Plus/4--worth picking up?

[JamesD]

According to what I've read, Commodore had previously (late 70's) designed the 6560 chip and were looking to improve it to get 40 columns. Due to time constraints and that fast enough SRAM was too expensive, they released the VIC-20 with the original 6560, and developed a PAL version 6561 which got quite delayed meaning the same computer released in Japan in the fall of 1980, didn't get to Europe until very late 1981 or even early 1982.

 

It appears to me that the VIC-20 was superior to the ZX-81/TS-1000 in all categories except number of characters per line and retail price. You might be right that the C116 was aimed to become the cheapest computer on the market, let it compete against any other brand (including the C64, obviously) but if the project was initiated early 1983, the ZX-81 was quickly becoming a non-threat anyway. I've got this TED Developer prototype board that is stamped August 1983. Unfortunately it doesn't work and at least one or two chips are missing, but supposedly it should represent an early incarnation of the C116 so software made with the board should run on the production model, if it had not been delayed and suffered feature creep so it took well into 1984 before it was ready to go into mass production.

16K of DRAM was $65-$100 retail in a 1979 issue of BYTE.

256 bytes of SRAM was $10 in the same issue. I couldn't even find a 1K chip listed let alone 2K or more.

A 32K SRAM board was almost $800. That's more than a 32K PET.

 

A TRS-80 Model I designed in 1975 was superior to the ZX/TS in every way but price.

If the VIC had come with a membrane keyboard, I'm not sure the ZX-80 would have succeeded.

The price difference would have been minimal and as you say, other than characters per line, the VIC is superior in every way.

 

I think the C116 was the line in the sand.

Yeah, you might build something for $5 less, but it won't be as good. The Speccy doesn't even have a space bar or power switch.

TED machines were some of the more powerful machines from the time in spite of price, so it does make sense.

The C116 might have been the reason for the intro of the Spectrum+.

They did sell a combined million TED machines and it was only discontinued to free up production for the C64.

 

Plus/4 World lists over 4872 items under games. I'm sure there are duplicates, plenty of garbage titles, and BASIC ports you'll find on every machine like Hunt The Wumpus.

But that still leaves a decent sized game library.

 

[JamesD]

...

That's pretty much the argument i've heard when asking around yes, that and the larger case perhaps helping with airflow; i suspect that the case leaves a bit more room for heat sinks on the most fragile parts as well?

...

I think the Plus/4 case has more vents, and there is enough room for heat sinks.

I would try to get heatsinks with fins across the chip to improve airflow to the vents.

[carlsson]

The C64 Wiki claims about 51,000 units of the Commodore 116 were manufactured, of which 44,000 were sold in Germany. I am not sure about the RRP, as the article mentions both 199 DM (equivalent to about 70 USD) and £99 (130 USD) at the time. It seems odd to me if the very same computer would cost twice as much in the UK as in Germany at launch. A few magazine references may be in order to validate or invalidate those sums. If it indeed sold for 200 DM ~= 70 USD, it wasn't that far from the intended 50 USD price mark.

[JamesD]

The million number comes from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_16

[carlsson]

Yeah, all models combined I'm sure they reached a million. Though the bigger models C16 and in particular Plus/4 were not competing on price alone against the Sinclairs. Perhaps against the Amstrads, which though offered combo deals with monitor, tape recorder or floppy drive.

 

So 1 million, of which the C16 and C116 contributed 60% of the total volume. The other reference said about 50,000 C116 were made, which leaves 550,000 of the C16 and 400,000 of the Plus/4, give or take.

[SSG]

I bought one. Didn't worked. Never bought another so far.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[JamesD]

Yeah, all models combined I'm sure they reached a million. Though the bigger models C16 and in particular Plus/4 were not competing on price alone against the Sinclairs. Perhaps against the Amstrads, which though offered combo deals with monitor, tape recorder or floppy drive.

 

So 1 million, of which the C16 and C116 contributed 60% of the total volume. The other reference said about 50,000 C116 were made, which leaves 550,000 of the C16 and 400,000 of the Plus/4, give or take.

That's if people aren't guessing on the numbers.. if they aren't, 1 million machines in one year is hardly a failure.

If the machine is produced for 5 years, that puts it into the upper group as far as sales go.

It's just not equal to C64 numbers, which are about double other machines.

 

[RobertB]

JamesD wrote:

 

> Except the 128 mode is completely separate and it's not as good for games.

 

Heh, C65 or the future Mega65.

 

Truly,

Robert Bernardo

June 10-11 Pacific Commodore Expo NW -

http://www.portcommodore.com/pacommex

July 29-30 Commodore Vegas Expo v13 -

http://www.portcommodore.com/commvex

[RobertB]

JamesD wrote:

 

> The machine (C128) has been around for over 30 years and you pointed out a total of 1 demo and 2 games.

