Andromeda Stardust Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I also think the "why composite video?" issue should be addressed. Why take the digitial signals generated on the FPGA board and convert them to interlaced analog composite when you natively have RGB ? Just so you can reuse a cheapo SNES cable and connector? On top of that, they lug a composite tube monitor from Cali to New York as a display when a DVI to HDMI adaptor and a much lighter LCD TV would have sufficed. Makes absolutely no sense. Maybe because the vast majority of NTSC consumer displays, new or retro, do not support native RGB. RGB mods are totally lost on me. Without extra expensive upscalers to convert them to something else the average gamer can use, the mods are a waste IMO. Might as well go full HDMI or just keep the stock composite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Anyone remember the hardware you could buy (and probably sill can buy) that let you you plug in JAMMA boards and play them on a regular TV. Came with it's own joysticks too. Maybe Mike is making the modern equivalent -- a system you could plug real cartridges and console motherboards (sans shell) like JAMMA boards. SuperGun? A cartridge has so much redundant, superfluous stuff that in my mind, it's pretty much the same thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsdee Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Anyone remember the hardware you could buy (and probably sill can buy) that let you you plug in JAMMA boards and play them on a regular TV. Came with it's own joysticks too. You mean Superguns? They're still around in a variety of shapes and sizes. I have the "advanced" version of this: http://www.smallcab.net/supergun-light-p-270.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Anyone remember the hardware you could buy (and probably sill can buy) that let you you plug in JAMMA boards and play them on a regular TV. Came with it's own joysticks too. Maybe Mike is making the modern equivalent -- a system you could plug real cartridges and console motherboards (sans shell) like JAMMA boards. Jamma adapters make too much sense. That's something people might actually have a use for. Chameleon exists in RetroLand, where useless collectibles and flashy colors trump all practicality of owning an actual game machine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Nick Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) Not only do they not make sense for the product, but last time Mike announced them, it was literally just before the crowdfunding page on IGG went live. I wonder what kind of crazy,"out there" announcements he will make this time, only to be missing from the KS? Perhaps it will be the collecovision/intelliIvison controllers. EDIT: I was talking about the cart adapters. Thread moves too fast! Edited February 23, 2016 by Retro Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_ocelot Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Maybe because the vast majority of NTSC consumer displays, new or retro, do not support native RGB. RGB mods are totally lost on me. Without extra expensive upscalers to convert them to something else the average gamer can use, the mods are a waste IMO. Might as well go full HDMI or just keep the stock composite. Isn't it easier (and cleaner) to go from the digital signals to something suitable for HDMI? Hate to say it, if I was at a trade show and saw them playing games on one of those luggable VHS-TV combos from the 90s I'd laugh my ass off. It's worth noting that the early pictures of the Chameleon playing a game but not in the clear plastic cube it's displaying on precisely this type of monitor. For the later pictures and video of the CC in the cube it's displaying on a modern LCD via composite. Maybe someone did walk up to them and laugh -- and just maybe they ran out to Best Buy and splurged on a TV that looks like it's from this century. Why bother to lug that tube TV on a plane or in a car across the freaking continent? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prince_david Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 prince_david @prince_david Feb 21 @RETROVGS I helped on indiegogo before and want to get behind this but I am freaked out if you guys shoved a SNES in that shell >_> 0 retweets0 likes Reply Retweet Like More User Actions Following COLECO Chameleon@RETROVGS @prince_david that is untrue. Our software was running the games. We will prove a lot more on the Kickstarter page. 9:45 PM - 22 Feb 2016 0 retweets0 likes Reply Retweet Like More https://twitter.com/RETROVGS/status/701976252547096578 That was me! I am trying to really grasp what's going on here with them so I have been poking around. Everything I have been reading including responses from them point to the fact that indeed there is an SNES or something in that shell. I am not fully sure yet about that though. It looks like whatever was running on there was a set of SNES roms which if these FPGA cores do work can work on the system. I am still waiting to see them explain this demo unit fully and release technical details about the console. My money is extremely limited and while I am interested in the console I am cautious about whether or not I would invest in this. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_ocelot Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 That was me! I am trying to really grasp what's going on here with them so I have been poking around. Everything I have been reading including responses from them point to the fact that indeed there is an SNES or something in that shell. I am not fully sure yet about that though. It looks like whatever was running on there was a set of SNES roms which if these FPGA cores do work can work on the system. I am still waiting to see them explain this demo unit fully and release technical details about the console. My money is extremely limited and while I am interested in the console I am cautious about whether or not I would invest in this. If funds are limited I think the best bang for the buck is a Raspberry Pi or RPi2 with RetroPie. Beats risking your money on a (likely) vapourware console. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheClassyGamer Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 That was me! I am trying to really grasp what's going on here with them so I have been poking around. Everything I have been reading including responses from them point to the fact that indeed there is an SNES or something in that shell. I am not fully sure yet about that though. It looks like whatever was running on there was a set of SNES roms which if these FPGA cores do work can work on the system. I am still waiting to see them explain this demo unit fully and release technical details about the console. My money is extremely limited and while I am interested in the console I am cautious about whether or not I would invest in this. I wouldn't want to tell you how to spend your cash. I will say though that ever game we've seen shown that is said to be played or going to be playable on the Shameleon is something you can pretty much already play some other way for a lot less cash. For what this thing costs one could buy quite a bit of classic hardware and still be able to play this stuff. As it stands now I don't know of any reason to buy such a system as the scameleon, other than just an attempt to consolidate and have new hardware, if there actually were new hardware in it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKMike Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 We need a Mike Kennedy sound board.I have one. We use it on the podcast. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 @prince_david that is untrue. Our software was running the games. We will prove a lot more on the Kickstarter page. They're really hyping the big reveal on Kickstarter, aren't they? (Of course, they were doing the same thing leading up to Toy Fair, and we all know how well that went over, but we're supposed to "stop living in the past" and forget all about that now, so never mind.) It's so odd that, after days and days of being raked over the coals over their fake "prototype" BS, they would wait until Kickstarter to present the first shred of evidence—or "proof", as Mike keeps on saying—that the "prototype" was not, in fact, an SNES Jr. board stuffed into a Jaguar shell and wrapped in tape. First of all, I can't think of any reason why they should need to wait until the Kickstarter launch: if they have evidence, and if it's soooo persuasive that we'll all have "nothing left to speculate about" after they show it, why not stop all the bad press and show it now? Second, is Kickstarter really the place where they should want to address those allegations? By doing so during their fundraising campaign, they're extending the conversation about the troubled history of the project into their pitch to potential backers. That's the place where they should want to put their best face forward and highlight the positives, not come right out of the gate fighting off allegations of dishonesty. What are they going to say? "Welcome, backers, and please consider supporting our project! You know, there has been a lot of negativity about the project, and even allegations by haters on the Internet that we faked our prototype at Toy Fair, but now that we're here on Kickstarter, here's our ironclad evidence that it was real!" It won't persuade anybody, and will only serve to make their potential backers more aware of the allegations, if they weren't aware of them already. How will that persuade anybody to give them money? I suspect that waiting for Kickstarter is yet another stalling tactic, and that they're in the process of frantically mocking up another fake "prototype" right this minute. If I had to guess, I'd say that they're making something that deliberately incorporates features of the original SNES Jr. board (at least those features that were plainly visible at Toy Fair), whether it makes technical sense to do so or not, so that when they reveal it, they can claim that this was the board that we all saw at Toy Fair. "You know all those pictures claiming that our prototype was only an SNES in a Jag shell? Well, it may have looked that way when it was inside the shell, but now you can see the whole thing, and it's clear that it isn't! This has all been a misunderstanding!" 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_convoy Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 That was me! I am trying to really grasp what's going on here with them so I have been poking around. Everything I have been reading including responses from them point to the fact that indeed there is an SNES or something in that shell. I am not fully sure yet about that though. It looks like whatever was running on there was a set of SNES roms which if these FPGA cores do work can work on the system. I am still waiting to see them explain this demo unit fully and release technical details about the console. My money is extremely limited and while I am interested in the console I am cautious about whether or not I would invest in this. I think being cautious in regards to any venture like this is always a good idea. Always strive to be an informed consumer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 My money is extremely limited and while I am interested in the console I am cautious about whether or not I would invest in this. That caution is certainly warranted. I won't tell you how to spend your money, either ... but I can tell you that, if you do a bit of research, you'll find many other ways of getting everything that the Coleco Chameleon is promising to give you and more, ways which will be cheaper for you and which will give you more for your money rather than less. Do you want the experience of playing real cartridges on real hardware? You can get an authentic SNES or Genesis at reasonable prices and with a good collection of games and accessories right now, not from shady sellers on eBay, but from reputable vendors like Stone Age Gamer and 4Jays. You can also buy brand new clone consoles from companies like Gamerz Tek, which are reportedly quite good and very inexpensive. Do you want the cartridge experience but don't want lots of consoles cluttering your home? Get a RetroN 5 or a Super Retro Trio and play your original cartridge games on that! Do you want an original console but not piles of cartridges? Look into an Everdrive multicart for your favorite system! Do you want to enjoy classic games without any original consoles or cartridges? Emulation is your answer, and there are so many ways to enjoy it on any device you have that I can't even begin to list them all here. Do you want to "support the little guy" and invest in homebrews or indie games? Few (if any!) of the games for the Coleco Chameleon will be exclusive to that system, so you'd be better off enjoying those games on their native platforms, since this will also give you access to all the other games those platforms have to offer. Again, the Coleco Chameleon is a solution with no known problem, and the troubled history of the project (which you can read about in detail here on AtariAge or in articles like this one), and all the ongoing allegations of dishonesty, only add insult to injury. The Coleco Chameleon is a gamble, and a risky one at that. Every one of the alternatives I mentioned is a sure thing, and they're all available now. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_ocelot Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) They're really hyping the big reveal on Kickstarter, aren't they? (Of course, they were doing the same thing leading up to Toy Fair, and we all know how well that went over, but we're supposed to "stop living in the past" and forget all about that now, so never mind.) It's so odd that, after days and days of being raked over the coals over their fake "prototype" BS, they would wait until Kickstarter to present the first shred of evidence—or "proof", as Mike keeps on saying—that the "prototype" was not, in fact, an SNES Jr. board stuffed into a Jaguar shell and wrapped in tape. First of all, I can't think of any reason why they should need to wait until the Kickstarter launch: if they have evidence, and if it's soooo persuasive that we'll all have "nothing left to speculate about" after they show it, why not stop all the bad press and show it now? Second, is Kickstarter really the place where they should want to address those allegations? By doing so during their fundraising campaign, they're extending the conversation about the troubled history of the project into their pitch to potential backers. That's the place where they should want to put their best face forward and highlight the positives, not come right out of the gate fighting off allegations of dishonesty. What are they going to say? "Welcome, backers, and please consider supporting our project! You know, there has been a lot of negativity about the project, and even allegations by haters on the Internet that we faked our prototype at Toy Fair, but now that we're here on Kickstarter, here's our ironclad evidence that it was real!" It won't persuade anybody, and will only serve to make their potential backers more aware of the allegations, if they weren't aware of them already. How will that persuade anybody to give them money? I suspect that waiting for Kickstarter is yet another stalling tactic, and that they're in the process of frantically mocking up another fake "prototype" right this minute. If I had to guess, I'd say that they're making something that deliberately incorporates features of the original SNES Jr. board (at least those features that were plainly visible at Toy Fair), whether it makes technical sense to do so or not, so that when they reveal it, they can claim that this was the board that we all saw at Toy Fair. "You know all those pictures claiming that our prototype was only an SNES in a Jag shell? Well, it may have looked that way when it was inside the shell, but now you can see the whole thing, and it's clear that it isn't! This has all been a misunderstanding!" So much energy, effort, and internet bandwidth devoted to maintaining the illusion that buckling down and making an actual prototype would have been the easier option. Reminds me of the people in school who made elaborate cheat sheets for tests instead of studying. Why the rush to have something for Toy Fair? If Mike took another six months to a year and presented something substantive at another trade show or the 2017 Toy Fair would we likely would have understood and accepted the time delay. It reeks of financial desperation that they showed their hand early -- desperate to hobnob and ink some deals so people can get paid or get creditors off their backs. I weep for anyone on that team who left a paying job on Mike's word they'd be swimming in cash and cars. When this fiasco is over and the entire gaming community is picking the pieces of shrapnel out of their shins would YOU cite working on the Hot Potato (err... Coleco Chameleon) on your resume? Edited February 23, 2016 by rob_ocelot 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 If only a company was making translucent Jaguar shells so that the Chameleon electronics could be seen but not disturbed ... 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted February 23, 2016 Author Share Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) Interestingly enough if they only had played another system game at the fair (the CV games or the INTV games or even VCS games) that alone could have been evidence of "not only a SNES mini" ... I don't even ask for the Genesis "core" as Mike said they didn't have that core yet (whatever). [sure for a proto of a "chameleon" system showing more than one compat type would be a good thing, right? Doesn't even require showing the board .... you know to protect the trade secret of what awesome chips you bought out of all the off-the-shelf ones available] Edited February 23, 2016 by phoenixdownita 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triverse Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) I looked over the original RVGS campaign posting, and I couldn't find any features that are not also in the current system. In fact, I didn't see any mention of the RVGS playing old games from their original cartridges - I got the impression that it would only play its own custom format of cartridge. The idea of playing old cartridges through add-on adapters seems to be a new Coleco Chameleon feature... I guess we'll just have to wait until Friday to compare the campaigns and see what the differences are. Pretty impressive if they can now build the same level of system for a fraction of the development cost and price... They mentioned the cart adapters in my interview with them when the IGG campaign was going on. http://retrogamingmagazine.com/2015/09/27/rgm-interview-with-retro-vgs-team-unofficial-copy-from-audio-interview/ Working on the other edits to the recent article and will have it finished soon. Added information on the lack of HDMI in the prototype but lack of support for anything but HDMI in the Kickstarter reward tiers tying those two articles together. Edited February 23, 2016 by triverse 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 It's all so ass-backwards. Coleco Chameleon: 1. Choose case design, marketing team, branding, logo 2. Issue press release with bold claims about what you intend to do 3. Show a "sizzle reel" video of games you want to run 4. Show an incomplete "prototype" that runs different games than what you showed 5. Tell people what it's going to cost in advance 6. Ask for money via a crowdfunding site 7. Answer questions 8. Build prototype 9. (if you get around to it) Listen to community and align your product with actual wants Wouldn't it be "nice" if they did most of this in an order that makes sense? 