades have in instances like this.

 

 

Thanks for outlining all the considerations that went into the color selections. Looking at the A8 color palette you posted and the assignments within it, I can see what you're up against. It seems like the A8 doesn't have enough granularity in its gamut of hues to match the color pallete of the arcade sprites. And, I never thought about the fact the sprites have to look good against all the background colors.

 

Finally, I'm picking nits. I love the work you've done with the game and I'm looking forward to the next round of tweaks, whenever you release them. Thanks.

[FifthPlayer]

As an aside, I found this other version of Q*Bert in the 5200 Hacks forum. It removes the stair-step dithering on the cube faces, and makes them solid.

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/194955-qbert-sound-fix/?p=2478465

 

I'm not sure how well this works - Q*Bert should require at least 6 colors including the background for the cube faces and all the cube states. but Atari playfields max out at 5 colors in this resolution. I'm sure that's why the dithering is there to begin with. But I wanted to bring it up here to get your thoughts on it, MrFish.

 

I did bring it up quickly on an emluator and wasn't impressed. The title screen has cube tops and side faces the same color. (I never got keyboard controls working on Atari800MacX so can't play further into it).

 

 

Edited November 11, 2015 by FifthPlayer

[+MrFish]

Thanks for outlining all the considerations that went into the color selections. Looking at the A8 color palette you posted and the assignments within it, I can see what you're up against. It seems like the A8 doesn't have enough granularity in its gamut of hues to match the color pallete of the arcade sprites. And, I never thought about the fact the sprites have to look good against all the background colors.

 

Finally, I'm picking nits. I love the work you've done with the game and I'm looking forward to the next round of tweaks, whenever you release them. Thanks.

 

There are other factors that play into it too, like the sprites not being mutlicolor. The arcade sprites are distinguished in part by the additional colors they have. The balls are also different sizes in the arcade, whereas on the A8 they used the same sprite shape for all of them.

 

 

As an aside, I found this other version of Q*Bert in the 5200 Hacks forum. It removes the stair-step dithering on the cube faces, and makes them solid.

 

I'm not sure how well this works - Q*Bert should require at least 6 colors including the background for the cube faces and all the cube states. but Atari playfields max out at 5 colors in this resolution. I'm sure that's why the dithering is there to begin with. But I wanted to bring it up here to get your thoughts on it, MrFish.

 

I did bring it up quickly on an emluator and wasn't impressed. The title screen has cube tops and side faces the same color. (I never got keyboard controls working on Atari800MacX so can't play further into it).

 

It doesn't look good to me at all, especially on the levels where the 5th color comes in, and then the newly solid colored sides get split between two colors.

 

I actually like the original dithering a lot. The only downside is that they didn't mask the sprites when they fall off the platforms. Instead they just change the P/M priority so they're behind the playfield, but then they end up showing through in the areas of dither. Also this priority flipping wasn't thought out well enough, and you get moments when Q*bert goes behind the disc he's supposed to be standing on -- when Coily is falling at the same time.

 

Masking would have worked out much better, and would only need calculations at the top and bottom, where the sprites would be clipped. After a certain point -- once they're completely behind the cube structure -- they wouldn't need to be drawn at all. They could have at least set up the priorities better though, so that Q*bert doesn't go behind his disc. It might be possible to set the priorities up correctly without too much difficulty. It's one of the things I've intended to look into at some point.

 

The 5200 hack will probably be of some use though, as it's initial purpose was to fix some sound glitches (which aren't present on the A8's). I'll probably get permission and use that as a basis for the 5200 version.

 

BTW, I made slight error on the image above, highlighting the colors for the sprites. Q*bert is actually $36 not $34. But the point still remains regarding hue closeness. I think I even considered moving Q*bert over to $26, but I decided that Q*bert's color of all the sprites should be a priority.

Edited November 11, 2015 by MrFish

[+MrFish]

Changes from a couple of days after the last posted version. I decided to post them now since I probably won't be messing with this for a while.

 

1. Most level colors adjusted to arcade

2. Disc "slices" improved

 

No 5200 version right now. I was attempting to copy over the changes a few minutes ago, and about half way through the copies I decided to see how everything was looking. I noticed some pixels on the "Q*bert" logo were the wrong color. So I pitched the ROM, thinking I'd messed something up. Then I decided to check the source ROM (the hacked one with the sound changes), and it had the same problems on the logo. So then I checked an original untainted ROM, and sure enough they were there too. I didn't feel like starting over with the copies at that point. So I decided it'll be better to just copy over everything when it's done (same with the XEX) -- and fix the problem with the logo at the same time. I'm probably going to improve the logo for them all anyway.

 

Almost all levels are color corrected now -- except the last set of rounds, I believe. The limitation in color matching with the arcade is that the one side using dithering with the background will always be darker than the color it's using to dither (obviously). Some levels have this reversed (dark on the left, light on the right, or two completely unrelated colors). So some compromises have been made in this area.

 

Some levels needed a little color tweaking, some a lot, and a very few none at all. Overall I compliment Parker Bros for how they did the colors, as they're quite good and it's not an easy task considering the limitations of the sprite colors and needing to make all of the graphics look good together. I'm also glad they chose not to use shared color palettes (as was done with Dig Dug, for instance, making changes more difficult).

 

Q-bert (Improvements 10-11) disc.rom

Edited November 15, 2015 by MrFish

[+therealbountybob]

Can we have an xex too please

[twh/f2]

Still waiting for the XEX

Btw, is there a possibility to make Q*Bert not as "ghost like" ?

[FifthPlayer]

Okay, I just had an idea regarding the earlier discussion about getting Q*Bert's eyes to show up using the missile sprites.

 

The problem is that the missiles all either have the colors of their corresponding player sprites (the bad guys), or in fifth-player mode, the missiles all share one of the playfield color. In neither case are they white like one would want for the eyeballs.

 

Would it be possible to use the multicolor sprite mode, and use the OR-bitwise value of the missiles intersecting with Q*bert's player sprite to produce a color very close to white? Perhaps two of the purpl-ish missiles could produce eyeballs that look really close to one another? Or, use the fifth player color?

 

Possible drawbacks might be funny color effects when the other sprites overlap during gameplay, so perhaps this may not work. But I wanted to toss the idea out there.

Edited July 13, 2016 by FifthPlayer

[sanny]

How about for the very lucky owners of the 14xx models, pushing random data to the SC-01 V: device as in the arcade game.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what are "14xx" models and what is the "SC-01 V:" device?