Will you support the new Atari Console

[Keatah]

I've only skimmed the compatibility list, but it looks like many of the homebrews that don't work are those that use newer developments like DPC+ and the Melody board, things that Stella supports. If the Flashback doesn't support these and if there are no plans for it to in the future, you're essentially telling developers to stop advancing homebrew development so games will work on a platform that fans of homebrew games largely don't use as their primary way to play.

 

Profit motives are always going to trump wants and needs of gamers and developers. If someone has to reorganize or move aside or do something different, then so be it. The almighty dollah speaks.

 

On the other hand, if a homebrewer makes a compelling game - then gamers will seek out the hardware necessary to run that game. Good games are going to happen. Especially the ones born of a labor of love. They seem to be immune to market forces, profits, or available hardware.

 

The ones driven by profit are the ones going to be affected by a fragmented platform.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

Yeah, I think it would be silly to suggest that developers write games specifically for the Portable, but there's no reason that if they're using fairly generic technology (i.e., no special chips) they can't tweak a few things, if needed, to work on both. I think the goal of most homebrews is to reach as big of an appreciative audience as possible (it's not like it can really be about money, right?).

 

Right now that appreciative audience is made up of collectors who buy homebrew cartridges to play on actual hardware, or players who use established emulators like Stella. I just don't see the Flashback expanding that audience significantly. The average Joe who buys one out of nostalgia or gets one for Christmas probably isn't going to go down the homebrew rabbit hole. At most, he might see the SD support as a way to play a game he loved as a kid that isn't included. And if that game is Pitfall II or Berzerk or one of the other games that has issues, he's going to be disappointed.

 

It's up to the game programmers to make games that work on 2600 hardware. It's up to emulation developers to make emulators that recreate that hardware as faithfully as possible. If the emulator can't run a game that runs on hardware, it's not up to the game programmer to "fix" what isn't broken.

Edited December 21, 2016 by KaeruYojimbo

[Keatah]

It was just said that the emulator in the flashback/portable can be tweaked to fix one new game, sometimes at the expense of no-longer-included games.

 

This isn't a tenable situation for developers. Since the flashback consoles and handhelds are a moving platform, it isn't in the best interests of any developer to be chasing it. The platform seems adept at changing yearly, so it can do what it does best. Adapt and accommodate the existing software.

 

Emulator MAME, Emulator Stella, Emulator Altirra, and many more undergo changes and improvements and usually don't break backward compatibility just bcause a new game needs supporting.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Emulator MAME, Emulator Stella, Emulator Altirra, and many more undergo changes and improvements and usually don't break backward compatibility just bcause a new game needs supporting.

Of cause they will break compatibility if the game was tailored to their flaws before. That's exactly the reason why it makes no sense to adapt any development to emulator flaws.

[Mr SQL]

 

I would say that there is room for new technologies, because otherwise why bother with a cartridge slot? If it fits in there it's game!

 

And when does a technology become official? Or worthy? There are numerous examples of fine games that don't use "classic Atari Technologies". And "classic" Atari is no longer around to approve or dis-approve of recent developments.

 

bank1.pngbank2.pngbank3.png

I also say all these bank switch schemes are "official". Any one of them seems to work and get the job done. Who is the recognized governing body of bankswitch schemes? Certainly not Atari, they're a buncha suits.. And memory access schemes can be as custom as any program ever written. I understand Nintendo has hundreds.

 

 

 

 

 

Keatah I wish it supported more back switching schemes, particularly the SuperCharger format which isn't even modern (1982).

 

However like it or not it is an official Atari 2600 console consisting of official Atari hardware running a 2600 virtual machine/emu that also takes cartridges. We are limited to a select few bank switching schemes true, but alot is still possible.

 

Right now while converting Virtual World BASIC to CBS RAM format I've encountered some major performance issues running just classic code:

 

Rendering a 30 HZ nonstandard display is not possible at all.

60 HZ 30 FPS tears alot, like on earlier builds of Stella that use software rendering (maybe they copied the algorithm, it tears apart exactly the same way).

60 HZ 60 FPS completely tears the screen apart.

 

Stella handles all three of those things perfectly so I wish they chose it as the official emu but this is what we have to work with so I will try to support it

 

I think more developers will be inclined to try to develop for it too as this console gains momentum - I expect to see tiny cartridges being released with tiny cover art and perhaps deluxe editions of games on normal sized carts with a tiny cart packaged in as well

 

We already have adapter carts available for the full size console that allow us to play the tiny cartridges and tiny multicarts on older consoles. Through clever naming convention, the tiny cartridges can also be configured to boot automatically when inserted into the adapter (no harmony menu).

[Keatah]

I don't mean to argue semantics or wordplays or anything like that. I just have a very difficult time accepting the flashback portable as an Atari official console. Who sanctioned it?

