FPGA Based Videogame System

CZroe · October 19, 2018

The Neo Geo is just not popular enough for a stand alone system, not with SO many easier, cheaper ways to play the handful of games that have any name recognition. The PC Engine console is a non-starter for the same reason. The cost of R&D and manufacturing vs the number of people who would actually want it would never be worth it. It's easy for people like us to forget how much the audience for old consoles falls off a cliff if it's not Nintendo, Sony, or the Genesis. Analogue is a small outfit that can't afford a flop. A Neo Geo console would only sell to hardcore nerds. A Genesis, SNES, or NES console would attract normies and people with a casual interest.

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How did they ever survive their own earlier offerings then?

Neo Geo is different in that a lot of people grew up playing it with dreams of owning it but didn’t. Looking at past game and console sales is silly from that perspective.

You also forget that the original hardware leaves a lot more room for premium pricing while still delivering a value. What they don’t make up for in sales may be made up for with profit. Obviously, Terra Onion was able to afford two Neo Geo FPGA products to found their company despite the fact that their customers have to already own expensive hardware and still have to pay over $500 for the flash cart.

Without the need to already own expensive hardware, an Analogue Ng with an SD card jailbreak would be much more marketable than NeoSD and NeoSD Pro.

Edited October 19, 2018 by CZroe

DragonGrafx-16 · October 19, 2018

I wish someone would make a new FPGA based Super CD Rom for the PC-Engine/TurboGrafx-16... there is the addon that lets you play ISOs but I like collected real games.

AtariNerd · October 19, 2018

One could speculate as to the reason they are giving the nod that this is an inclusive SEGA 8/16-bit system, as compared to the SNT, considering the difference in just how alive SEGA and Nintendo are and how active they seem to be handing and pursuing TM dispute. (I know, probably many technical hurdles, as well and they may re-investigate the possibilties with future products or firmware configurations. ) I wonder if the extra cores in the SG system, for the hand-helds, etc, will be something that will need to be downloaded and installed to flash (most-likely), after flashing a jail-break or possibly something included onboard from the outset, the adapters automagically queuing the loading of the correct core. Unlikely, but that would be cool.

Edited October 19, 2018 by AtariNerd

Andromeda Stardust · October 20, 2018

I want it so bad ... but I am not sure it is really in line to be next.

If Analogue were to make an FPGA version of AES they should also make the MVS version of it for all those people that wants it in their cabinet and wants to use MVS carts.

Alternatively they can build it with dual slot support (MVS and AES) but that's 4 giant connectors LOL .... maybe there's more market for the TG16/PCE who knows.

For sure there's plenty of opportunities to release an Atari version (2600/7800/5200 combo) and/or an all 8bit 9-pins combo (CV/Intv2/CreatiV... and maybe also 2600/7800) ... other than that I really don't know.

Or maybe now it's time for the all-in-one that covers the NtMini+SuperNt+MegaSg (Zimba3K finally).

Super NT and Mega SG both have much beefier FPGAs (potentially the same hardware with different I/O ports?) than the NT Mini and retail for $189. NT Mini has a beefier FPGA than AVS which retails for $185, has two cart slots, four controller ports, and a 15-pin expansion port. NT Mini already has JB firmware.

Mega SG and Super NT have nearly the same footprint and form factor, styling aside. NES has 72 pins (including the mostly unused data pins), more than any other retro system except perhaps Neo Geo.

So a "cost reduced" NT Mini is definitely feasible. Drop the 3rd and 4th controller port and analog video but keep the expansion port. This gives you all the capabilities and I/O of the NES2 plus the AV Famicom.

So play NES games out of the box. Throw in a complementary Famicom Adapter, or bake it into the system. Doesn't matter. This will be NT Micro, also the basis for the Zimba3000. All the 8-bit systems in one box.

