The quest for Boing! :(

[robcatron]

Greetings all,

 

It's been a while since I have posted (and primarily then in the Atari 8-bit forums), but I have researched and researched (primarily these forums) the game Boing! to no avail and am frustrated.

 

First a little backstory. I've been getting back into playing with and collecting for my A2600 collection again (have a fairly extensive collection). My extensive collection has been boxed up for a couple of years during a transitional time.

 

One of my favorite games of all time was Boing! by First Star.

 

I have a Xonox style Boing, and have had it for some time (at least 4 years I'd say).. When I try and play it on any of my systems, it rolls. I have several systems, but for now I have out my nice Vadar 4 switch, my Colecovision with A2600 Expansion and Atari 2600 Jr. (all NTSC of course)

 

I have connected all of my systems to my Toshiba 55" LCD LED TV that I have had for about 4 years now and have used as my primary display during that time. For the Atari's, I use the RF to Coax adapters, and use a 3 to one switch box to select each system. Last night, I am happy to report that I successfully performed my first Composite A/V mod (the Atari 2600 Jr and it is so great).

 

So, now, back to Boing! I just couldn't fathom that I had a PAL cartridge, but it rolls on all of my systems (and I pride myself on the systems that I have - they are in great shape).

 

I only own one PAL cart - Rampage -- the rest of my large collection is all NTSC and, though I am just dragging them out and unboxing from storage, all seem to play just as remembered them playing on my 55" (again on RF or the new Composite mod).

 

I can't exactly remember, but I know at one time, I played Boing! (like I said it is one of my favs). Chalking up to bad memory, and the fact that I have sold parts of my collection over the years, I deduced that I must have sold my NTSC Boing that I played and must have for some reason had a PAL copy. So two weeks ago, I went to eBay and bought a non-Xonox style that was claimed to be NTSC (though sold as untested). Got it, and guess what - exact same roll on all systems and my TV.

 

Returned it and order another copy from a trusted seller on eBay (one that is selling off a lot of dupes from their collection now). It is a Xonox style. Received it Monday and was very disappointed that it too rolls (again, just like the two that I had already tried). I have attached a some screen shots of the roll I am getting from all three Boings I have tried. When it rolls, there is no sound by the way. I hadn't mentioned anything to the seller as of yesterday becasue I had received a Composite mod kit and wanted to try it with the Boing(s) before I said anything. With the composite modded JR, I get NO VIDEO (on either of the Boings I have) but I do get sound. I have a second mod kit that I am going to install on my Vader this weekend to see if it does the same thing, but I suspect the result will be the same.

 

What the heck is going on? Am I truly stuck with PAL Boings?! Is there just something about Boing that perhaps causes it to operate on a weaker signal of some sort that my TV really won't pick up on? I tend to think that they are PALs. I read in these forums were the PAL copies are more common.

 

Thoughts? Tips? Does my quest still continue?

 

Thank you all!

Rob

[+bcombee]

How about getting a Harmony cart and trying the NTSC and PAL dumps on Boing and see what matches your observed behavior?

[+SpiceWare]

The problem for Boing is not that it's PAL but that it's outputting too few scanlines, 251 instead of the expected 262:

 

 

The old analog TVs are far more tolerant of out-of-spec frame rates than the newer digital TVs. Digital Press has a nice Atari scanline listing where you can see how much variety there is.

 

 

[robcatron]

The problem for Boing is not that it's PAL but that it's outputting too few scanlines, 251 instead of the expected 262:

 

Screen Shot 2017-01-25 at 1.33.56 PM.png

 

The old analog TVs are far more tolerant of out-of-spec frame rates than the newer digital TVs. Digital Press has a nice Atari scanline listing where you can see how much variety there is.

 

 

 

That could be it. I used to have a 25" analog / CRT TV that I played my retro systems on (but haven't had it for quite a few years).

 

I thought I had played it on my large screen, but time flies, I couldn't guarantee that my memory is correct

 

Anyone else unable to play Boing on a modern LCD TV?

[mojoatomic]

You could wash the signal through an old VCR/DVD player and use the a/v outs it you have one lying around.

[robcatron]

You could wash the signal through an old VCR/DVD player and use the a/v outs it you have one lying around.

 

I may have an old VCR laying around here somewhere. I'll give it a try

[+sramirez2008]

My Boing! Xonox works on both of my (20" CRT and 32" LCD) TV's.

 

[robcatron]

My Boing! Xonox works on both of my (20" CRT and 32" LCD) TV's.

