FPGA Based Videogame System

[Beer Monkey]

 

Wow, that's crazy! How much did Xbox 360 fighting games lag?

A couple of frames if playing on CRT. Add a couple more frames if playing on PS3 instead of 360. Add at least three more frames if playing on a typical flat panel HDTV at the time. If playing on a PC LCD, probably almost the same as CRT, maybe another half frame added.

 

https://youtu.be/uyrwGA5GND0?t=7

[RabidWookie]

A couple of frames if playing on CRT. Add a couple more frames if playing on PS3 instead of 360. Add at least three more frames if playing on a typical flat panel HDTV at the time. If playing on a PC LCD, probably almost the same as CRT, maybe another half frame added.

 

https://youtu.be/uyrwGA5GND0?t=7

 

Did Dreamcast and Gamecube have similar input lag? Any word on Nintendo Switch lag?

[Beer Monkey]

 

Did Dreamcast and Gamecube have similar input lag? Any word on Nintendo Switch lag?

DC and GCN definitely are lag free. In fact, Gamecubes and Wiis are used to test CRT lag for Smash tourneys, and the cumulative lag can come out measured in picoseconds, not even milliseconds (1 frame or field = 16.67ms).

 

The Wii combined with the low latency emulators of virtual console plus a CRT can make a very convincing classic experience, actually.

 

No idea about Switch.

 

Anything new can have a lot of lag depending on how the game is coded and how many graphical passes (shaders, effects) the rendering engine makes. The more powerful the system, the easier it is to develop an engine with high latency!

Edited January 9, 2018 by Beer Monkey

[RabidWookie]

DC and GCN definitely are lag free. In fact, Gamecubes and Wiis are used to test CRT lag for Smash tourneys, and the cumulative lag can come out measured in picoseconds, not even milliseconds (1 frame or field = 16.67ms).

 

The Wii combined with the low latency emulators of virtual console plus a CRT can make a very convincing classic experience, actually.

 

No idea about Switch.

 

Anything new can have a lot of lag depending on how the game is coded and how many graphical passes (shaders, effects) the rendering engine makes. The more powerful the system, the easier it is to develop an engine with high latency!

 

Does that apply to Wii U as well?

[hyrulebr]

A couple of frames if playing on CRT. Add a couple more frames if playing on PS3 instead of 360. Add at least three more frames if playing on a typical flat panel HDTV at the time. If playing on a PC LCD, probably almost the same as CRT, maybe another half frame added.

 

https://youtu.be/uyrwGA5GND0?t=7

 

Nvidia will launch a 4K 65 monitor with same lag results as a PC LCD (I think also 4K):

 

https://www.geforce.co.uk/whats-new/articles/bfgd-big-format-gaming-display

 

https://www.cnet.com/news/nvidia-bfgd-monitor-65-inch-4k-hdr-gaming-glory-ces-2018/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#ftag=CADf328eec

[Wolf_]

 

Nvidia will launch a 4K 65 monitor with same lag results as a PC LCD (I think also 4K):

 

https://www.geforce.co.uk/whats-new/articles/bfgd-big-format-gaming-display

 

https://www.cnet.com/news/nvidia-bfgd-monitor-65-inch-4k-hdr-gaming-glory-ces-2018/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#ftag=CADf328eec

He was talking about a flat panel from that era, although as the person asking the question wasn't limiting the technology that kinda exaggerates things greatly. Tbh it is not that difficult to find a flatscreen with under a frame of lag in today's market, but it is very exciting that we might have a high refresh 4k tv that can do it. IF it has under a frame of lag and is between 2-3 grand I would say that is an amazing buy. If it is between 5-6 grand I would say that's about what you can expect and depending on how happy you are with your current setup you'd be better off just waiting a few years until the price drops to half.

[Jagasian]

 

Wow, has anyone measured the input lag on a PS4 or Xbox One? The fighting game community especially requires zero input lag, might be why fighting games don't seem to be as popular this generation.