1. Listen to community and align your product with actual wants 2. Build prototype 3. Answer questions and adjust your plan based on feedback received 4. Ask for money via a crowdfunding site 5. Tell people what it's going to cost, show a "sizzle reel" video of games you want to run, issue press release that shows what you have already done 6. Choose case design, marketing team, branding, logo I know they think they've done all this already, but to those of us on the outside, the evidence isn't there. It looks like they did their homework on the bus. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoofu Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 So far it sounds like a Action Gamemaster, which promised compatibility with NES, SNES, Genesis and CD-ROMgames via separately sold adapters "Despite the CES announcement, it appears little to no work was actually done on the Action Gamemaster by the time Active ceased its video game operations in 1994. It is generally believed that the system, had it been realized, would have proven far too bulky and expensive to be practical (a projected retail price of around $500 USD was being suggested at the time)." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RupanIII Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Well, a sure bet exists on the market. I have one of these. Plays Turbo Grafx 16 and PC Engine classics and much slicker than the Retron 5. Loads games into storage http://www.play-asia.com/retro-freak-premium/13/708vvv That was me! I am trying to really grasp what's going on here with them so I have been poking around. Everything I have been reading including responses from them point to the fact that indeed there is an SNES or something in that shell. I am not fully sure yet about that though. It looks like whatever was running on there was a set of SNES roms which if these FPGA cores do work can work on the system. I am still waiting to see them explain this demo unit fully and release technical details about the console. My money is extremely limited and while I am interested in the console I am cautious about whether or not I would invest in this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+nanochess Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Hey guys, you write faster than I can read 27 PAGES IN ONLY 5 DAYS! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 So far it sounds like a Action Gamemaster, which promised compatibility with NES, SNES, Genesis and CD-ROMgames via separately sold adapters "Despite the CES announcement, it appears little to no work was actually done on the Action Gamemaster by the time Active ceased its video game operations in 1994. It is generally believed that the system, had it been realized, would have proven far too bulky and expensive to be practical (a projected retail price of around $500 USD was being suggested at the time)." OMG, it sounds a LOT like that. Mike's communication style is retro, too. I wonder if he thinks we still get the "gaming gossip goodies" from things like Quartermann? Random column attached. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBall Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I also think the "why composite video?" issue should be addressed. Why take the digitial signals generated on the FPGA board and convert them to interlaced analog composite when you natively have RGB ? Just so you can reuse a cheapo SNES cable and connector? On top of that, they lug a composite tube monitor from Cali to New York as a display when a DVI to HDMI adaptor and a much lighter LCD TV would have sufficed. Composite is (relatively) easy and cheap. You can generate NTSC output with little more than a microcontroller and a resistor DAC for an output stage. HDMI OTOH is more difficult requiring dedicated silicon and licensing fees. However, VGA is just as cheap and easy as composite video and would be a logical intermediate step for HDMI. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retro Nick Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Composite is (relatively) easy and cheap. You can generate NTSC output with little more than a microcontroller and a resistor DAC for an output stage. HDMI OTOH is more difficult requiring dedicated silicon and licensing fees. However, VGA is just as cheap and easy as composite video and would be a logical intermediate step for HDMI. ...except we were told that it would be HDMI only before the toy fair... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 ...except we were told that it would be HDMI only before the toy fair... ... and if their hardware already supports HDMI, then using composite out would only involve adding more components to produce a poorer-quality image, not to mention lugging a CRT TV across the country instead of using a lightweight LCD TV that they could have bought locally. On top of that, they supposedly chose to use a Nintendo cable that plugs into a proprietary connector, one which probably can't even be bought in bulk anymore, instead of the common-as-dirt RCA connectors and cables that everybody else uses. So why was this "easier for the show" again??? (Of course, we all know there's a much more plausible explanation: they're lying. They used an SNES board in their Jag shell, and since it only supports composite output through Nintendo's weird cable, that's what they "decided" to use for the show.) 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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