 

But for sake of argument and this moment I will agree that it is the new official console from Atari. And with that in mind I am required to say it is the worst POS load of junk implementation of the VCS/2600 to date. I have never seen worse. It's buggy as all hell. It cannot support any control schemes beyond the basic joystick. It doesn't run a 3rd of the existing roms out there. It's cheap, it has a limited-lifespan built-in battery, it won't last 40 years like the original consoles.. It's full of mistakes and pales in comparison to the one designed in 1977. It will absolutely NOT run any of the better homebrew games. Ohh it will run some, but once the programmers get sophisticated and make use of features present in the 1st generation consoles it will fall flat on its face. And the bad "review" keeps on rolling. I'll stop here to let it save face - if it's not bruised too badly already.

 

However, if this is not an official VCS/2600 then the tone changes 180. There would be many good things to say about it. Much easier to accept it for what it is. A clone. Sporting modern technology to bring you a reasonably playable clone that comes a nice portable formfactor with nothing extra to buy or fret over.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Keatah

[ZackAttack]

How is this an official 2600? I tried every 2600 game I had and not a single one fit in the cartridge slot.

[Mr SQL]

I don't mean to argue semantics or wordplays or anything like that. I just have a very difficult time accepting the flashback portable as an Atari official console. Who sanctioned it?

 

But for sake of argument and this moment I will agree that it is the new official console from Atari. And with that in mind I am required to say it is the worst POS load of junk implementation of the VCS/2600 to date. I have never seen worse. It's buggy as all hell. It cannot support any control schemes beyond the basic joystick. It doesn't run a 3rd of the existing roms out there. It's cheap, it has a limited-lifespan built-in battery, it won't last 40 years like the original consoles.. It's full of mistakes and pales in comparison to the one designed in 1977. It will absolutely NOT run any of the better homebrew games. Ohh it will run some, but once the programmers get sophisticated and make use of features present in the 1st generation consoles it will fall flat on its face. And the bad "review" keeps on rolling. I'll stop here to let it save face - if it's not bruised too badly already.

 

However, if this is not an official VCS/2600 then the tone changes 180. There would be many good things to say about it. Much easier to accept it for what it is. A clone. Sporting modern technology to bring you a reasonably playable clone that comes a nice portable formfactor with nothing extra to buy or fret over.

Good comparison, definitely fair to be more critical since it's marketed as an official Atari Console.

 

For that reason I'm not sure I agree that not supporting the newer games that use DPC+ or run on the ARM is necessarily a bad idea; some play better than the arcade and may not feel as much like Atari games - only one super game was bundled onboard with the classic games for a reason.

[Keatah]

Just have to try and get the last word in here. Now. It can be an official atari console. But it makes for a lousy VCS. And to call it a VCS or 2600 only enhances its failure.

[+Nathan Strum]

However like it or not it is an official Atari 2600 console consisting of official Atari hardware running a 2600 virtual machine/emu that also takes cartridges.

Perhaps it's a matter of semantics, but I never considered the Flashback to be an "Atari" console. The Flashback is an ATGames tribute clone. The only connection it has to anything resembling Atari is that the Flashback is licensed from whoever owns whatever's left of what used to be Atari. It has the logo stamped on the box, but it's no more by "Atari" than the Intellivision Flashback is by "Mattel", or the ColecoVison Flashback is actually by "Coleco".

[Andromeda Stardust]

The new Atari Flashback Portable - when you power the unit on the first thing displayed is Atari Flashback Console

 

Seems accurate, it's got a mini cartridge port that takes universal SD cartridges instead of utilizing a proprietary cartridge format. That really makes it an open system to develop for, now any software shop with one of these can burn tiny Atari carts in-house:

Atari 2600 Cart burner.jpg

 

I wonder if Al is intending to support the new console with mini cartridges in the Atari age store in time for the Holidays? That could be the reason the store's been closed!

Okay I get this is meant as a joke, but seriously...

 

Not trying to buzzkill, but developing games to run on bad emulators is a step backwards. If AtGames ever improved their emulation in the future, it might break these bad games. Just, no.

[+Gemintronic]

Yeah. This is not a new Atari system. The emulator doesn't always work on the games I've developed so far.

 

I'd say the way forward is to encourage those who consider us their "target audience" like those developing FPGA boards.

 

Instead of directing effort towards this Mr SQL I'd offer another suggestion: Make vwBASIC target the Atari 5200. You'd be the ONLY game in town for high level languages.

[Mr SQL]

Yeah. This is not a new Atari system. The emulator doesn't always work on the games I've developed so far.

 

I'd say the way forward is to encourage those who consider us their "target audience" like those developing FPGA boards.

 

Instead of directing effort towards this Mr SQL I'd offer another suggestion: Make vwBASIC target the Atari 5200. You'd be the ONLY game in town for high level languages.