There is a free karaoke PS4 app and associated iphone app called Singstar that has a latency calibration mode. Clearly a game that requires precisely singing along with a song track, where you use your iphone as a microphone, needs to take the PS4 and flatscreen TVs lag into account. The calibration mode is easy to use. I tested my PS4 Pro hooked up to my Samsung TV. In game mode, latency is 90 milliseconds (5.5 frames lag) and without game mode, input lag is 120 milliseconds (7 frames lag).

[RabidWookie]

I guess I've got a great reason to keep all my Dreamcast fighting games! Now if only I could find a good svideo cable for hooking it up to my CRT...

[Beer Monkey]

 

Does that apply to Wii U as well?

 

Not sure. I know the gamepad lags. I know lots of the Virtual Console emulation engines lag. I know that Wii U has inaccurate chroma sampling for the vWii mode, including Nintendon't, and that it does some filtering scaling of the vWii image, even over component, even at 480i and 480p, making it a poor substitute for a Wii. Also, it can't output 240p for Virtual Console, unlike the Wii.

 

But I don't know how much lag is typical. Again, much depends on how the game is coded.

 

Tbh it is not that difficult to find a flatscreen with under a frame of lag in today's market

 

It's a tradeoff between latency and quality. Only OLED has the black levels and color accuracy, so far, that is good enough for me. There are definitely LCDs (called LEDs, but they are really just LED backlit, and have uniformity issues) that are under a frame, and of course PC monitors under a frame, but the vast majority of sets on the market lag multiple frames, period. I'm happy with less than 1.5 frames of lag on my OLED.

 

I'm interested in seeing what NVidia pulls off for sure.

 

Here's a database. You'll note very few under 16ms.

 

https://displaylag.com/display-database/

Edited January 10, 2018 by Beer Monkey

[Wolf_]

 

Not sure. I know the gamepad lags. I know lots of the Virtual Console emulation engines lag. I know that Wii U has inaccurate chroma sampling for the vWii mode, including Nintendon't, and that it does some filtering scaling of the vWii image, even over component, even at 480i and 480p, making it a poor substitute for a Wii. Also, it can't output 240p for Virtual Console, unlike the Wii.

 

But I don't know how much lag is typical. Again, much depends on how the game is coded.

 

 

It's a tradeoff between latency and quality. Only OLED has the black levels and color accuracy, so far, that is good enough for me. There are definitely LCDs (called LEDs, but they are really just LED backlit, and have uniformity issues) that are under a frame, and of course PC monitors under a frame, but the vast majority of sets on the market lag multiple frames, period. I'm happy with less than 1.5 frames of lag on my OLED.

 

I'm interested in seeing what NVidia pulls off for sure.

 

Here's a database. You'll note very few under 16ms.

 

https://displaylag.com/display-database/

It isn't hard ordering one from that list online. Also for now I would stay the hell away from oled. Super expensive and they get burn in and color degradation issues after a year or two of heavy use (sure you can take breaks and run special screen savers on them designed to reduce burn in but that isn't the gaming experience I want for that kind of money). And honestly the local dimming technology that even budget displays like TCL offers is completely fine as long as you aren't playing in direct sunlight or something. There are very few games where a single frame of lag is going to make a difference so a 17ms delay on a 55" 60hz 4k tv for $650 with decent but not perfect blacks is a fantastic gaming experience I wouldn't suggest spending the few grand to bump up to oled unless you have everything else you want in your gaming setup and are a ballin ass baller that can afford to replace it frequently.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Wolf_

[RabidWookie]

 

Not sure. I know the gamepad lags. I know lots of the Virtual Console emulation engines lag. I know that Wii U has inaccurate chroma sampling for the vWii mode, including Nintendon't, and that it does some filtering scaling of the vWii image, even over component, even at 480i and 480p, making it a poor substitute for a Wii. Also, it can't output 240p for Virtual Console, unlike the Wii.

 

All emulators introduce lag, which is one of the reasons I don't use them. I've always heard the Wii U via HDMI was the best way to play Wii discs in terms of picture quality, with everything else being identical to a Wii.

