+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 4, 2016 Author Share Posted November 4, 2016 To save power, you could try disabling the amp in the AtariVox. If you're using amplified (independently powered) speakers you won't need it. Remove the LM386 (should be in a socket) and tap your amp to the negative side of capacitor C3. Richard, Are you saying this is likely a power issue? Let me make sure i understand what you are asking to do here: Remove the opamp (it is indeed socketed). Run a new wire from the negative leg of C3 to the center post off the audio jack? And I should somehow make this connection easy to disconnect so when using the Vox outside my home receiver I could install the opamp back into it and disconnect the separate signal wire? I can try that of course, but I did notice that with the volume even at halfway on the Vox I still have to pretty much turn the level to nearly the same as the audio coming off the 7800 on the mixer to balance them. If I remove the amp from the Vox I'm concerned it won't be picked up at all by the mixer at that point or possibly get way drowned out by the default 7800 audio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard H. Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 Are you saying this is likely a power issue? Could be. I think it's definitely worth trying. Run a new wire from the negative leg of C3 to the center post off the audio jack? Yes. Don't forget, the volume pot on the AtariVox is also being bypassed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 If you modify the circuit by pulling the Op-Amp, would this not risk damage to the Speakjet chip in the event the output becomes shorted or connected to a low impedance load (ie speaker)? I don't imagine the OpAmp would sink a large amount of current during use unless connected to a low impedance such as a speaker. So if excessive current is in fact resetting the AVox, perhaps an extension with larger gauge wire (ie serial cable) might fix it if it's a cable impedance issue, or connecting the AVox to powered speaker. You can try removing the casing and plug the Vox directly into the Atari to rule out series resistance in the cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 5, 2016 Author Share Posted November 5, 2016 I've already tried the AVox+ out of its case and plugged directly into the 7800 port. No change. Will check into the removal of the opamp perhaps tomorrow and post the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 5, 2016 Author Share Posted November 5, 2016 Removed the opamp and wired up the center post of the audio out to the negative on C3. I could hear audio..barely, but I'm afraid no difference. Still resets when the wizard shows up and ALWAYS does the reset during a teleport. Not on the first one mind you, might take 3 or 6..but eventually it will reset during one of the wizards teleports. So...I have to chalk this up to just something with Dungeon Stalker and the AVox+. Others have had it happen and I've really tried everything I know to confirm or in this case...dismiss it being a power issue. Oh well..back to playing! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 Yeah, from your tests it seems power draw isn't the issue. With Dungeon Stalker we tried removing or substituting various Wizard phrases to no avail. Reducing the speech would delay it, but eventually the speakjet chip in the vox would reset mid-speech. (on the unit with the problem.) Whatever the issue is, it only happens to some units. Between the three of us that worked on developing the game, we played dozens of hours, and didn't encounter the issue once. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 9, 2016 Author Share Posted November 9, 2016 I'm going to pull out my Eckard Dev Bios modded 7800 tonight and try testing Dungeon Stalker with the AVox+ and see if the same happens with it. Aside from being modded with the Dev OS bios chip and the modifications for that to work, it isn't modded in any other way. Still RF only output..etc. Will post my results later tonight if I get a chance. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 I'm going to pull out my Eckard Dev Bios modded 7800 tonight and try testing Dungeon Stalker with the AVox+ and see if the same happens with it. Aside from being modded with the Dev OS bios chip and the modifications for that to work, it isn't modded in any other way. Still RF only output..etc. Will post my results later tonight if I get a chance. Mine has stock NTSC BIOS, Best AV mod, and zero issues playing Dungeon Starlker with an AtariVox. Concerto is another story however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 Mine has stock NTSC BIOS, Best AV mod, and zero issues playing Dungeon Starlker with an AtariVox. Concerto is another story however. Understood. And the Dev OS modded 7800 is an original '84 model with the expansion port..etc. Point is both of my 7800s in my collection have never had compatibility issues with anything on every game I've tested them with. Only until I tried Dungeon Stalker with my AVox+ did I start to encounter this odd glitch. Again, it isn't isolated since it was a known issue as reported by others before me. I'm just trying to figure out a reason that might help as to the why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Understood. And the Dev OS modded 7800 is an original '84 model with the expansion port..etc. Point is both of my 7800s in my collection have never had compatibility issues with anything on every game I've tested them with. Only until I tried Dungeon Stalker with my AVox+ did I start to encounter this odd glitch. Again, it isn't isolated since it was a known issue as reported by others before me. I'm just trying to figure out a reason that might help as to the why. Yeah 7800s are weird like that. Does the AtariVox act up with any 2600 games on your 7800 system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 16, 2016 Author Share Posted November 16, 2016 Yeah 7800s are weird like that. Does the AtariVox act up with any 2600 games on your 7800 system? At first I did have issues with 2600 games not seeming to recognize that I had an AVox+ attached. Finally figured out it was due to a bad TIA. Popped in a replacement from a donor 2600 light sixer and good as new. However, I did find a pattern to Dungeon Stalker and the reset which, I will explain in the next reply.