Andromeda Stardust Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Wonder if this could affect z3k?Not if he shows off the system running real carts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StopDrop&Retro Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 From their Facebook and Instragram pages. Judging the specs, this is just one of those cheap ARM boxes you can order from Alibaba with adapters for the various controller types. Thanks but no thanks. Those cheap Alibaba boxes don't run in Linux. If they're being honest with that then this could be interesting. Linux gives very little lag. It just seems to be a platform a lot of businesses avoid because when you're selling software an open platform works against you. Not to say I'm letting my guard down. All this time they're hyping their device they never released their specs but apparently it's all printed on a sheet at their booth? It doesn't make sense. Sure they do. They caught on to the Linux thing a while ago to push their more expensive Kodi boxes. um.. what? I don't think we're talking about the same thing because your argument doesn't follow. Why do I get the feeling that the cable on the PC Engine board in that photo is supposed to plug in to the pins on this SBC board??? http://www.boardcon.com/EM3288_SBC/ They seem to be a huge step up from the RetroVGS goons, and have actually bought an SBC, written some software for it, and have at least one prototype interface board (that may or may not work). There's nothing that seems to be "rocket science" in what they're trying to do, it's just a question of how far along they are, can they finish it all off, how much money do they want to charge for it, and do enough people care? Oh ... and then, do folks have faith that it would actually be built solidly-enough to not self-destruct in 6-months? Nice find! If this is all true then I have no problem with them doing it, I just wish they were more open and honest and less pretentious. Their "patent pending" hybrid technology would be misleading, sure, but at least the real hardware is there. It could be something nice if they get it right, even though I can imagine the separate modules being overpriced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaNaix Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 (edited) um.. what? I don't think we're talking about the same thing because your argument doesn't follow. You can get any number of ARM-based Kodi boxes that will run Linux, many of them using the exact same RK3288 chip, for around $100-$150 USD. That's generally considered a high-end box for these companies. They market (and price) them advertising that Linux is better better for Kodi than Android. Some models can be had for well under $100 USD, with the same specs as Retroblox. It's just as easy to install and run RetroArch on these boxes as anything else. They seem to have their own fronted but I'm sure these guys didn't code emulators for all those systems they claim to be running. I suspect they'll be a shitstorm as usual once it's released and the code is analyzed. Edited February 5, 2017 by xiaNaix 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercylon Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Are we going to have yet another system that is sold commercially but uses open source emulators without permission? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 More "wait for the Kickstarter" dancing and shuffling. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 They really have set the bar here. Either they're shady as all get out, or they're really big idiots when it comes to PR throwing what they have out there, then stuffing their fingers in the ears and going NANANA when people ask basic honest questions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 They really have set the bar here. Either they're shady as all get out, or they're really big idiots when it comes to PR throwing what they have out there, then stuffing their fingers in the ears and going NANANA when people ask basic honest questions. Yup. This weekend was their big chance to put their best foot forward. Instead, it's looking for all the world like we're getting Coleco Chameleon 2.0z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 I'm skeptical too, but I don't see shady stuff at https://www.facebook.com/retroblox/ Some detail about it direct play (not emulation) of cartridges, support of NEC stuff, "pleading the fifth" on Saturn (which means it's not happening). Someone says "it will support all PlayStation but not the 4," to which Retroblox says "we officially support PlayStation 1," which is totally reasonable. I'm thinking it's legit ... but who knows about price and performance. And I still haven't seen anything that a Pi or cheap PC can't do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 I'm skeptical too, but I don't see shady stuff at https://www.facebook.com/retroblox/ Some detail about it direct play (not emulation) of cartridges, support of NEC stuff, "pleading the fifth" on Saturn (which means it's not happening). Someone says "it will support all PlayStation but not the 4," to which Retroblox says "we officially support PlayStation 1," which is totally reasonable. I'm thinking it's legit ... but who knows about price and performance. And I still haven't seen anything that a Pi or cheap PC can't do. Not shady per se, at least not yet, but it's very concerning that they don't want to commit to specs or supported systems yet. That's really something that should be settled at this point. It makes me think that the effort is sincere, but the team behind it is not prepared for the logistics of full-scale production, to say nothing of long-term support. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 IMG_4851.PNG More "wait for the Kickstarter" dancing and shuffling. More shitfuckery? Looking that way. Despite my near prodigal imagination, I can't picture them failing as hard as RVGS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoofu Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Probably used for their OS? who knows? Not exactly sure why it's there? We didn't gave them any demo Would like to know why it's used there, it is very odd But again, NONE of our games are going to be bundled with this in ANY WAYS Maybe because of Gamester81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philyso Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Not shady per se, at least not yet, but it's very concerning that they don't want to commit to specs or supported systems yet. That's really something that should be settled at this point. It makes me think that the effort is sincere, but the team behind it is not prepared for the logistics of full-scale production, to say nothing of long-term support.More like they are still in the process of looking at which open-source emulators they can legally use or preparing licensing deals with developers. Someone should ask them what emulators they are using in their demo and how they got permission to include these homebrew games. Some detail about it direct play (not emulation) of cartridges,I think their plan is to make emulators have direct access to cartridge hardware (instead of plain ROM dumps made before running emulators like retron5 and retrofreak do). That's probably what they call 'hybrid emulation' (including real-time access to controllers from emulation instead of frame-buffered input processing that classic emulation does). There are many questions regarding emulation on this device, I found this thread on their forum to pretty much summarize my concerns: http://retroblox.com/forums/topic/so-software/ Unfortunately, it does not seem they are quite in the mood of answering technical questions for some reason and only stand to usual 'marketing' speech. Edited February 6, 2017 by philyso 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoofu Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Rom dumping is generally used because roms generally have less then 50 megs for carts and it more tricky making hardware base solutions that are cheap and reliable while emulating the system at the same time especially since some Cart based games have special chips like co processors CD base games generally don't have to dump do to the CD being a rom iso file already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Rom dumping is generally used because roms generally have less then 50 megs for carts and it more tricky making hardware base solutions that are cheap and reliable while emulating the system at the same time especially since some Cart based games have special chips like co processors CD base games generally don't have to dump do to the CD being a rom iso file already For most systems, dumping games is a no brainer, however dumping carts like NES is a nightmare why they use a lookup table to detect the cart in order to determine how to dump it. Flash carts will never, ever work on such a device. Moreover homebrews that employ exotic mappers, or even homebrews and repros with normal mappers that don't turn up a match in the database 99% of the time will not work. Will GT-ROM or other homebrew flash mappers ever get supported by devices like Retron5 or Retro Freak? I'm skeptical. Also custom helper chips such as the ARM on Atari melody boards, or SNES expansion chips may be difficult to emulate. Melody/DPC+ support is still non-existent on Raspberry Pi, Wii, Xbox, PSP, or virtually any embedded system that is not an x86 Win/Mac/Linux PC. If future SNES development lends itself to helper chips like an ARM or something else in the cart, these future games will likely not work. Even vintage stuff like Super Game Boy easily runs on the analog clone chips such as Super Retro Trio, but to my knowledge there is no way to dump the Game Boy carts through an SNES emu-dumper. Ditto for Game Boy accessories such as the Game Boy Camera will never work with these emu clones either. The only way to get 100% reliable access to all games including flash cartridges is to have realtime bus level access. I'm not saying it isn't possible with an ARM or embedded solution but it seems unlikely that any of the existing emulator codebases will be of benefit since none of them provide realtime bus level access. It seems probable that as FPGA implementations become cheaper and more ubiquitous in the future, we will see more hardware level clones as opposed to software emu-dumpers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Not going to comment on the physical media exclusives question, since Retroblox wasn't the one who brought it up. However, we have yet ANOTHER "wait for the kickstarter" deflection. My gut feeling is that this team has a plan that works, on paper, but they haven't finalized exactly what their unit cost is going to be, so they're unprepared to say what bundle prices could be, etc. They're likely basing everything on a best-case scenario, not factoring in potential issues that could crop up during fabrication and manufacture. The troubling part about this is that they swear the system will be "affordable", but they'r really in no position to say that without at least providing some context as to what "affordable" is. It might wind up being $400, and they could turn around and say "Well, it's still a deal compared to buying a TurboGrafx, Retron 5, and Sega Saturn separately!" And lest you think I'm being facetious, Hyperkin said some very similar things prior to the release of the Retron 5. And that's not even getting into the whoppers told by some people who never even had a product to ship. I said on Friday, this convention would decide the path that Retroblox was taking. Now it's pretty clear they're taking the Mike Kennedy route and assuming we're too stupid to ask reasonable questions, and all they need is a sizzle reel and some Final Fight CD to get our money. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Agreed. You know what, if it wasn't for the CD reading capability, as of right now due to their public display and responses they're making a helpful case to invest in a RetroFreak11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PikoInteractive Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) Just noticed the thread. There is already a patent that covers Dumping a cart and playing it through emulator in one system. And is awarded to Hyperkin's CEO. I'll post it when I find it.Actually Remembered it wasn't under the CEO but under some other guy which I think is the developer of both Retron 5 and RetroFreak Click Here. Some info I thought was interesting: "[0081] 6. A game cartridge is easily digitally distinguishable from no cartridge. In step 210 the FPGA, likely in conjunction with the SOC's CPU, is used to check for the presence of a game cartridge. [0082] 7. A program loop, 212, is created to check all slots for the presence of cartridges. [0083] 8. Once at least one cartridge is found, then in 214 the ROM contents of the cartridge are read into RAM. If there is more than one cartridge inserted then one can be selected by the user. From here the content can be accessed faster than the relatively slower ROM used in typical (especially older) game consoles. [0084] 9. In step 218 a custom GUI is loaded from storage media into RAM and output displayed on the output display device, typically a TV or monitor perhaps using an HDMI output such as 136 shown in FIG. 1 and controlled using one of the Joypad input methods. The interface is designed to assist the user to make various choices about the game before launching. For example whether to activate any cheats, any graphical filters to improve game appearance whether to speed up (overclock) or slow down a game etc. [0085] 10. In step 218 A `Software emulator` to translate the original code and data into appropriate code and data for the new chipset is also loaded into RAM to a separate memory location. [0086] 11. In step 220 the Emulator is launched by passing its start address to the program counter, any configuration options entered by the user into the GUI are passed to this section of code. [0087] 12. The external Joypads in step 222, are read continuously during play and the values passed to the emulator. Output from the emulator is displayed on the Screen in step 224. Should the user press an assigned button(s) on the console or joypad button the user is taken back to the GUI in steps 226 and 228 where they are given the option to Save the RAM contents to Mass Storage device, probably SD card so the game can be loaded at a later date after the machine has been switched off. " Edited February 7, 2017 by PikoInteractive 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoofu Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Alice Corporation Pty. Ltd. v. CLS Bank International, pretty much killed patents such as that being used http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/alice-corporation-pty-ltd-v-cls-bank-international/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philyso Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) @PikoInteractive: as already said earlier, 'Hybrid emulation' is likely NOT related to ROM dumping but rather real-time cartridge access from emulation software, which has never be done before AFAIK. At least, that's what I understand from their press release document. As explained by @Kosmic Stardust, it should *theoretically* make emulation of games that have more than just a ROM chip on-board easier, which includes games with mappers, banking mechanisms, copy-protection hardware, additional chips, etc... This would also make emulation of SNES games that use DSPs, co-processors, etc... more accurate AND faster since it would not need the emulator to emulate the cartridge hardware as it usually does with plain ROM dump. The problem I see with this 'concept' is that those old cartridge interface have hard limitations in regard to how fast data can be read/written and this is much slower than modern system RAM access (where the ROM dump is usually copied) so I imagine this could massively slowdown software emulation if it has to wait for FPGA to perform a single read/write to the cartridge board every time CPU emulation needs to simulate a memory access. Edited February 7, 2017 by philyso 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmer Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) Just noticed the thread. There is already a patent that covers Dumping a cart and playing it through emulator in one system. And is awarded to Hyperkin's CEO. I'll post it when I find it. Ignoring enoofu's point that the patent may be invalid ... the patent mentions using an FPGA to interface to the cartridge. Well, the Rockchip SBC that I linked to earlier doesn't seem to have an FPGA on board, and the picture of the TurboGrafx adapter-board PCB looked like there was no FPGA there either ... just some level-shifters. Most modern ARM SoCs (like the RK3288) have plenty of runtime-configurable I/O pins, so perhaps the RetroBlox guys are just planning on some good old-fashioned bit-twiddling of port settings & values to read data from the cartridges. That could keep one of the ARM cores busy. Aren't most software-emulators single-threaded anyway (at least for the CPU emulation that's reading the cartridge port)? The problem I see with this 'concept' is that those old cartridge interface have hard limitations in regard to how fast data can be read/written and this is much slower than modern system RAM access (where the ROM dump is usually copied) so I imagine this could massively slowdown software emulation if it has to wait for FPGA to perform a single read/write to the cartridge board every time CPU emulation needs to simulate a memory access. This would be my worry, whether they're using either the CPU or an FPGA to read data from the cartridge. The latency would be 1000s of cycles. Decoupling fast CPUs from slow memory has been one of the big reasons that we've got such fast computers these days. I'd want to actually see this scheme running in action, on all of their supported platforms, as a