Cool idea, I actually have a project going to port vwBASIC to the 8-bit/5200 but I want to make it cross compile so I am not fully utilizing the 5200, kind of like having a governor on it

 

Also the old BASIC compiler for the 5200 is back in development again on the 8-bit programming forum, in Python this time.

 

Perhaps it's a matter of semantics, but I never considered the Flashback to be an "Atari" console. The Flashback is an ATGames tribute clone. The only connection it has to anything resembling Atari is that the Flashback is licensed from whoever owns whatever's left of what used to be Atari. It has the logo stamped on the box, but it's no more by "Atari" than the Intellivision Flashback is by "Mattel", or the ColecoVison Flashback is actually by "Coleco".

 

There's a splash screen that says Atari Interactive, says Atari owns all rights to everything Atari in fine print. Doesn't mention AtGames once. Then it says Atari Flashback Classic Game Console. Definitely labeled as an Atari by Atari, with Atari displayed as many times as possible - multiple Atari symbols in different sizes.

 

Perhaps Nolan Bushnell advised on this console if he was on the board of directors for Atari still, he was when they were doing the Atari Pong festival 4 years ago.

 

 

Okay I get this is meant as a joke, but seriously...

 

Not trying to buzzkill, but developing games to run on bad emulators is a step backwards. If AtGames ever improved their emulation in the future, it might break these bad games. Just, no.

 

Well when there are millions of these Atari's out there more and more programmers will be inclined to support it as the LCD (least common denominator, not the screen) so such games would run fine on the full size consoles and in Stella too.

 

I wish the compatibility was better too but I think it's pretty cool for developers to see a mostly compatible Atari that's an open system again

[Keatah]

Since programmers will need to program for the lcd then does that mean they won't be able to take advantage of (or develop) new hardware tricks?

 

And how about release candidate testing? They now have to test on this hardware, and original VCS, and perhaps Emulator Stella. How will they handle it when (it seems like) every year the emulation model is being changed in these flashbacks?

 

I hesitantly and reluctantly concede that these have the potential to eliminate original 1977-designed hardware. People just don't want to mess with the old material as much. Of course there are diehards and collectors and nostalgia-nuts out there that would have nothing else. But by and large, the buying public isn't going give a rat's ass.

 

Coming from inside the industry and observing how things like this transpire. I gotta say, again and again, I don't like it.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Don't worry. As long as there are working original consoles existing, almost every homebrewer will target those. And as long as all commercially more or less suck, there is no danger that those will overshadow homebrewing.

[Schizophretard]

I wish the compatibility was better too but I think it's pretty cool for developers to see a mostly compatible Atari that's an open system again

 

Most people could just download 2600.emu(based on Stella) to the phones they already have with much more compatibility than the Atari Flashback Portable. Developers should see that as a cool open system. My point is that maybe if this existed 10 to 15 years ago it would be something to be excited about developing for but today the Atari Flashback Portable is a downgrade compared to even the most basic Android smart phone. That's why I think that if there is going to be a dedicated Atari portable it should at the very least emulate the 2600 as well as a phone can and maybe as bonuses emulate other Atari consoles too, put in a Lynx shell instead of a reused SEGA one, the ability to plug in controllers and hook up to a TV, etc. Something like that would make more sense to develop for than that a plug and play or I guess charge and play in this case that is marketed for the Average Joe that picks one up as an impulse buy with no knowledge of these proposed homebrew SD card cartridges. Or maybe AtGames not even make hardware at all by forking 2600.emu to be an officially licensed Atari emulator for Android that has original releases as well as homebrews as in app purchases. That way they could just constantly update the emulator, the library, GUI, etc. while paying for the licenses of the games through in app purchases. In other words, it could be like a better version of Atari Greatest Hits ReMaster(which has 100,000 to 500,000 downloads) that has a store for more games kind of like how you can buy more tables in Pinball Arcade.

[Keatah]

Most people could just download 2600.emu(based on Stella) to the phones they already have with much more compatibility than the Atari Flashback Portable. Developers should see that as a cool open system.

 

On both counts they could and should. "Because emulators" be damned, full speed ahead!

 

 

My point is that maybe if this existed 10 to 15 years ago it would be something to be excited about developing for but today the Atari Flashback Portable is a downgrade compared to even the most basic Android smart phone.

 

 

That's very true. Emulator Stella has been accurate enough to enable me to have fun with a huge range of games from the earliest 2K games like Night Driver and Canyon Bomber all the way through state-of-the-art material like Stay Frosty 2 and Dintar's Pac-Man and Scramble. There is ongoing work to improve its accuracy even further. So, yes, it's a solid platform and pretty much above anything commercially available.

