ceratophyllum Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 (edited) I saw recently that Turbo Forth and Cortex Basic had been updated, and that now there is an archive of BIN files forming here, so I finally decided I have to learn how to do this EPROMMing stuff. I don't understand how one knows how the BIN image has to be, um, massaged for certain chips. I bought Turbo Forth 1.1 over a year ago from Code, Hack, Create. It is on a 64KB, 28 pin NM27C512Q chip that is on what I think is called a "Guidry board." I copied the contents of the chip with my TL866CS and discovered a 64KB file with this layout: 16KB TurboForth 32KB FFFFFFFF...... 16KB TurboForth From the TurboForth site, I downloaded the new 16KB turboforth.eprom v2.2. So to prepare the new image I need replace the first and last 16KB with the new turboforth.eprom? I can't test because I'm waiting on a UV lamp (leaving the chip under one of those cute little LED UV flashlights--so handy for making antique shop uranium glass glow-- for an hour failed to erase one single bit!) so I thought I would try to understand what is going on here. Is there no way to make more efficient use of the 64KB? I'm imagining something like the 64NIC+ cartridge for the C64 which can have a rotary switch to select with. (64NIC is first and foremost a network card; the switch and EPROM are optional add-ons and I have not seen any detailed how-to documentation or examples from people who have actually set it up.) Are there other chips will work in this board? I notice there are 27C___ EPROMs in 16KB, 32KB sizes around. I am guessing they would not, because you cannot have your data lie across multiple banks? e.g. 27C256 comes in units, chunks, banks(?) of 4KB so it could not be used? Are there any EEPROM chips that can work? (Not needing the UV lamp would be nice.) Edited April 2, 2016 by ceratophyllum 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 Look at the top right end of the card in your picture. There you will see the necessary jumper settings for using it with 8K, 16K, 32K and 64K EPROM chips. If you are using a 16K chip, just burn the new image straight to that chip (no massaging necessary) and set the jumpers appropriately. You'll be good to go. It is also possible to build larger chips with multiple cartridges in them, but it only makes real sense for the larger versions of the board (128K Guidry boards, 512K Red boards, or 2048K Yellow boards). You can also use the Blue UberGROM boards for 512K images. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+5-11under Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 I'm not familiar with your specific application, but the Winbond W27C512 and W27C020 chips are electrically eraseable via the TL866CS, and the pinouts are the same as for standard EPROMs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atrax27407 Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 If you are using the files from the TurboForth site, The two must be inverted since the Guidry card uses a 74LS279 (i.e., burn the second one followed by the first one). I have no idea why a 27C512 was used for your original. .You can use any EEPROM that is equivalent to a 27128. I can burn you a replacement EPROM (not EEPROM) for $6 US shipped, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceratophyllum Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 If you are using the files from the TurboForth site, The two must be inverted since the Guidry card uses a 74LS279 (i.e., burn the second one followed by the first one). I have no idea why a 27C512 was used for your original. .You can use any EEPROM that is equivalent to a 27128. I can burn you a replacement EPROM (not EEPROM) for $6 US shipped, What "files?" The TurboForth 2.2 zip file contains a folder called EPROM containing only one 16KB file. Perhaps the 2 8KB files are already inverted and then cat(1)ted together since the instructions say: The software is 16K in size, and designed to be burned into a 27©128 EPROM. The cartridge board which hosts the EPROM is known as Guidry Board. .... .... The zip file contains a single file: turboforth.eprom. Just burn this file using your EPROM programmer into the 27C128, put in the board, plug in and switch on! I guess the guy who burnt it probably was familiar with or just had lots of 27C512.... The start of my 64KB dump looks like this: 00000000 AA 01 00 00 00 00 60 0A 00 00 00 00 60 36 0F 54 ......