proof-of-concept, before throwing money at a KickStarter. It was notable, and troubling, that they didn't seem to show any attached-cartridges at last weekend's show. Edited February 7, 2017 by elmer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I'd want to actually see this scheme running in action, on all of their supported platforms, as a proof-of-concept, before throwing money at a KickStarter. It was notable, and troubling, that they didn't seem to show any attached-cartridges at last weekend's show. One crucial detail, we absolutely need to see an uncut video showing a cartridge being loaded into the slot and powered on. If there is any type of loading screen or any "start cart" screen with a screenshot and title, that is a dead giveaway that it is an emu+dumper and will absolutely not work with flash carts, custom homebrew carts, or specialty hardware such as Game Boy Camera or Super Game Boy. Even if it's just a dumper/emulator, it may have some utility for cart dumping or playing ISOs / CDs. I would still probably buy one just to own a Retron like device with a CD drive, if the emulation is solid and it indeed supports everything through PS1/Saturn. 90s CD consoles have a proven highly unreliable track record, and I do have a nice minty copy of Star Parodier (PCe-CD) that I can't play... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaNaix Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 From their forums. Also – to squash any rumors about using open source emulators. Hybrid Emulation requires emulators to function at a much lower level than the ones you can simply download for your PC or RetroPie / RetroArch rig. RetroBlox’s proprietary LibRBX, RBXOS, and Richter UI environment are built from the ground up in Linux so that we can access bus-level architecture and I/O from cartridge interfaces and controllers directly via high level emulation on the RK3288. This would not be able to be accomplished on android or if we used “stolen” emulators. While we have been granted permission from a number of top emulator developers to use their open source-licensed emulators with this project as of almost a year ago, the reality is that most of them are not suitable to run under Hybrid Emulation out of the box and required full re-writes. The people doing the emulation work include several of our team members who are not contributors to the open source community but work on low level hardware for console manufacturers professionally. These guys are so full of shit. lol 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercylon Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 I suspect getting getting Saturn emulation working well would be tall order (unless the state of things have changed.... have not kept up with recent efforts). Even if it's just a dumper/emulator, it may have some utility for cart dumping or playing ISOs / CDs. I would still probably buy one just to own a Retron like device with a CD drive, if the emulation is solid and it indeed supports everything through PS1/Saturn. 90s CD consoles have a proven highly unreliable track record, and I do have a nice minty copy of Star Parodier (PCe-CD) that I can't play... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godslabrat Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Also from the forums: BACK TO FORUM LIST › COMMUNITY › GENERAL Tagged: consoles, N64 This topic contains 2 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by 23 hours, 55 minutes ago. Viewing 3 posts - 1 through 3 (of 3 total) AUTHOR POSTS 2017-02-02 at 2:59 PM#5436 Profile photo of Excalibur Excalibur 16-bit I just heard about this new console, what consoles will be supported? Any chance we finally have N64 be a supported console, none of the other multi-system consoles support it? 2017-02-03 at 10:58 AM#5600 Profile photo of fontinele fontinele 16-bit I would like to know as well. Would like to see the top ones like the Genesis, SNES, NES, Master System, Game Gear, N64, PSX, etc.. But i would like to see some usually forgotten gems, like the 3DO, Amiga, MSX, etc… I dont know if we will have some full software emulators, if yes, some arcade and DOS emulators would be awesome. 2017-02-06 at 4:18 PM#5799 Profile photo of RetroBlox RetroBlox Admin N64 is very technically doable today on RetroBlox’s RK3288 processor, but Nintendo (correctly) filed many, many patents for the system, some as recently as 2001, so it’s not something we’re targeting at this moment in time. The great thing about having a modular system is that we are always capable of supporting additional consoles in the future without replacing hardware, so you can bet we will be there first when a legal opportunity to support N64 presents itself. We’ll put out an announcement in our Tuesday blog post summarizing in greater detail the packages and options that will be available with the Kickstarter – but here’s the “currently-announced” lineup in detail: Modules – NES – SNES / SFC (Super Gameboy will work fine for play only – but you won’t be able to back up GB games individually to Richter) – Genesis / Mega Drive (J) / Mega Drive (E) / 32x / SMS support via Power Base Converter – Atari 2600 (7800 is currently not confirmed for support, but will be vetted and confirmed before KS in April) – PC-Engine / TurboGrafx-16 / SuperGrafx Optical Disc Systems (these can be played without any module inserted) – PSX (all regions) – Sega CD / 32X CD / Mega CD (J and E) – PC-Engine CD / Super CD-ROM / Arcade CD-ROM / TurboGrafx-CD Additionally, we will be announcing support for at least 2 (possibly 3) more major CD systems before the kickstarter launch. This reply was modified 14 hours, 54 minutes ago by . Viewing 3 posts - 1 through 3 (of 3 total) http://retroblox.com/forums/topic/what-consoles-will-be-supported/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 It would be neat to see a 3-way split screen with Retroblox vs Retropie emulation vs the real thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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