Mock Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 How do you guys feel about a Rarity 7 box compared to a Rarity 7 game? Probably more games than boxes, since many got trashed...so would a box be more rare than a cart? Should they be split into different cataglories? Does the Rarity guide reflect an overall level of rarity considering this or is it just based on complete in box or is it just the cart? Is a Crazy Climber box more rare than a Crazy Climber cart? probably...so would the box be an 8 or a 10? I've been pondering this for a while now...lol....just thought it might be fun to re-hash the subject some and get fresh thoughts on the matter. Thanks, Mock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 How do you guys feel about a Rarity 7 box compared to a Rarity 7 game? Probably more games than boxes, since many got trashed...so would a box be more rare than a cart? Should they be split into different cataglories? Does the Rarity guide reflect an overall level of rarity considering this or is it just based on complete in box or is it just the cart? Is a Crazy Climber box more rare than a Crazy Climber cart? probably...so would the box be an 8 or a 10? I've been pondering this for a while now...lol....just thought it might be fun to re-hash the subject some and get fresh thoughts on the matter. Thanks, Mock Most excellent question. IMHO the box to something >=7 is worth more than the cart if it has the instructions as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sku_u Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Overlays, posters, contest entries, inserts, game pieces, etc...should also factor in if applicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Overlays, posters, contest entries, inserts, game pieces, etc...should also factor in if applicable. Definately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaManFan Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I think the general rule of thumb is that a boxed complete game is worth a minimum of double (for lower rarities) to a maximum of almost ten times as much (maybe more for rarity 10's) so you can judge by that how much more rare they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I think the general rule of thumb is that a boxed complete game is worth a minimum of double (for lower rarities) to a maximum of almost ten times as much (maybe more for rarity 10's) so you can judge by that how much more rare they are. However, by that logic a loose Video Life would be worth $250.00 to $300.00 dollars. Air Raid on the other hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Air Raid would have to be the most valuable of all boxes. Legend has it the box does exist, yet pictures of it have never been made public, and no one has seen the box -- not even its owner -- in almost a decade. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Air Raid would have to be the most valuable of all boxes. Legend has it the box does exist, yet pictures of it have never been made public, and no one has seen the box -- not even its owner -- in almost a decade. Can you explain this? This does indeed sound like an interesting story. My personal thoughts on rarity rating was for cart complete with box and manual etc. Unless box never existed for that cart. i.e. The rarity rating is for the game as it was originally sold. But I could be wrong.... I normally am, just ask her indoors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 After a much research digging through Deja News (the database is now owned by Google Groups), I found a collector named Terry L. Rutt who claimed to have found a boxed copy of Air Raid. I found his email address and we corresponded several times over a period of about two years. In the course of those conversations, Terry informed me that he had found his boxed copy of Air Raid in a thrift store in California, either in 1992 or 1993 (he couldn't recall the year for sure). He also told me that Air Raid was not known to exist prior to his find, that his was the first. He had Randy Crieghfield dump the ROM for him, and that is the reason why the ROM has existed for so long in Atari 2600 cartridge ROM libraries. The reason Terry knew that the game was called Air Raid is because the name of the game is printed on the box. Had he not found the game's original box, the world would still never know the title of the game. As far as I know, his is the only boxed copy known to exist. Terry also told me that he "believes to recall that the printed matter on the box states that Men-A-Vision was a company based in California." I tried for nearly 2 years to get him to send me a scan of his Air Raid box. But Terry had long ago dropped off the map as an active collector. He is a big shot now with Compaq Computers and makes way too much money to be concerned with searching all of his houses and all of his storage units to locate and scan the game box for me. He told me he'd scan it for me when he found it, but he never did. I lost contact with Terry over a year ago. His old email address is no longer valid. I have every reason to believe that Terry's story is true, that he indeed owns the only known box for Air Raid, somewhere. Whether his box is damaged, misplaced, stolen or lost forever, we'll just never know untless it turns up again. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mock Posted April 30, 2003 Author Share Posted April 30, 2003 Reason i asked is that I just picked up a Xenophobe box...the game is a rarity 7, but i have not been able to find a box until this one...I have seen a few of the games though...it got me to thinking....perhaps a x3 factor or something of that nature is in order for the boxes, but I don't know if even that does true justice to the value...these boxes in good shape are getting harder to come by with each year that passes and the carts are built like a tank...can't harldy destroy them...I saw an atricle once in a mag where they did all this crazy stuff to an atari cart and it still played...it was frozen, boiled, ran over...all kinds of stuff...case at some point was gone but the game still played on....lol. That gatefold box set is not easy to come by either...been working on mine for a year now and only have 6 of the 9. Mock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 Mock, It seems to me you've pretty much got it figured out. Boxes are rarer, and they will continue to get rarer faster than their cartridge counterparts due to their more fragile nature. As for "true value," AtariAge has never been overly concerned with creating a price guide. The magazine article to which you refer is truly a classic. A copy of it resides right here on the AtariAge website. A must read for anyone who collects videogame cartridges! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbrad Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 I could swear I saw that article somewhere with pictures originally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted April 30, 2003 Share Posted April 30, 2003 If you happen to come across the article with pictures again, please post scans. I'd love to see those pictures! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mock Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 This whole rarity - price guide thing really needs to happen and it's not something that can be done on one level...it's a multi-level thing. It would require a lot of manpower and maybe there are enough people here who can pull it off as true fans of the games. Concern not being placed on value vs. rarity is a noble thought to have, however it is a moot point - the two are forever linked in a direct proportion with each other...no doubts about it. It would be nice to see something that addresses a few things: 1: Black Cart Labels - like the Coleco's - they are near ipossible to find in good shape with no white showing through. 2: The box issue as stated before in the above posts 3: The Gatefolds - here we have two sub cataglories: (1) Atari and (2) Sears and the Atari's at least I can speak of first hand are not easy to put together as a set! 4: Inserts - just as the boxes - these are probably more rare than anything else - this stuff got tossed like a salad once you opend a game and started playing it...more people kept boxes than inserts I'd guess. 5: Production numbers (probably will never be known) - specific known variations (probably will never be completely documented)- and what is considered official and what is considered bootleg...a hard line needs to be drawn on this one and the two sides divided. 6: Price and Rarity must meet - this will be the hard part...I would guess, sale prices at shows and mostly Ebay would dictate the levels...you will get the occasional Frogger that will sell for $25 to some guy that just wants to play Frogger and does not care about collecting or Atari beyond wanting to play Frogger...but on average - if it is a $3 game - then there needs to be somewhere that you can look to say - ok $3 is what htis game should go for if it's just the cart - mint instructions are worth $2 and the box is worth $5 Mint or whatever...it would be really nice to have something like this - yes it's a lot of work, but I would bet it is something that a lot of us would use and would be willing to help out on making happen. 7: Grading service - as with comics, coins, and sports cards, it would be nice to have a grading service that would grade specific carts, manuals, and boxes...and no it's not as crazy or hard to imagine as it sounds....I'm not saying it is for each and every cartridge...but, it would be nice if there was a place that would authenticate and give a level of condition to games like Waterworld and CrazyClimber and so on...yeah it would be sealed up, but the majority of people are not going to be playing these games anyway...they collect them and they look at them and they say "I have Crazy Climber --if you want one to play...there are emulators (which I personally hate) and lesser grade carts...but if I have a Mint Quadrun...it would be nice from a buyer and seller standpoint to have a place that authenticates and says yes this is without a doubt a mint Quadrun. Not for everyone, and only a dream, but I think it's something that a lot of people would use...if I had time and was an expert I would start something like this myself...but I don't have a clue as to how to go about it...lol. Random thoughts... Mock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 I just can't buy into the "dare never to play the games for fear of degrading their condition" mentality. Videogames were designed with one thing in mind -- to be played! The day professional grading services enters the mainstream of this hobby is the day I'll call it quits on looking anywhere but in the wild for games to add to my collection. The last thing I need is a professional service to devalue my entire collection because I refuse to fork over money to them to have my games graded, sealed and rendered wholly unplayable. Conforming to a standards committee is precisely what I'd have to submit to in order to sell or trade any of my games with other collectors who seal and obey. Too many collectors will righteously give me the short end of the stick for daring to expose my games to the evils of air and gameplay, regardless of how carefully I handle and preserve them. Price guides and condition services? No thanks. 