`.....`6.T 00000010 55 52 42 4F 46 4F 52 54 48 20 56 31 2E 31 20 28 URBOFORTH V1.1 ( 00000020 63 29 20 4D 61 72 6B 20 57 69 6C 6C 73 20 32 30 c) Mark Wills 20 00000030 31 31 60 02 60 00 03 00 00 00 02 E0 83 00 02 00 11`.`........... 00000040 83 36 02 01 60 52 02 02 00 0A CC 31 06 42 16 FD .6..`R.....1.B.. 00000050 10 05 C3 CB C2 DB 04 E0 60 00 04 5B 06 A0 83 36 ........`..[...6 00000060 7C A6 C8 20 83 C0 A0 1C 02 0C 83 28 04 5C 83 20 |.. .......(.\. 00000070 70 9E 00 00 83 2E 83 20 70 9E 00 01 83 2E 83 20 p...... p...... 00000080 70 9E 00 08 83 2E 83 20 60 8E 6C E6 83 2E 60 90 p...... `.l...`. 00000090 C0 55 C0 A1 00 02 05 C4 CD 11 C5 02 05 D5 05 D5 .U.............. 000000A0 04 5C 60 A4 83 20 60 DE 61 4A 70 9E 00 00 79 54 .\`.. `.aJp...yT 000000B0 60 86 60 0F 00 23 6E C2 6E C2 60 86 60 D8 00 05 `.`..#n.n.`.`... 000000C0 6E C2 6E 6E 60 E6 66 58 00 0E 60 76 7C 20 60 6E n.nn`.fX..`v| `n 000000D0 70 9E A0 5A 69 08 74 AE 52 65 61 64 79 20 60 E0 p..Zi.t.Ready `. 000000E0 06 A0 83 36 67 48 60 E8 06 A0 83 36 7F 98 00 00 ...6gH`....6.... 000000F0 60 EE 00 04 45 58 49 54 60 FA 04 60 83 30 60 F0 `...EXIT`..`.0`. 00000100 00 04 51 55 49 54 83 20 70 9E 05 00 70 9E A0 16 ..QUIT. p...p... The end of the first 16KB looks like: 00003F50 20 00 7F 5A 7F 8C 17 6C 00 50 02 00 7F 50 02 01 ..Z...l.P...P.. 00003F60 20 0E CC 70 CC 70 CC 70 CC 70 CC 70 C8 1B 83 E8 ..p.p.p.p.p.... 00003F70 C8 3E 83 EC C8 09 20 0E 02 E0 83 E0 06 94 C9 20 .>.... ........ 00003F80 7F 56 83 02 05 E0 83 73 04 60 00 60 C1 20 16 6C .V.....s.`.`. .l 00003F90 06 94 02 E0 20 00 03 80 C0 14 02 80 00 0D 16 02 .... ........... 00003FA0 04 D4 10 07 02 80 FF FF 16 01 10 03 0A 80 D8 00 ................ 00003FB0 A1 75 04 60 83 40 05 C5 C5 43 05 C6 C0 C6 C1 B3 .u.`.@...C...... 00003FC0 C1 D6 04 57 83 30 C0 D5 06 45 04 5C C2 DB 04 E0 ...W.0...E.\.... 00003FD0 60 00 04 5B 10 00 04 E0 60 02 04 5C 10 00 D8 20 `..[....`..\... 00003FE0 90 00 83 52 0B C0 04 5B 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 ...R...[........ 00003FF0 04 E0 60 00 04 60 60 5A C0 20 A0 54 04 D0 04 5A ..`..``Z. .T...Z 00004000 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 00004010 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 00004020 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 00004030 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 00004040 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 00004050 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ Then all FFFF until the same 16KB of data repeats at 0xC000: 0000BF50 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 0000BF60 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 0000BF70 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 0000BF80 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 0000BF90 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 0000BFA0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 0000BFB0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 0000BFC0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 0000BFD0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 0000BFE0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 0000BFF0 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF ................ 0000C000 AA 01 00 00 00 00 60 0A 00 00 00 00 60 36 0F 54 ......`.....`6.T 0000C010 55 52 42 4F 46 4F 52 54 48 20 56 31 2E 31 20 28 URBOFORTH V1.1 ( 0000C020 63 29 20 4D 61 72 6B 20 57 69 6C 6C 73 20 32 30 c) Mark Wills 20 0000C030 31 31 60 02 60 00 03 00 00 00 02 E0 83 00 02 00 11`.