We are going full PolyMega style with cartridge adapters for Atari 2600/7800, 8-bit/XEGS, 5200, Coleco, Intelli, etc. Lynx, GB, to cover the handhelds. No Sega stuff since that is already covered by the Mega SG. These cart adapters will all have necessary controller ports baked into them. Jailbreak firmware will also handle the really obscure stuff. Continued support allows several classic arcade games to run, like Pacman/Donkey Kong, etc... (put decompressed MAME ROMs on the SD card)

Oh yeah, and Kevtris just drops another 16-bit FPGA powerhouse, a TG-16 supporting Japanese/US Hucards out of the box. HDMI output, no expansion connector. Okay here's where it gets good. The FPGA is powerful enough to handle the Turbo CD optical drive emulator. One week after release, an "anonymous" hacker drops a jailbreak firmware. Run Turbo CD ISOs off the SD card!

Andromeda Stardust · October 20, 2018

Just musing here.

So my super NT order (day 1, October 2017) was #51XX.

My Mega SG order (also day 1, October 2018) was #176XX.

So while there's no official count of systems sold, that's over 10,000 orders within a single year. Business has been good. Keep it up... :thumbsup:

F34R · October 20, 2018

Here is a timeline for mine...

Jan 4, 2017 - NT Mini - 32xx

Oct 16, 2017 - Super NT - 53xx

Feb 6, 2018 - Super NT - 87xx

Oct 16, 2018 - Mega SG - 171xx

Andromeda Stardust · October 20, 2018

Are there actually a lot of people in North-America with collections of TG16/PCE games just waiting for an FPGA solution?

Raises hand.

DragonGrafx-16 · October 20, 2018

Raises hand.

Me too.. as I had posted above... I would like the Core and the CD-Rom to be separate like the real console. As an owner of a real PC-Engine CoreGrafx... it would be awesome to have a new more reliable CD-Rom attachment that would work with the original core system. Though that would mean needing to come up with a new BIOS HuCard.

Andromeda Stardust · October 20, 2018

Since the Mega SG has DB9 connectors for the controllers, couldn't this already be done through cartridge adaptors? It all comes down to whether or not old controllers (like a ColecoVision controller for example) work on the Mega SG.

gnd is pin 8 and vcc pin 5 on sega. vcc is pin 7 on atari. other consoles have other pinouts. if vcc and gnd are hard wired, it may not be possible to accomodate other pinouts.

Andromeda Stardust · October 20, 2018

Me too.. as I had posted above... I would like the Core and the CD-Rom to be separate like the real console. As an owner of a real PC-Engine CoreGrafx... it would be awesome to have a new more reliable CD-Rom attachment that would work with the original core system. Though that would mean needing to come up with a new BIOS HuCard.

nearly all 4th gen cd systems are flakey as hell and in dire need of recaps. i dont have a sega cd or turbo cd. too expensive for a jankey addon that could fail at any moment. sega never caught on much but half of the turbo/pce library is on cd. there is a cd emulator for pce i may get eventually, but i'd love a jb fpga solution.

LewisD · October 20, 2018

An FPGA Neo Geo is a ridiculous idea. Who is the market for it? There aren't tons of people out there who own stacks of cartridges. There aren't tons of cartridges out there. No one will start collecting AES or MVS carts because of a new system from analogue. And the flash carts are way too expensive for the average person to consider. NES, SNES, and Genesis are easy because everyone remembers them, tons of people have collections already, used games and accessories are common as dirt, and the flash carts are reasonably priced if one wants to go that route. The Neo Geo is extremely niche and its fans really overestimate it's popularity, particularly the popularity of the hardware. A dedicated FPGA console makes zero sense.

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Wow. Zetastrike has decided for everyone that we dont want a Analogue Neo Geo. He knows exactly how many cartridges are out there, and knows everyones future collecting habits before they do. The Neo Geo is too expensive for him to collect, so it must be too expensive for everyone else too. It just doesnt make sense because Zetastrike says so! Hell, maybe Analogue should hire him to map their corporate product roadmap for the next ten years since he seems to be a god!