 

Samsung HD TV.JPG Boing Xonox Cart.JPG

 

That's just it. It can't believe that Boing would be my only cart that gives me issues. I swear I lean towards PAL. If the had a Harmony cart as mentioned earlier that would decide it

[+SpiceWare]

 

That's just it. It can't believe that Boing would be my only cart that gives me issues. I swear I lean towards PAL. If the had a Harmony cart as mentioned earlier that would decide it

 

 

Just because his TV supported Boing doesn't mean yours will. Boing's scan line count is 4.2% out of spec. Some HDTVs are more tolerant of the out-of-spec signals than others. My HDTV won't even show a picture from my 2600, while slightly newer consoles like my 7800 and Genesis work but only in B&W.

 

This is one of the many issues with using the Atari on a newer TV. Another common problem is they'll treat the signal as 480i, even though it's really 240p. Depending on the set that'll either cause flickered objects to disappear, or appear to be striped. I show an example of what my sister's TV does to Stay Frosty, which uses flicker to draw the fireballs, in reply 13 of the topic 2600 games that dont work with HDTV's NTSC.

[+sramirez2008]

I will admit that my 32" LCD has a few years on it. Guess its a keeper.

[+SpiceWare]

Another common problem with modern displays is input lag. They can make games unplayable, like Zoyx found discovered with Stay Frosty 2. He solved that (reply #136) by using a different display.

[robcatron]

 

 

Just because his TV supported Boing doesn't mean yours will. Boing's scan line count is 4.2% out of spec. Some HDTVs are more tolerant of the out-of-spec signals than others. My HDTV won't even show a picture from my 2600, while slightly newer consoles like my 7800 and Genesis work but only in B&W.

 

This is one of the many issues with using the Atari on a newer TV. Another common problem is they'll treat the signal as 480i, even though it's really 240p. Depending on the set that'll either cause flickered objects to disappear, or appear to be striped. I show an example of what my sister's TV does to Stay Frosty, which uses flicker to draw the fireballs, in reply 13 of the topic 2600 games that dont work with HDTV's NTSC.

 

Thanks. I checked that thread out. Still seems that roll wasn't an issue with the games, or at least on that thread. The night before I installed my Composite mod, I also tried the game on an older 32" Emerson LCD TV and both Boings rolled (same grey/black roll with no sound). I haven't tried that TV again with the composite modded Jr that I have though.

 

I'll dig more into it this weekend, plus I'll have another 2600 modded.

 

Thanks!

[robcatron]

I finished my composite A/V mod on my 4 switch (vader) unit last night and had the same results with both of my Boings - sound but no visual. I have a friend that is going to give me his 32" CRT TV. I'm going to try it out on that one.

 

I still think they are PAL. I unpacked a large part of my collection last night, and couldn't find any game that exhibited the same issues on my 55" Toshiba. The Supercharger (with Stella Got a New Brain CD) lost video signal sometimes while the the games loaded (say, approximately after about the fourth load tone), but as soon as the tones stopped and the game loaded the game came on and played great (man, I forgot how fun the Starpath Official Frogger and Rabbit Transit are!)

[+Propane13]

I still think they are PAL.

 

I think comparing to other NTSC cartridges isn't going to be of much value, as most of them are closer to spec, and almost all have even scanlines. Boing has 2 things going against it, which is the low scanline count plus an odd in the count instead of even. A better comparison would be against another similarly badly-spec'd ROM loaded up on the Supercharger. Someone here should know a good comparison that's similar.

[+Propane13]

I found this:

http://www.digitpress.com/library/techdocs/vcs_scanlines.htm

 

Tax Avoiders is also listed at 251.

Music Machine and Xevious are at 249.

Harem is 247 (in-game)

Artillery Duel is 240-241

 

I know that some of those are rare, but I wonder if you could load them via supercharger and see how they look?

[robcatron]

I found this:

http://www.digitpress.com/library/techdocs/vcs_scanlines.htm

 

Tax Avoiders is also listed at 251.

Music Machine and Xevious are at 249.

Harem is 247 (in-game)

Artillery Duel is 240-241

 

I know that some of those are rare, but I wonder if you could load them via supercharger and see how they look?

 

Of those, I know I have Artillery Duel (maybe Tax Avoiders). Thanks, I'll see what happens.

[+Psionic]

On 1/27/2017 at 1:25 PM, robcatron said:

 

Of those, I know I have Artillery Duel (maybe Tax Avoiders). Thanks, I'll see what happens.

 

Did you ever get to the bottom of this?