`........... 0000C040 83 36 02 01 60 52 02 02 00 0A CC 31 06 42 16 FD .6..`R.....1.B.. 0000C050 10 05 C3 CB C2 DB 04 E0 60 00 04 5B 06 A0 83 36 ........`..[...6 0000C060 7C A6 C8 20 83 C0 A0 1C 02 0C 83 28 04 5C 83 20 |.. .......(.\. 0000C070 70 9E 00 00 83 2E 83 20 70 9E 00 01 83 2E 83 20 p...... p...... 0000C080 70 9E 00 08 83 2E 83 20 60 8E 6C E6 83 2E 60 90 p...... `.l...`. 0000C090 C0 55 C0 A1 00 02 05 C4 CD 11 C5 02 05 D5 05 D5 .U.............. 0000C0A0 04 5C 60 A4 83 20 60 DE 61 4A 70 9E 00 00 79 54 .\`.. `.aJp...yT 0000C0B0 60 86 60 0F 00 23 6E C2 6E C2 60 86 60 D8 00 05 `.`..#n.n.`.`... 0000C0C0 6E C2 6E 6E 60 E6 66 58 00 0E 60 76 7C 20 60 6E n.nn`.fX..`v| `n 0000C0D0 70 9E A0 5A 69 08 74 AE 52 65 61 64 79 20 60 E0 p..Zi.t.Ready `. 0000C0E0 06 A0 83 36 67 48 60 E8 06 A0 83 36 7F 98 00 00 ...6gH`....6.... 0000C0F0 60 EE 00 04 45 58 49 54 60 FA 04 60 83 30 60 F0 `...EXIT`..`.0`. 0000C100 00 04 51 55 49 54 83 20 70 9E 05 00 70 9E A0 16 ..QUIT. p...p... End of file: 0000FE50 19 28 1A 50 7F 50 7F DE 30 20 2C 20 28 20 24 20 .(.P.P..0 , ( $ 0000FE60 20 20 1C 20 0B 44 53 4B 31 2E 42 4C 4F 43 4B 53 . .DSK1.BLOCKS 0000FE70 00 00 38 08 78 48 7C 00 40 40 78 44 44 44 78 00 ..8.xH|.@@xDDDx. 0000FE80 00 00 38 44 40 40 3C 00 04 04 3C 44 44 44 3C 00 ..8D@@<...<DDD<. 0000FE90 00 00 38 44 7C 40 3C 00 1C 20 78 20 20 20 20 00 ..8D|@<.. x . 0000FEA0 00 00 3C 44 44 3C 04 38 40 40 78 44 44 44 44 00 ..<DD<.8@@xDDDD. 0000FEB0 10 00 30 10 10 10 38 00 08 00 18 08 08 08 48 30 ..0...8.......H0 0000FEC0 20 20 24 28 30 28 24 00 30 10 10 10 10 10 38 00 $(0($.0.....8. 0000FED0 00 00 78 54 54 54 54 00 00 00 78 44 44 44 44 00 ..xTTTT...xDDDD. 0000FEE0 00 00 38 44 44 44 38 00 00 00 78 44 44 78 40 40 ..8DDD8...xDDx@@ 0000FEF0 00 00 3C 44 44 3C 04 04 00 00 5C 60 40 40 40 00 ..<DD<....\`@@@. 0000FF00 00 00 3C 40 38 04 78 00 00 20 78 20 20 24 18 00 ..<@8.x.. x $.. 0000FF10 00 00 44 44 44 44 3C 00 00 00 44 44 28 28 10 00 ..DDDD<...DD((.. 0000FF20 00 00 44 44 54 54 28 00 00 00 44 28 10 28 44 00 ..DDTT(...D(.(D. 0000FF30 00 00 44 24 18 08 10 20 00 00 7C 08 10 20 7C 00 ..D$... ..|.. |. 0000FF40 00 E0 40 5C 50 18 10 00 FE FE FE FE FE FE FE 00 ..@\P........... 0000FF50 20 00 7F 5A 7F 8C 17 6C 00 50 02 00 7F 50 02 01 ..Z...l.P...P.. 0000FF60 20 0E CC 70 CC 70 CC 70 CC 70 CC 70 C8 1B 83 E8 ..p.p.p.p.p.... 0000FF70 C8 3E 83 EC C8 09 20 0E 02 E0 83 E0 06 94 C9 20 .>.... ........ 0000FF80 7F 56 83 02 05 E0 83 73 04 60 00 60 C1 20 16 6C .V.....s.`.`. .l 0000FF90 06 94 02 E0 20 00 03 80 C0 14 02 80 00 0D 16 02 .... ........... 0000FFA0 04 D4 10 07 02 80 FF FF 16 01 10 03 0A 80 D8 00 ................ 0000FFB0 A1 75 04 60 83 40 05 C5 C5 43 05 C6 C0 C6 C1 B3 .u.`.@...C...... 0000FFC0 C1 D6 04 57 83 30 C0 D5 06 45 04 5C C2 DB 04 E0 ...W.0...E.\.... 0000FFD0 60 00 04 5B 10 00 04 E0 60 02 04 5C 10 00 D8 20 `..[....`..\... 0000FFE0 90 00 83 52 0B C0 04 5B 10 00 10 00 10 00 10 00 ...R...[........ 0000FFF0 04 E0 60 00 04 60 60 5A C0 20 A0 54 04 D0 04 5A ..`..``Z. .T...Z 00010000 --- oldforth.bin --0x10000/0x10000-------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckoba Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Your suspicion is correct, the new firmware is concatenated. Chop them into 8k chunks, invert them, and you should be good to go. The guy that burned it was probably prepping images that worked with both the 378 and 379, hence the duplication. It's a long story. Be aware that the BLOCKS file in the 1.2.2 release is corrupted. Willsy hasn't gotten around to fixing it; there's a working version at http://atariage.com/forums/topic/242190-general-turbo-forth-questions/page-4?do=findComment&comment=3435338 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atrax27407 Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Here is the inverted, concatenated and ready to burn. turbo1_2_2.bin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceratophyllum Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 (edited) This is exactly the same file as in the Turbo Forth zip called turboforth.eprom. ~/Downloads/minipro-master$ diff turbo1_2_2.bin turboforth.eprom ~/Downloads/minipro-master$ No output from diff means the binary files match. Edited April 3, 2016 by ceratophyllum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FarmerPotato Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Thanks for summing this up, Atrax. I'm preparing to run TI demos at Midwest Gaming Classic this weekend and I wanted to try out one of the newer FORTH options. I have the 16k carts to use. I planned on running the original TI FORTH graphics demo and FORTI music. Is there a good free-running demo in Turbo Forth (or changing topic, fbForth)? TI FORTH was my second language, after TI BASIC, and I've always had a liking for it. (I even got to do Postscript programming in one job.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atrax27407 Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 TurboForth is a new, written-from-scratch application from Mark Wills. There are several graphics (and other) demos on the BLOCKS file. FbForth is a highly modified and improved version of TI Forth from Lee Stewart. I'm not familiar enough with the FBLOCKS file to know if there are graphics (and other) demos contained therein. Maybe Lee will chime in at this point. FbForth needs a 32K EPROM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Lee Stewart Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 Here is @Willsy's demo of Conway's Game of Life for his TurboForth. I have a port of it for fbForth that I will post later today. It isn't a very glitzy demo, but it does run until you stop it. ...lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted April 5, 2016 Share Posted April 5, 2016 @FarmerPotato, you mentioned using some FORTI music as one of your demos. I take it you have a FORTI Card? If so, you are one of a very few of us with that peripheral. It is nice to see that another one is still out there. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Lee Stewart Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 OK...here is the promised fbForth version of the Game of Life: fbLIFE.zip You can open the FBF file inside the ZIP file in a text editor, select all of it and paste it into fbForth 2.0 in Classic99 from the “Edit” menu. You can change the definition of DEMO by replacing GLIDER with one of the other patterns above DEMO . ...lee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FarmerPotato Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 @FarmerPotato, you mentioned using some FORTI music as one of your demos. I take it you have a FORTI Card? If so, you are one of a very few of us with that peripheral. It is nice to see that another one is still out there. . . Alas, I don't have a FORTI card, just the software. You are lucky! After the TI FORTH demo with Bach's "Little" Fugue in G Minor made the rounds in 1984, we had some FORTI demos at the Lubbock Users Group. I'm not sure there was an actual FORTI card there, but we shared copies of the 12-voice songs like Chariots of Fire that sounded pretty awful on the basic 4A. Since the FORTI docs turned up in whtech, I have imagined re-creating a card. Over the years I have wire-wrapped or breadboarded the 9919 into anything it will fit, just for the heck of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted April 6, 2016 Share Posted April 6, 2016 (edited) I have new Prototyping boards available if you really want to build a FORTI card. . . Edited April 6, 2016 by Ksarul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc.hull Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 I have new Prototyping boards available if you really want to build a FORTI card. . . You dont happen to have schematics do you Jim? The ones on WHT are a bit week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 Let me check my set and see if they are better than the ones on WHT (once I find them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceratophyllum Posted April 7, 2016 Author Share Posted April 7, 2016 Got my Chinese EPROM eraser today. It took 15 to 30 mins. (First time I tried 15mins and it was all still there when I read the chip back with minipro. 