Andromeda Stardust · October 20, 2018

Wow. Zetastrike has decided for everyone that we dont want a Analogue Neo Geo. He knows exactly how many cartridges are out there, and knows everyones future collecting habits before they do. The Neo Geo is too expensive for him to collect, so it must be too expensive for everyone else too. It just doesnt make sense because Zetastrike says so! Hell, maybe Analogue should hire him to map their corporate product roadmap for the next ten years since he seems to be a god!

How many Neo Geo home consoles were sold? Well under a million.

I hate to say it, but Zeta has a point.

Atari VCS: 30 million.

NES: 60 million.

Genesis: 30 million.

SNES: 40 million.

Neo Geo AVS << 1 million. ***NEWSFLASH: ARCADE MACHINE SALES DO NOT COUNT AS HOME CONSOLE SALES***

Let me repeat that for you...

***NEWSFLASH: ARCADE MACHINE SALES DO NOT COUNT AS HOME CONSOLE SALES***

Do the math. We have FPGA home consoles for 3 out of 4 of the above.

Neo Geo is at least an entire order of magnitude and a half lower in volume of sales. How many Consolized MVS did Analog sell? How many NT? NT Mini? AVS? (yes, I'm aware the AVS is retrousb, but it's comparable in price range and function to the Super NT and Mega SG).

I would bet that Analogue has tons more sales of the Super NT and Mega SG. Hell the Turbografx / PC engine sold 5.8 million combined. There will be a Turbografx FPGA (with optical drive emulator) long before a Neo Geo appears. As expensive as it is getting to collect hucards for the Turbografx / PC Engine, it is still orders of magnitude cheaper to collect for than Neo Geo.

How did they ever survive their own earlier offerings then?

Neo Geo is different in that a lot of people grew up playing it with dreams of owning it but didn’t. Looking at past game and console sales is silly from that perspective.

You also forget that the original hardware leaves a lot more room for premium pricing while still delivering a value. What they don’t make up for in sales may be made up for with profit. Obviously, Terra Onion was able to afford two Neo Geo FPGA products to found their company despite the fact that their customers have to already own expensive hardware and still have to pay over $500 for the flash cart.

Without the need to already own expensive hardware, an Analogue Ng with an SD card jailbreak would be much more marketable than NeoSD and NeoSD Pro.

Czroe, Analogue has spoken. Sega Genesis and Super Nintendo are tons more marketable than Neo geo.

How many wooden MVS consoles did Analogue sell? How many Super NTs? Mega SGs? They are not gonna revisit Neo Geo. It is done, forever locked away as expensive boutique collectibles, trophy shelf queens never to be played.

You said no way they'll do a Sega without CD/32X support out of the box. Nobody will buy it without the addons. They did. It is selling like gangbusters. Sure you need original CD unit to play CDs, and the 32X will require the dac converter, but they did it.

*drops mic*

Andromeda Stardust · October 20, 2018

It's more fun if you pick a side and participate!

Sega VS SNK...

FIGHT!

Sega wins. Fatality... :evil:

+1. I'm gonna feel stupid if the day after I finally break down and buy the Gamerz Tech RetroGen, Analogue drops news of an

FPGA Sega console.

Good thing they made the announcement the day before, LOL! Dodged a bullet with that one. Okay, really gotta stop trolling this thread. :dunce:

Just really excited to get the true Sega package... :grin:

LewisD · October 20, 2018

How many Neo Geo home consoles were sold? Well under a million.

I hate to say it, but Zeta has a point.

Atari VCS: 30 million.

NES: 60 million.

Genesis: 30 million.

SNES: 40 million.

Neo Geo AVS << 1 million. ***NEWSFLASH: ARCADE MACHINE SALES DO NOT COUNT AS HOME CONSOLE SALES***

Do the math. We have FPGA home consoles for 3 out of 4 of the above.

Neo Geo is at least an entire order of magnitude and a half lower in volume of sales. How many Consolized MVS did Analog sell? How many NT? NT Mini? AVS? (yes, I'm aware the AVS is retrousb, but it's comparable in price range and function to the Super NT and Mega SG).