90% of the fun in this hobby is in playing the games. Having videogames in nice cosmetic condition is preferable, sure. But I really think you've lost touch with the hobby if condition becomes EVERYTHING. Look for oil on canvas paintings in excellent condition if you want to collect art and are so concerned with "value." Real art is more enjoyable and will appreciate in value far faster than the mass produced, ink-on-paper "art" of the videogame world. Stick a painting behind glass and it will still be pleasant to look at. But if we seal our videogames in professionally graded plastic tombs we've imprisoned the very magic that drove us to collect videogames in the first place -- their ability to offer us and our friends a hell of a lot of fun if only we dare to play them. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mock Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 You miss the point. Based on what you say in your post, how could any such service devalue your collection...you play them right? So - how does that change anything? The last thing I need is a professional service to devalue my entire collection because I refuse to fork over money to them to have my games graded, sealed and rendered wholly unplayable. Nothing wrong with playing your games, and for sure if you had one graded you could not play it in the case. If you like to play your games then that's fine...not like you have to send them in to be graded. I'm talking about really rare games that are on the upper end of the rarity scale that are still in top condition...or not in top condition...nothing says you can't open a graded game and play it if you want to? This would be more of an option for rare boxes and instruction booklets. I just see a change in the classic games on the way...I think more and more people will be getting into it and I think more and more fakes will start to show up of the rare games. Might be wrong...but I think you'll see it over the next 3 -5 years. Pro Grade service will probably not happen...I'm just exploring the thought more than anything..not trying to say that's what I hope happens or anything like it...it was last on the list because it was more of an afterthought. Yeah games were meant to be played and blah blah blah...that's why you pay $800 for a BBSB right? so you can play it? I don't buy it...people do pay big bucks for rare games and I'm sure they don't always throw it in the old 2600 every night for an hour. Most probably put them in storage. (not saying you bought BBSB - just an example...lol) Anyway - other than the grade service rant...any thoughts on the other (more important) stuff? Mock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Although BBSB is a bad example, I tend to agree with Mock on this, I collect >=$100.00 carts for the collecting purpose, if I want to play the game, I either burn it onto EPROM or use my Cuttle Cart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mock Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 Although BBSB is a bad example i know - i went to the end of the spectrum on that, but just trying to make the point. Like it or not, there are a lot of people who are collecting rare games for collecting purposes. It's fun, I enjoy it - makes those rare finds in the wild a lot more exciting...ask the guy who found Waterworld for $1 the other day in the 2600 forum...you think he was excited because it's a fun game to play ? Hell no - he was excited because it's a $100 game he found for $1. Mock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Do you know why BBSB is a bad example ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mock Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 Because it's not on the multi cart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 The reason is that BBSB uses two 16K bankswitching chips that were originally designed for the 2600 to accomplish having more memory available than the regular 32K address space that the 5200 has. The kernel code resides in the upper address space and because of the internal workings of the two bankswitching mask ROM's they were able to cram 40K into the cartridge. No EPROM cart or other known device can do this on a real 5200 unless you own a real BBSB cart. P.S. This statement excludes Kevin Horton's monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitfall Harry Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 You miss the point. Based on what you say in your post, how could any such service devalue your collection...you play them right? So - how does that change anything? Based on what I say in my post, I thought I answered this question of yours rather directly. I'll repeat it here, just in case you missed my point: "Conforming to a standards committee is precisely what I'd have to submit to in order to sell or trade any of my games with other collectors who seal and obey. Too many collectors will righteously give me the short end of the stick for daring to expose my games to the evils of air and gameplay, regardless of how carefully I handle and preserve them." I'm talking about really rare games that are on the upper end of the rarity scale that are still in top condition...or not in top condition If I invite friends over and say, "Hey look! I've got this really rare game that I just bought on eBay," then they'll say, "Great! Let's play it. It's so rare...I wonder if it plays the same as the ROM file I have on my emu?" Then I'll be forced to say something lame like, "Sorry. I can't take it out of its professionally sealed and graded case. If I open it but later want to trade or sell it, I'll have to pay the fine to have it professionally graded all over again. We'll just never know if the ROM is the same. But hey! The label looks nice, don't ya think?" ...nothing says you can't open a graded game and play it if you want to? This