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 16, 2016 Author Share Posted November 16, 2016 Wanted to give an update on the issue with my AtariVox+ and Dungeon Stalker resetting... I pulled out my original 7800 that is pretty much stock minus the Eckard's Dev OS bios modification. It has been a while since I fired that 7800 up and it appears the RF modulator might be going out as I have video but no audio and no adjustment inside the RF modulator could get the sound to work 100% without also unplugging and replugging in the RF cord after it was powered on. Anyway, this 7800 with both power supplies I have also does the reset with Dungeon Stalker when the wizard shows up. However, I found a pattern! Turns out the phrase "Watch Out" is what causes the reset. And this was confirmed as my AVox+ also resets when doing the AtariVox Soundtest rom from Atarimaximus that contains all the Dungeon Stalker sounds. The AVox+ works fine testing the sounds until after I play the "Watch Out" phrase. And on three playthroughs on both 7800s when that phrase is uttered, that is when my AVox+ does the startup tune and produces no speech thereafter unless I unplug it and plug it back in. So...still don't know why it happens, but the "Watch Out" phrase is what triggers it on my A7800. Does that help at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Is there any way to test these sounds in 2600 mode? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 However, I found a pattern! Turns out the phrase "Watch Out" is what causes the reset. And this was confirmed as my AVox+ also resets when doing the AtariVox Soundtest rom from Atarimaximus that contains all the Dungeon Stalker sounds. The AVox+ works fine testing the sounds until after I play the "Watch Out" phrase. And on three playthroughs on both 7800s when that phrase is uttered, that is when my AVox+ does the startup tune and produces no speech thereafter unless I unplug it and plug it back in. So...still don't know why it happens, but the "Watch Out" phrase is what triggers it on my A7800. Does that help at all? Being able to reproduce the issue without play-through is a big step forward. Unfortunately in our tests we were able to reproduce the issue after completely eliminating the Wizard "watch out" speech, though it took a bit longer to trigger. So when you trigger it in the utility, does it happen on first play, or do you need to hit it a bunch of times? If the latter, are there any other phrases you can trigger it with? Is there any way to test these sounds in 2600 mode? I could put together a playback 2600 rom, like Atarius Maximus' 7800 one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 16, 2016 Author Share Posted November 16, 2016 So when you trigger it in the utility, does it happen on first play, or do you need to hit it a bunch of times? If the latter, are there any other phrases you can trigger it with? I could put together a playback 2600 rom, like Atarius Maximus' 7800 one. Yes I do seem to recall that during one of the playthroughs I did on my primary 7800 that is LHE AV modded that another phrase during the wizard's teleportation antics also caused it to reset once but can't recall which phrase it was? I was just locked in on the fact that the watch out phrase always caused it to reset when it was uttered. Again I've only had the AVox+ reset when the wizard is on the screen and it wasn't until I actually connected the AVox+ up and could hear it by itself that I was able to notice which phrase causes this. Remember my other 7800's audio doesn't sync right through the RF so I was able to hear it isolated more easily. Now..about the utility... Yes the AVox+ reset itself the first time I played the Watch Out phrase. Resetting it and it didn't do it again after that. But power cycle the 7800 and go straight to the phrase and it would reset on me. So I'm sure there are other phrases that cause it but the Watch Out has something about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Cafeman Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 I just reviewed our group message from 12/2015 (Al, RevEng, me, AtariusMaximus) and a lot of the same things were discussed. Watch Out / Wizard resets were the most consistent, but sometimes Watch Out didn't reset the Vox, and sometimes another phrase would seem to cause it. Watch Out was removed, still the reset glitch would eventually happen. Buffers added - reset still happened. Frustrating! Was this ever tried? Eliminate all speech from just the Wizard stage, and see if that prevents the reset glitch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 16, 2016 Author Share Posted November 16, 2016 So the Watch Out phrase isn't in the actual Dungeon Stalker released cart? I wasn't aware of that. But I will flash the AtariVox+ speech test rom back to my Mateo's 16 in 1 tonight and try hammering other phrases over and over and see if I can get others to do it. I'm also interested in a 2600 version that I could load up on my Harmony and see if I can replicate it there? My guess is that everything will work without issue in 2600 mode..because...yeah...just how it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Cafeman Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 So the Watch Out phrase isn't in the actual Dungeon Stalker released cart? I wasn't aware of that. Not what I meant. I meant that AM or RevEng removed it and compile