I would bet that Analogue has tons more sales of the Super NT and Mega SG. Hell the Turbografx / PC engine sold 5.8 million combined. There will be a Turbografx FPGA (with optical drive emulator) long before a Neo Geo appears. As expensive as it is getting to collect hucards for the Turbografx / PC Engine, it is still orders of magnitude cheaper to collect for than Neo Geo.

You are basing your opinion on sales numbers for a console that had minimal advertising and an exorbitant price. It didnt sell millions of units because it was priced 3x the MSRP of the competition. You are not taking into consideration the 25+ years worth of growing popularity in the console and its games. If you think Analogue will sell more TG16s then Neo Geo, you are delusional. Edited October 20, 2018 by LewisD

phoenixdownita · October 20, 2018

KEVTRIS .... assuming you're not already under NDA for the next year worth of products ....

what would you prefer to build if you had a choice?

Nt Mini/Micro redux?

8bit 9pins all-in-one?

Atari 2600/7800/5200?

PCE/TG16?

NeoGeo?

YouGuysAreNutsImGoingToHawaii?

brentonius · October 20, 2018

You are basing your opinion on sales numbers for a console that had minimal advertising and an exorbitant price. It didnt sell millions of units because it was priced 3x the MSRP of the competition. You are not taking into consideration the 25+ years worth of growing popularity in the console and its games. If you think Analogue will sell more TG16s then Neo Geo, you are delusional.

I think "delusional" is somewhat over the top there... Kosmic Stardust may have a point.

It's true, I have actual PC Engine games sitting around, and no Neo Geo games. Most non-retro gamer people I know have never even heard of the Neo Geo, yet they have heard of the PC Engine. Most retro gamers I know have dreams of owning a PC Engine, or have gone down many expensive paths to PC Engine ownership. Many want the CD component, and if an FPGA PC Engine included the ability to play the CDs... wow... it would be a winner. It would also remove the burden of purchasing that very expensive TerraOnion add-on, the Super SD System Three. An Analogue solution that gives us everything in a brand-spanking-new 'analogue has never done this before' fashion would be great. I am totally guessing and pulling this next information right out of my arse, but I'd guess that implementing a PC Engine plus CD system would be cheaper than a Neo Geo both in time and hardware cost. I would love it if it actually included a CD component... but of course, we'd all love the solid state.

Even the PC Engine is a bit niche, but the Neo Geo is very very niche. Not to say Analogue doesn't fill niches... they certainly do... however, I think it might make more financial sense to them to release an FPGA solution that would sell in a much more solid fashion.

So while it would be great to get an FPGA Neo Geo, I'd totally love it, I cannot see why Analogue would want to release a less popular niche-of-the-niche product before a sure winner like an FPGA PC Engine.

Andromeda Stardust · October 20, 2018

KEVTRIS .... assuming you're not already under NDA for the next year worth of products ....

what would you prefer to build if you had a choice?

---> YouGuysAreNutsImGoingToHawaii?

Enjoy Hawaii Kevtris! :grin:

Jurai · October 20, 2018

All of us would like an fpga neogeo w/ hdmi etc, but from a business standpoint it really just doesn't make sense. They already sold a boutique Neogeo system out the gate, and people who were willing to spend the money probably bought it or have a solution set up with a scaler and have invested a good chunk of change into that. Neo Geo fans like to be loud but let's face it, most people did not have a Neo Geo sitting in their living room growing up, and do not have any desire to start spending the requisite amount of money to build a Neo Geo cart collection for the games most people are actually familiar with.

The Super NT sold like hotcakes, and I imagine that the Mega SG is as well. The best move that Analogue could make in the immediate future is absolutely a reduced cost NT Mini at a $150 price point, they could probably get people to pay the same price as SuperNT/MegaSG but I think the lower price would profit more on sold units. After that I think N64 would be the best 'sell units' choice from a business perspective, since N64 has no direct RGB path without modifying the system or installing an UltraHDMI, but Kevtris has been up front that it would be a pretty large task just on a technical level, without factoring in the cost for an appropriate FPGA etc into the equation so it might not even be feasible.