[Beer Monkey]

It isn't hard ordering one from that list online. Also for now I would stay the hell away from oled. Super expensive and they get burn in and color degradation issues after a year or two of heavy use (sure you can take breaks and run special screen savers on them designed to reduce burn in but that isn't the gaming experience I want for that kind of money). And honestly the local dimming technology that even budget displays like TCL offers is completely fine as long as you aren't playing in direct sunlight or something. There are very few games where a single frame of lag is going to make a difference so a 17ms delay on a 55" 60hz 4k tv for $650 with decent but not perfect blacks is a fantastic gaming experience I wouldn't suggest spending the few grand to bump up to oled unless you have everything else you want in your gaming setup and are a ballin ass baller that can afford to replace it frequently.

I watch a wide variety of content. I did get burn-in on my 2008 plasma, but the first signs of it showed up after eight years of usage. I'm not concerned.

 

My set was $1700 for a 65 inch 2017 OLED because I know how to work deals. I plan on upgrading every couple of years for a while since tech is evolving very quickly right now. Life is good. I can't stand even the best zone backlighting.

 

All emulators introduce lag, which is one of the reasons I don't use them. I've always heard the Wii U via HDMI was the best way to play Wii discs in terms of picture quality, with everything else being identical to a Wii.

Wii via 240p component output is super, super low lag FWIW. I can even play Punch-Out!! on it as well as I can with my AV Famicom on a CRT (I also game on CRTs). I can't even tell the difference.

 

There's also GroovyMame, optimized for low latency analog output on PCs.

 

But yeah, most emulators lag.

 

Wii U (for Wii and Gamecube games) via HDMI is a joke. Wii through an OSSC kills it for picture quality, and the OSSC only adds a small fraction of a single frame of lag. FPGAs to the rescue!

Edited January 10, 2018 by Beer Monkey

[leods]

For anyone reading this topic, be very careful with these comparisons and statements about input lag. The issue is complicated. Just because there's a video online of a comparison between PS3 and xbox 360 playing "the same game" it doesn't mean it's a representation of the general input lag you'll see in these systems. (yes, "the same game" in " " because it's not the actual same game. The game needs to be programmed specifically for each system, so they're NOT running the same code).

 

The discussion is valid, it's something to worry about, and also worth investigating. It is very complex though, and needs it's own thread of discussion if people want to do an actual researched and meaningful discussion on the topic, and not throw out completele bullshit statements like "fighting games have zero lag" or something of the sort.

 

Just to exemplify how this discussion isn't as simple as it seems:

 

Street Fighter III Third Strike Lag Results (numbers shown in frames)
CPS3 - 3.6 (since some people here in the discussion seem to know nothing about the topic I'll clarify, CPS3 is the arcade machine for the game. This is the official Capcom released arcade game. Yes, it has 3,6 frames of input lag, just like most oldschool fighting games from capcom always had.)
PS2 - 4.7
PS3 (filters off) - 3.8 oh wonder, only 2ms more than the arcade machine?
PS3 (filters on) - 3.8
360 (filters off) - 4.1
360 (training mode) - 3.9 3ms more than the machine?
Dreamcast - 6. no. The Dreamcast doesn't "lag". It's just the port. Relax. The Dreamcast is fine. This port is not that great though, as far as input lag goes. Still, unless you actually know how to play fighting games well, which you probbaly don't if you actually believed PS3 is a laggy system, you will never perceive these 2 frames of extra lag for this game.

 

For testing methodology: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/188150/3rd-strike-lag-speed-tests

 

Now since I already posted, I'll just throw this out there: I'm blocking people left and right in this thread, just because I'm really tired of pages upon pages of straight up bullshit every single day. So you guys, just post all you want. I don't even care anymore at this point. Just don't wonder why I am ignoring your posts. It's just cause I can't see them at all.

Edited January 10, 2018 by leods

[LewisD]

This was posted by an Analogue rep on Twitter a few hours ago:

 

.@DaltonJDeuce @gamespite maybe we'll be releasing a way for all Super Nt users to play on CRTs...?

 

Seems like an analog output add on is in the works for Super NT.

[Toth]

This was posted by an Analogue rep on Twitter a few hours ago:

 

.@DaltonJDeuce @gamespite maybe we'll be releasing a way for all Super Nt users to play on CRTs...?

 

Seems like an analog output add on is in the works for Super NT.

That would be cool. Hopefully they will produce enough of them.