would be more of an option for rare boxes and instruction booklets. Game boxes take up a lot of space. They will take up a heck of a lot more space if they are sealed in rigid, crush proof, value-preserving professionally graded box enclosures. Encapsulating game boxes reduces their utility, as you can no longer store games and instruction sheets inside them when you're not playing them. Gone will be the days when you collect a box, then a game and then the instructions because who in their right mind will want to have these things professionally graded (not to mention pay and pay and pay) one at a time? All this overhead is sure to hasten the end of yet another way to enjoy the collecting aspect of the hobby, while benifiting only the value-interested videogame investors who always and only buy games that are CIB. I just see a change in the classic games on the way...I think more and more people will be getting into it and I think more and more fakes will start to show up of the rare games. Might be wrong...but I think you'll see it over the next 3 -5 years. We're seeing it now. People are out there faking games and selling them for big bucks on eBay. The trouble is, some games are so easy to fake -- especially the big bucks extreme rarities -- that even a professional grading service could not make an accurate assessment without tearing open the cartridge and surely damaging it. And even then, they will sometimes be unable to make the determination. Yet the games will be professionally graded nonetheless. How does a professional grader appraise a sealed box? Is it possible to know with foolproof certainty that the box was sealed by the videogame manufacturer? 1980's boxes do not have security features built into them. They are sealed with cheap ass glue which can easily be steamed open, have the contents dumped and replaced with cardboard scraps and resealed with the same original glue. There are so many ways for the unscrupled to easily fake their way around the pros. And once they do, they have a fake that is backed by the power of certification and then they are really primed to cash in big on eBay. Pro Grade service will probably not happen...I'm just exploring the thought more than anything..not trying to say that's what I hope happens or anything like it...it was last on the list because it was more of an afterthought. Like I said, I don't look forward to it either. Yeah games were meant to be played and blah blah blah...that's why you pay $800 for a BBSB right? so you can play it? I don't buy it...people do pay big bucks for rare games and I'm sure they don't always throw it in the old 2600 every night for an hour. Most probably put them in storage. (not saying you bought BBSB - just an example...lol) The most I ever paid for a game was $99, for a boxed Stronghold. But that was from an eBay lot which included 30 other boxed games. I play ALL of them. I don't have BBSB and I never will unless I'm lucky enough to find it in the wild. I've found rarer. Anyway - other than the grade service rant...any thoughts on the other (more important) stuff? About the Price Guide -- Yes, it would take an extraordinary effort by a lot of people to put one together that had any value. Videogame Rarity and Value do NOT go hand in hand, contrary to your prior assertion. Some games are wanted more because they play better or have an interesting history to them. What's "interesting" changes from day to day. How often do you think you can round up a lot of people to sink an extraordinary amount of time and effort into maintaining the accuracy of a price guide to keep it in step with the wild swings in value brought about by a continuous influx of knowledge poor, money hungry videogame speculators entering into the hobby? No matter how much wide-eyed speculation goes on, one thing remains more or less constant. And that is the rarity of videogames. Bidding wars on eBay, rumors and speculation will not change the actual numbers of existing games. This is why a widely-respected Rarity Guide does exist. Because compared to a Price Guide, a Rarity guide is a cakewalk. And it's bound to be spectaculary more accurate. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mock Posted May 1, 2003 Author Share Posted May 1, 2003 wow-that also explains why it is not on the multi-cart...lol. I knew what you were getting at, just did not know the theory behind it...interesting. Mock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xulchris Posted July 2, 2003 Share Posted July 2, 2003 Reason i asked is that I just picked up a Xenophobe box...the game is a rarity 7, but i have not been able to find a box until this one...I have seen a few of the games though...it got me to thinking....perhaps a x3 factor or something of that nature is in order for the boxes, but I don't know if even that does true justice to the value...these boxes in good shape are getting harder to come by with each year that passes and the carts are built like a tank...can't harldy destroy them...I saw an atricle once in a mag where they did all this crazy stuff to an atari cart and it still played...it was frozen, boiled, ran over...all kinds of stuff...case at some point was gone but the game still played on....lol. That gatefold box set is not easy to come by either...been working on mine for a year now and only have 6 of the 9. Mock I see boxed xenophobes all the time, only they are the PAL versions, but the PAL box and NTSC box are exactly the same AFAICT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mock Posted July 2, 2003 Author Share Posted July 2, 2003 I have never seen a PAL Xenophobe box, so i don't know? I figured PAL boxes would have multi-lingual properties? Mock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.