Maybe they could go straight at even more retro stuff like Atari/Intellivision/etc, I could see the nostalgia market perhaps being there

DragonGrafx-16 · October 20, 2018

An FPGA Neo Geo could work if they got enough licensing to include most of the games and just have the games built in ROM. But that seems like something better for SNK to do themselves. I mean there's the Neo Geo Mini arcade, but I think a stand-alone unit would be better. And even better if it had hardware instead of just software emulation.

Edited October 20, 2018 by TravisHuckins

Pixelboy · October 20, 2018

gnd is pin 8 and vcc pin 5 on sega. vcc is pin 7 on atari. other consoles have other pinouts. if vcc and gnd are hard wired, it may not be possible to accomodate other pinouts.

Ah, okay. Thanks for the info.

seastalker · October 20, 2018

About the four Mega SG options. Are the black shells the same identical black with the only difference being the buttons? In one photo they look different and in the other pic the same. The white color Mega SG would really tempt me if they made it look like a SG-1000; quite an expensive system now. Maybe someone will make decals. I just adore that console's sporty 'tennis sock" stripes. I wonder if the rare mega drive modem will fit... or imagine getting the game gear adapter to plug in your tv tuner... to finally watch tv on your tv, haha. [An 'Analogue' broadcast could still work... it could be the sega baby monitor.]

P.s. I wasn't aware the Uppergrafx for TG16/PCE could also play games and ISO images like the Super SD System 3.

Reaperman · October 20, 2018

And here I thought this thread would get less ugly when the 'SEGA!SEGA!SEEEAAAGGGAA!' crap stopped.

While there aren't too many neo geo collectors out there, one thing that is worth noting is that the scene is more split than other consoles, in that many have made a choice to collect primarily for MVS or AES, because of the costs and annoyances associated with doing both. I made the choice to go MVS as the games are more common, but that doesn't mean I don't have a few AES titles sitting around (that I can't play). Also, a lot of the earlier games are much less expensive and easier to find on AES (believe it or not) and I'd love to snatch them up. It seems silly for me to buy an AES console that doesn't play most of my collection, unless I also buy an adapter that costs almost as much as a basic MVS/supergun.

Even though, like many, I never had a Neo Geo back in the day, I sure did rent one, a credit at a time, a whole lot. A lot of people passing by do recognize the 1/6 model of one I keep at my desk at work. (granted fully 3 times that number think it's a sega)

but now we're 'ATARI!ATARI!AAAATTTARRI!'

Sure atari, but 2600 is about the most boring one.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Reaperman

seastalker · October 20, 2018

Reaperman, yes. I avoid the bickering and am only thankful for what does get put out there. I'm excited for the Mega SG and to me, the more FPGA recreations the better. I am starting to get burnt out on spending time past LEARNING initially about a system than to mess with recap jobs and repairs.

Commercial sense or not, with FPGA, eventually someone will make whatever can be done. I'm hopeful for Kevtris level quality because it is great having a timestamp of 'reference quality' vs. nearly there. Still, I appreciate ALL efforts at recreation. If a company doesn't make one, eventually a core for a MiST or Mister device will surface. I can't justify the electricity for multiple arcade machines and don't have the space or money. I am VERY happy with the arcade cores for MiST in this regard. The CollectorVision project is great but again, I'm happy with the Coleco core on the MiST. With new NT minis not in the foreseeable future, maybe we will get some of Kevtris's more obscure cores if not deemed a lost commercial possibility.

bikerspade · October 20, 2018

Here is my Analogue order timeline:

Mar 3, 2017 - NT Mini - 34xx

May 31, 2017 - NT Mini - 37xx

Oct 16, 2017 - Super NT - 48xx

Oct 16, 2018 - Mega SG - 167xx

Laner · October 20, 2018

My hope for the next Analogue device is a dedicated 2600/7800 box (Stella AT?), with full cartridge/controller support. I have an NT Mini, but the lack of paddle support in the jailbreak FW grieves my soul.

(and 5200/8-bit support as long as I'm wishing out loud...)

Edited October 20, 2018 by Laner

FPGA Based Videogame System

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System 682 members have voted

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