[Mycah]

I'm still on the fence about the Super NT, analogue had some rough previous launches.

 

Does anyone remember what they did with previous consoles, did they send review systems to gaming websites to post about before release? It'd be nice to get some reviews before I put my money down.

 

Otherwise I guess I'll wait until after launch and see how things go. Hopefully they have a decent number of them, so it won't be a long ass wait.

[scott64]

That would be cool. Hopefully they will produce enough of them.

Hopefully it's not a feature they'll add into a second run of the system after I've already pre-ordered mine.. I can't imagine how it would be possible to create an analog add on unless it was part of their plan all along.

[RabidWookie]

Hopefully it's not a feature they'll add into a second run of the system after I've already pre-ordered mine.. I can't imagine how it would be possible to create an analog add on unless it was part of their plan all along.

I would think it'd have to be a converter that converts the digital signal to analog and add signal degredation and/or lag.

[Beer Monkey]

Hopefully it's not a feature they'll add into a second run of the system after I've already pre-ordered mine.. I can't imagine how it would be possible to create an analog add on unless it was part of their plan all along.

 

HDMI to RGBHV adapters already exist, are affordable, do NOT lag (they don't buffer even a single frame...that would drive cost up). They don't need to degrade the signal any more than any digital to analog conversion does inside a console itself.

 

It would be pretty damned easy to take an existing design and add 240p support to it.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Beer Monkey

[Great Hierophant]

I'm still on the fence about the Super NT, analogue had some rough previous launches.

 

Does anyone remember what they did with previous consoles, did they send review systems to gaming websites to post about before release? It'd be nice to get some reviews before I put my money down.

 

Otherwise I guess I'll wait until after launch and see how things go. Hopefully they have a decent number of them, so it won't be a long ass wait.

 

The original Nt's launch was not the smoothest and could have been disastrous without the critical assistance of kevtris. Kevtris only adapted his Hi-Def NES mod to the Nt, he did not design the Nt. He designed the Nt Mini and that launch went pretty smoothly. The Super Nt should launch with equal smoothness. Review systems were sent to many prominent Youtube channels. As long as their have consoles to sell, there will be an open pre-order and sale page.

[+remowilliams]

Now since I already posted, I'll just throw this out there: I'm blocking people left and right in this thread, just because I'm really tired of pages upon pages of straight up bullshit every single day. So you guys, just post all you want. I don't even care anymore at this point. Just don't wonder why I am ignoring your posts. It's just cause I can't see them at all.

 

If you don't mind, please send me that block list via PM.

 

I'm quite interested in the original intent of this thread, but its been so full of (often completely incorrect) and/or extraneous crap that I'm on the verge of just ignoring the whole damn thing.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

If you don't mind, please send me that block list via PM.

 

I'm quite interested in the original intent of this thread, but its been so full of (often completely incorrect) and/or extraneous crap that I'm on the verge of just ignoring the whole damn thing.

I disagree. Much of the content in this thread, including side discussions, has brought up interesting opinions and viewpoints for a range of different issues such as the growing pains of converting from vintage analog to modern digital display technology.

 

You want updates to the Kevtris project when there are none. Lots of people with varying interests subbed to a hot topic regarding an as of yet unreleased product. Of course there will be speculation. And I've enoyed reading each and every post.

[cacophony]

And here's what happens when the Nt Mini goes out of stock with no indication from Analogue regarding additional manufacturing runs:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAND-NEW-Analogue-Nt-mini-system-Nintendo-NES-video-game-Console/173074280001

[RabidWookie]

I disagree. Much of the content in this thread, including side discussions, has brought up interesting opinions and viewpoints for a range of different issues such as the growing pains of converting from vintage analog to modern digital display technology.

 

You want updates to the Kevtris project when there are none. Lots of people with varying interests subbed to a hot topic regarding an as of yet unreleased product. Of course there will be speculation. And I've enoyed reading each and every post.

Same here. Well, except the ones about block lists.

[Beer Monkey]

Does anyone know a complete list of POKEY 7800 hacks and homebrew releases that work in the NT Mini? Aka that aren't coded for the XM module? Any XM POKEY games being modified to also support the Mini?