Minimizing jailbar/vertical lines on 2600?

[Keatah]

Taking a break from brainbeating interference issues..

 

I'm not sure which of the "modern-tech" enhancements is most valuable and does the most to enhance the classic gaming experience:

 

1- This style of programmable video mod, that digitally recreates the image with exact timing.

2- Flash carts and their interfaces to modern memory technology.

3- Modern development tools, emulators, and debuggers.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Keatah

[rednakes1]

Taking a break from brainbeating interference issues..

 

I'm not sure which of the "modern-tech" enhancements is most valuable and does the most to enhance the classic gaming experience:

 

1- This style of programmable video mod, that digitally recreates the image with exact timing.

2- Flash carts and their interfaces to modern memory technology.

3- Modern development tools, emulators, and debuggers.

On a related note, I probably would've stuck with a cartridge modded Flashback 2 if it was compatible with all the games. It had a near perfect picture - slightly dulled colors but no vertical lines or blurring. I wish they could do that again. I see someone else made the Walkman-style Atari on these boards so I hope there's more to come.

[rednakes1]

im not saying to give up by the way, but your not going to fix it by stabbing random crap, I have spent a considerable amount of time debugging it with tektronics and HP high speed meters, logic analyzers and oscilloscopes, and the only time I can actually get rid of it is if I blur the picture to absolute crap on a LCD TV, its just a fact of life on these older machines

 

heck here is a pure digital CGA to ntsc example I made and its got horizontal jailbars in the signal from who knows what cause it doesnt show up on the TTL digital monitor I have, maybe its the CFL lightbulb 8 foot above

 

When I was working on my AV mod, I had tried different schematics. In one of them I observed that if I put a cap at a certain spot of my circuit it would make the vertical lines fade out a bit, but in fact it was merely blurring the pic.

 

Right now I realize if I turn down the sharpness all the way on my CRT - in effect, softening the picture - the jailbars are diminished a tiny bit. Especially on Aquaventure... that game looks like crap with jailbars.

 

Anyways I think I am ready to give up. If you want to take a look at my motherboard perhaps I can send it in during my xmas vacation. I'm in Canada though.

 

 

BTW in the attachment, does my 2200uF cap look okay? The black end looks a bit cruddy. I just want to be sure everything's alright and not impacting the picture.

[Keatah]

When the entire thread is read and reviewed, I think it best to do a microcontroller-based digital mod like just discussed. These older 'tronics are going to need some propping up sooner or later somehow. They're going on 40 years old. Some even more. Some will need the services of a comprehensive electronics lab to do restores while at the same time keeping to replacing a minimal number of parts.

 

It's just how it goes.

 

On a related note, I probably would've stuck with a cartridge modded Flashback 2 if it was compatible with all the games. It had a near perfect picture - slightly dulled colors but no vertical lines or blurring. I wish they could do that again. I see someone else made the Walkman-style Atari on these boards so I hope there's more to come.

 

There's going to be more to come. That's a given.

 

My internal jury is still out on these recreations. None of them are 100% compatible. And some even have physical limitations like not accepting all cartridge sizes and shapes. Furthermore I've tended to notice that once an FPGA product is out, its core isn't really updated.

 

Software emulators are different in that area. Some have been tweaked and updated over a period of 15 or more years. That's a pretty good track record. But they're not for everyone either, they're a whole different breed.

[AtariLeaf]

Crap, bad snowstorm today. Doubt I'll get out to the game store today. I'm never going to get this system checked.

[maiki]

Don't forget that RF interference and composite noise is part of good old days goodness. If you are looking for perfect clean RGB arcade picture (not Atari 2600 anymore)... just go for Stella and some sort of VGA to RGB interface... or just plug anything into HDMI port of a LCD and you have ... the disaster... Come on man, just be reasonable!

Edited December 11, 2016 by maiki

[rednakes1]

Crap, bad snowstorm today. Doubt I'll get out to the game store today. I'm never going to get this system checked.