a new ROM which was tested with. Watch Out is certainly in the released cart, which I own and play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 But I will flash the AtariVox+ speech test rom back to my Mateo's 16 in 1 tonight and try hammering other phrases over and over and see if I can get others to do it. When you do get around to it, I'd really like to hear the results. More than anyone, I'd like to get to the root of this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 When you do get around to it, I'd really like to hear the results. More than anyone, I'd like to get to the root of this issue. I still need to load up the AVox+ test again as you asked, but in the meantime I just thought of something else? Most of the time when this happens...it is always when the wizard is on the screen. So if you think about what is different during that part, it is the fact that aside from his teleportation, there is also the teleportation sound. Now that I think about it, the reset always occurs when he is teleporting and that sound is being played along with speech which, is usually the Watch Out phrase. So I'd be curious to know if the rom could be modified to not have the wizard's teleport sound or change it in some way to something shorter and see what happens as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 Most of the time when this happens...it is always when the wizard is on the screen. So if you think about what is different during that part, it is the fact that aside from his teleportation, there is also the teleportation sound. Now that I think about it, the reset always occurs when he is teleporting and that sound is being played along with speech which, is usually the Watch Out phrase. So I'd be curious to know if the rom could be modified to not have the wizard's teleport sound or change it in some way to something shorter and see what happens as well? I could do that, but it doesn't really jibe with your being able to reproduce the issue with AtariusMaximus' speech utility; there's no other sounds or extra graphics in the utility. Since testing in-game takes so long vs the speech utility, I'd rather limit tests to the utility if we could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 27, 2016 Author Share Posted November 27, 2016 Did more testing today with the AVox+ and AVox test rom. I wish I had something concrete to present, but I don't. Basically if I play each phrase and fully wait for it to finish and then play the next, then it never resets. However, if I play a phrase and then immediately start another before the other finishes, then after about 4 or 5 times of this, it will reset regardless of the phrase being used. It also doesn't matter which phrase as I can literally just choose any of them and keep pressing the fire button to activate that phrase, it will do the same thing and eventually reset after about 4 or 5 presses of the button. So using "Death" phrase as an example, I can press it...listen for it to complete, and then play it again and do this over and over without issue. If however, I play it and then press the fire button again before it finishes, this causes the phrase to try and begin again, but after about 4 or 5 times of that in a row, it will reset. I also noticed using the test, that some phrases (Mostly those with multiple words), will occasionally take a while to actually start playing. So let's say I play the Death phrase and then choose I am Stronger. The I am stronger will occasionally have about a half second delay to nearly full second delay before it plays after another phrase has been played first. This doesn't always occur, but is an example of how some of the longer phrases take longer to sometimes kick off. So it would appear that the reset of the AVox+ at least on my 7800 is because it is getting an overflow of data and can't keep up. Remember when it resets itself, I only hear the AVox+ startup tune and not the phrase "Atari Vox". I guess the next test, is to put this test rom on my Harmony and see what happens? After that, do the same on a 2600 as I've several models of that as well to choose from? Any of this helpful? I can attempt to take some video footage of it occuring if that would help? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 Any of this helpful? I can attempt to take some video footage of it occurring if that would help? Thank-you, it's extremely helpful! I have an idea of something new to try, and I'll also try porting the vox codes as used in Atarius Maximus' program to a 2600 program. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 Cool! Glad it was of help. Again, I'm not technical enough on the software to know what is happening, but it seems to be a buffer overflow issue that occurs? So given this, if it were possible to limit the playback of the AVox+ or make sure it was fully done from saying the previous phrase before another starts in Dungeon Stalker, that might likely prevent it from happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevEng Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Yeah, the vox has it's own "buffer full" signal which will stop the flow of bytes from the driver. I also tested a theory that the buffer system was broken by adding a more-restrictive software buffer (slowing the flow of bytes, and pausing the driver if the software queue was getting full). It didn't help a bit. I do send the AtariVox a couple commands to reset the pitch, speed, and queue before each new phrase. I'll play with those in the next test, along with providing a 2600 version. The speakjet chip in the AtariVox runs closed software, and it's possible the reset command is buggy on some revisions. Just a theory without any proof at this point, and I've blown through a lot of theories during the investigation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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