 

I believe the hardware exists, and has existed for several years now, to build a quality gaming system in portable format which uses current-day emulators. No custom code required. AND NO KICKSTARTER BULLSHIT!

[Mr SQL]

 

Most people could just download 2600.emu(based on Stella) to the phones they already have with much more compatibility than the Atari Flashback Portable. Developers should see that as a cool open system. My point is that maybe if this existed 10 to 15 years ago it would be something to be excited about developing for but today the Atari Flashback Portable is a downgrade compared to even the most basic Android smart phone. That's why I think that if there is going to be a dedicated Atari portable it should at the very least emulate the 2600 as well as a phone can and maybe as bonuses emulate other Atari consoles too, put in a Lynx shell instead of a reused SEGA one, the ability to plug in controllers and hook up to a TV, etc. Something like that would make more sense to develop for than that a plug and play or I guess charge and play in this case that is marketed for the Average Joe that picks one up as an impulse buy with no knowledge of these proposed homebrew SD card cartridges. Or maybe AtGames not even make hardware at all by forking 2600.emu to be an officially licensed Atari emulator for Android that has original releases as well as homebrews as in app purchases. That way they could just constantly update the emulator, the library, GUI, etc. while paying for the licenses of the games through in app purchases. In other words, it could be like a better version of Atari Greatest Hits ReMaster(which has 100,000 to 500,000 downloads) that has a store for more games kind of like how you can buy more tables in Pinball Arcade.

 

Yes I see that as an open system too.

 

And I'm with you on the emu being improved, but not the app purchases model. Think it would be cooler to see Atari market tiny cartridges instead.

 

imo that's a more tangible retro experience with physicial media like bitd; I like that it doesn't go online.

[Mr SQL]

Since programmers will need to program for the lcd then does that mean they won't be able to take advantage of (or develop) new hardware tricks?

 

 

And how about release candidate testing? They now have to test on this hardware, and original VCS, and perhaps Emulator Stella. How will they handle it when (it seems like) every year the emulation model is being changed in these flashbacks?

 

I hesitantly and reluctantly concede that these have the potential to eliminate original 1977-designed hardware. People just don't want to mess with the old material as much. Of course there are diehards and collectors and nostalgia-nuts out there that would have nothing else. But by and large, the buying public isn't going give a rat's ass.

 

Coming from inside the industry and observing how things like this transpire. I gotta say, again and again, I don't like it.

 

And if they fix the emulator next year it won't fix any of these problems - flooding the market with millions of portable consoles with the current emu and then improving it or better yet switching to Stella won't help a bit going forward because we'll still have to support this model as the lcd.

 

But despite all these issues many more people will be able to enjoy playing Atari games which is pretty awesome

[Schizophretard]

 

Yes I see that as an open system too.

 

And I'm with you on the emu being improved, but not the app purchases model. Think it would be cooler to see Atari market tiny cartridges instead.

 

imo that's a more tangible retro experience with physicial media like bitd; I like that it doesn't go online.

 

But Atari wouldn't market tiny cartridges instead. Maybe compilation carts like they have with the DS but on the Switch this time but definitely not on the Atari Flashback Portable.

[BillLoguidice]

We have considered compilation cartridges and the like, but it's difficult to get retailers to carry anything beyond the main system.

[Mr SQL]

Makes sense, perhaps once the unit gains traction we may see a tiny compilation cart with another 60 Atari games on it and another supergame like Frogger. Would give the ebay guy some competition; maybe Atari can use his example to persuade retailers.

[BillLoguidice]

Makes sense, perhaps once the unit gains traction we may see a tiny compilation cart with another 60 Atari games on it and another supergame like Frogger. Would give the ebay guy some competition; maybe Atari can use his example to persuade retailers.

 

The other issue is that we really do put all of the available games on each year, so there really aren't any more to put on compilations carts even if they were a viable option. The onboard number will increase dramatically next year, and again, that will be all of the games we'll have available.

[Mr SQL]

Anyone tested the bank switching schemes out yet?

 

I'm still trying to get CBS RAM to initialize and am not certain the issue is with the emu, it might be Harmony and Stella allowing extra functionality that's not part of the format - this happened before with the SuperCharger format not working on an actual SuperCharger.

[Disco Scottie]

I'd be happy to recommend Stella to AtGames, but it can't be something they would just take and use. As much as people may criticize AtGames, they do make a real effort to do everything above board and squeeze every bit of performance/features they can in the dev time between when each new release gets locked down. They'd have to license something like Stella from the creator or creators and said creator or creators would have to have full rights free and clear, or AtGames would also have to license from them as well. There can't be any unknowns in something for commercial use like this. In any case, if anyone has any suggestions in that regard, I'd be happy to listen and pass it on.

I thought Stella was open source and absolutely free for any manufacturer to modify and use. Is that not correct?