Have you tried checking for jailbars without a cartridge inserted, when it shows those random patterns? I still get jailbars when it shows the colours... if it's a bright background then I can easily see them.

[rednakes1]

Don't forget that RF interference and composite noise is part of good old days goodness. If you are looking for perfect clean RGB arcade picture (not Atari 2600 anymore)... just go for Stella and some sort of VGA to RGB interface... or just plug anything into HDMI port of a LCD and you have ... the disaster... Come on man, just be reasonable!

But that's why we are here to get the most out of our aging devices and keep them maintained well into the 21st century.

Edited December 11, 2016 by rednakes1

[Keatah]

If you operate in the digital domain entirely you'll never have to deal with interference or image inconsistencies. You can tune emulator Stella to soften the image a little and add very subtle scanlines and artifacting for texture.

 

When I was a kid I could only dream about having such image quality.

 

And I think that the digital mod is the only way you're going to be satisfied if you're sticking with real hardware..Amiright?

[rednakes1]

If you operate in the digital domain entirely you'll never have to deal with interference or image inconsistencies. You can tune emulator Stella to soften the image a little and add very subtle scanlines and artifacting for texture.

 

When I was a kid I could only dream about having such image quality.

 

And I think that the digital mod is the only way you're going to be satisfied if you're sticking with real hardware..Amiright?

 

 

I originally had the Flashback 2, and going from that to the 2600 was awesome, but the bummer was seeing the jailbars. So it's been annoying me quite a bit LOL. I have various Atari emulation devices already (RetroPie, PC, Mac, PSP, PS Vita), but I enjoy playing on the actual console instead.

 

I think the FPGA mod would just be the easy (and costly) way out. And who knows, maybe there will still be jailbars! There's gotta be a simpler solution. For me, it would also be nice for us to find the fix/workaround so that it could help others as well. I've learned a lot from doing this.

[AtariLeaf]

Have you tried checking for jailbars without a cartridge inserted, when it shows those random patterns? I still get jailbars when it shows the colours... if it's a bright background then I can easily see them.

 

No, I didn't think it would be a good idea turning the console on without a game in it.

Edited December 12, 2016 by AtariLeaf

[AtariLeaf]

So I finally had a chance to bring in one of my systems to the local game store (Game Cycle) and lo and behold the jailbars ARE present on my system in their store using their tv and my power supply. So we try a store power supply and same thing.

 

I ask if they have a 2600 in the store that we can try for comparison, and it just so happens a boxed heavy sixer came into the store today and we hooked it up - jailbars a plenty using both my power supply and the store one.

 

Save2600 is right - many systems have it and it depends on things like your tv, how high you have brightness, or other factors as to whether you see it or not. I'm sure there are many that don't at all (some have posted they don't have this at all) and who knows what might be involved but after 11 pages we're no closer to a concrete answer other than "that's the way it is" which is fine. I think I'm ready to put this issue to bed. I may buy a better UPS or reconditioner that may help but otherwise I'll just keep the brightness and contrast down and enjoy my systems because otherwise they all work just great, since my original concern was there was something failing on my systems. I'm convinced that's not the case and that this is simply an annoyance to live with, which is fine.

 

As a side note, love that game store. They gave me a loose disc only copy of Wii Excite Truck for free, a game I've always wanted but haven't found locally for a good price.

Edited December 17, 2016 by AtariLeaf

[rednakes1]

Thanks for sharing. Just FYI I have a short-rainbow Atari Jr, which I A/V modded last night. No jailbars this time (or before modding), using same power supplies and outlets. So it looks like my other issues with the four switchers had to do with the Ataris themselves.

[AtariLeaf]

Thanks for sharing. Just FYI I have a short-rainbow Atari Jr, which I A/V modded last night. No jailbars this time (or before modding), using same power supplies and outlets. So it looks like my other issues with the four switchers had to do with the Ataris themselves.