30 minutes wiped it.) I don't really understand why the data is arranged in this funny way, but whatever: putting the Turbo Forth 1.2 "turboforth.eprom" file in the first and last 16KB, with 32KB of FF in between works in my real TI. ./minipro -p "NM27C512 @DIP28" -w forth12_40and80col_64K.bin Found Minipro TL866CS v3.63.2 Chip ID OK: 0x8f85 Writing Code... OK Reading Code... OK Verification OK My first working EPROM. In case anybody else has this particular board+EPROM and wants to upgrade, attached is the turboforth 1.2 image, padded for 64K v03c Guidry board with NM27C512 EPROM. Be aware that the BLOCKS file in the 1.2.2 release is corrupted. Willsy hasn't gotten around to fixing it; there's a working version at http://atariage.com/...-4#entry3435338 I was just using my old BLOCKS disk. I didn't notice there was a new one. I'll wait until the official one comes out; I'm still trying to get my head around Forth...it is so strange. forth12_40and80col_64K.bin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Lee Stewart Posted April 7, 2016 Share Posted April 7, 2016 ... I was just using my old BLOCKS disk. I didn't notice there was a new one. I'll wait until the official one comes out; I'm still trying to get my head around Forth...it is so strange. Also, try burning my fbForth 2.0. It is 32KiB, so you would need to double it for a 64KiB EPROM: fbForth—TI Forth with File-based Block I/O ...lee 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towmater Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Got my Chinese EPROM eraser today. It took 15 to 30 mins. (First time I tried 15mins and it was all still there when I read the chip back with minipro. 30 minutes wiped it.) 'tis weird, because my $15 ebay Chinese eraser works in five minutes, so well that I'm afraid I'm cooking the chips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 I just found a nice crisp FORTI schematic for the Willforth Protoboard, which should convert to mine nicely. I'll try and get it scanned in sometime this week. . . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc.hull Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Good news. The wht copy looks like a photo of a xerox of a mimeo. Thx Jim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Here's the FORTI Schematic, along with a schematic to move the Speech Synthesizer to the PEB. Both of these were done for the Willforth Protoboard, but should be relatively easy to adapt to my newer one, as all of the signals are brought up through to a set of tie points above the bus isolation chips. The Speech board will be a little more difficult, as I didn't bring the -16V off of pin 57. That will require a minor bit of creative thinking to change (easiest would be a wire jumper from pin 57 to the voltage regulator normally uses for +12V--after cutting the trace to pin 60). FORTI (WillfordAppendixC).pdf SpeechInPEB (WillforthAppendixD).pdf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc.hull Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Jim... That's like stepping out of a dim basement into the bright sunlight. Perfect and thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mizapf Posted April 14, 2016 Share Posted April 14, 2016 Here's the FORTI Schematic, along with a schematic to move the Speech Synthesizer to the PEB Cool ... this somewhat feels like a new card will show up in MESS soon. And it is obviously not too difficult to build. Do we have some software for the FORTi? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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