 

Yep my junior is fine too.

[Keatah]

Yup. Farting around on the internet is ok for fuses and switches and things.

 

But when it comes to things like this, deep inside the circuit, you need pro-grade tools and test equipment.

[Osgeld]

so is mine

[Rom Collector]

OK, this probably came up previously, but I'm too lazy to read the previous 10 pages.

I purchased a Cuttle Cart about 15 years ago or so, and found the TVI/RFI/EMI (TV, RF, Electromagnetic interference) to be horrendous. The video was terribly distorted and also affected the audio to some degree.

So I found that ferrite filter chokes can be a wonderful thing. I put the cokes on the audio input cable of the CC, the Atari's AC adapter power supply cord, and even the coax cable going to the analog TV input. The problem was reduced by 99%.

I found the MFJ-701 to work the best, but unfortunately also to be the most expensive. Since then, I use ferrite for all kinds of things now as I am a ham radio operator. If you don't want to spend as much, type 43 material toroid cores, or snap on beads will work also. I recommend the large ones as you get more turns of wire or cable around a single choke. Type (also called mix) 44 and 31 should also work, but 43 is most commonly found. Wind, or snap on the chokes as close to the Atari as possible. You can find these things on eBay. If it doesn't mention what material its made of, it might still work, or maybe not.

Oh ya, ferrite is fairly brittle material, so getting the snap together ones would be less likely to break, as they have plastic around them.

Here's some links: http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-701

http://palomar-engineers.com/rfi-kits/rfi-tip-sheet

https://www.cnet.com/forums/discussions/ferrite-cores-to-use-or-not-to-use-578132/

If that's not enough, here's more:

http://www.hamuniverse.com/rfi.html

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/SAC0305Ferrites.pdf

http://www.copperelectronics.com/discus4/messages/34/113137.html?1302103540

 

Robert KJ6JJK (formerly KF6OZU)

[Rom Collector]

I just bought these a few days ago to use on my antenna feed-lines (Coax cable)

It doesn't mention the mix, so it may not work for you, or me. But if they dont work for my application, I will use them for different frequency in the future.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/192014757501?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[rednakes1]

I bought the same thing (pack of 5) from eBay over a month ago and am still waiting for them. I'll let you know if it helps at my end. Would it help even if I don't use RF anymore (composite)? I mean, if I only put the beads on the power supply wire?

[AtariLeaf]

I bought the same thing (pack of 5) from eBay over a month ago and am still waiting for them. I'll let you know if it helps at my end. Would it help even if I don't use RF anymore (composite)? I mean, if I only put the beads on the power supply wire?

 

You still have RF only systems don't you? Might be interesting to see how it affects both modded and unmodded systems, if at all.

[rednakes1]

No I sold my RF-only system last week. If you want I could give you some of the beads.

[Rom Collector]

Oh ya, one last thing. I use thin coax cable, so this may not fit on RG-6 coax, or s cable, but would fit on a AC adapter cord or most composite cables. Again larger, or multiple chokes, would work best.

[Rom Collector]

Composite or S cable should be less prone to interference than analog RF.

[AtariLeaf]

No I sold my RF-only system last week. If you want I could give you some of the beads.

 

Thanks but its fine, I can get some here, will try next week when I'm shopping

[rednakes1]

So we can reasonably conclude that there are 6-switchers, 4-switchers and Jr.'s that have jailbars and those that don't.

 

The problem is either: (a) there were some Ataris that were 'faulty' to begin with, or (b) there are components that degraded over the past 30+ years. Or all of the above

 

I do take this as a challenge to figure out why my 4-switch is showing jailbars, so maybe sometime in the future I'll look into it at more detail. Any recommendation for a reliable but inexpensive oscilloscope would be great.. I've noticed there are now USB oscilloscopes and mobile-based (iOS/Android) ones as well. It's been a while since I've used one.

 

In the meantime I'll just enjoy the Xmas break