 

See

 

http://www.commodore128.net/index.php?topic=1008.0

 

Not counting the homebrews,

Robert Bernardo

June 10-11 Pacific Commodore Expo NW -

http://www.portcommodore.com/pacommex

July 29-30 Commodore Vegas Expo v13 -

http://www.portcommodore.com/commvex

[JamesD]

JamesD wrote:

 

 

> The machine (C128) has been around for over 30 years and you pointed out a total of 1 demo and 2 games.

 

See

 

 

http://www.commodore128.net/index.php?topic=1008.0

 

Not counting the homebrews,

From that link:

** Programs that are enhanced when run on a Commodore 128 in C64 Mode **

-----------------------------------

1581 Toolkit

Alleykat

Elite 128 (enhanced version of commercial release)

Flight Simulator II (With patch 20%-25% frame rate increase)

Gunship

HyperLink 2.5e

Intensity

Maverick

Morpheus

Novaterm

Paradroid Turbo

Project Stealth Fighter

Qix!

Stealth Mission

Test Drive II

Uridium Plus

Wizardry 1,2,3,5

That's 20 out of thousands.

 

[JamesD]

Here is the work in progress FPGA TED stuff:
https://hackaday.io/project/11460-fpgated

[JamesD]

That "horrible" TED music. The first 30 tracks are without a SID card, the rest use a sid card.

[JamesD]

A preview of an Arkanoid game was part of a demo. It looks really good.

[JamesD]

C16 64K RAM upgrade
http://oldcomputer.info/hacks/c16_64k/index.htm

C16 ROM upgrade.(add app ROMs like +4)
http://mikenaberezny.com/hardware/projects/c16-rom-expansion/

With those upgrades, a C16 has everything a Plus/4 does except the 6551 ACIA

[eightbit]

I always considered the C16 and Plus/4 more "waste of time" computers. The Vic-20 has heart and soul (and a big library of carts to collect) and is an amazing computer with especially what they accomplished inside of 3.5KB. The C64...well we all know what a legend it is. But the C16 and Plus/4 were just Commodore "fillers" in my eyes. Nothing to write home about and nothing positive that I can personally remember of them. I guess the diehard Commodore computer collector would have to have them in the collection, but for me as someone who likes the computer for good software and games, the Vic and the C64 (and Amiga) complete me on the Commodore side of things.

[Grimakis]

I wouldn't bother unless it's really cheap.

[JamesD]

I always considered the C16 and Plus/4 more "waste of time" computers. The Vic-20 has heart and soul (and a big library of carts to collect) and is an amazing computer with especially what they accomplished inside of 3.5KB. The C64...well we all know what a legend it is. But the C16 and Plus/4 were just Commodore "fillers" in my eyes. Nothing to write home about and nothing positive that I can personally remember of them. I guess the diehard Commodore computer collector would have to have them in the collection, but for me as someone who likes the computer for good software and games, the Vic and the C64 (and Amiga) complete me on the Commodore side of things.

Have you actually spent any time using one though?

 

Heart and soul? That's called a logical fallacy, trying to elicit an emotional response.

As for facts...

The Plus/4 doesn't have many carts. If you are someone that wants to show off shelves of carts so you can say "look at all these carts... I've collected every cart for the machine"... the Plus/4 definitely isn't for you. If you were to say that with the Plus/4 you'd have a total of under 20 carts where the VIC has 300+..

There are a lot more hardware add ons for the VIC, but that's largely due to the lack of included hardware to begin with.

If you want to experience what it was like reading books and typing in programs from magazines from back in the day, the VIC has more source material available.

However, I object to comments like it's a complete waste of time.

I think the Plus/4 is far better than the VIC if you want to program. But I guess most people don't.

[Grimakis]

Have you actually spent any time using one though?

 

Heart and soul? That's called a logical fallacy, trying to elicit an emotional response.

As for facts...

The Plus/4 doesn't have many carts. If you are someone that wants to show off shelves of carts so you can say "look at all these carts... I've collected every cart for the machine"... the Plus/4 definitely isn't for you. If you were to say that with the Plus/4 you'd have a total of under 20 carts where the VIC has 300+..

There are a lot more hardware add ons for the VIC, but that's largely due to the lack of included hardware to begin with.

If you want to experience what it was like reading books and typing in programs from magazines from back in the day, the VIC has more source material available.

However, I object to comments like it's a complete waste of time.

I think the Plus/4 is far better than the VIC if you want to program. But I guess most people don't.

 

And a Raspberry Pi is better still for programming. People buy and collect vintage computers for emotional reasons. There is no "practical" application in owning a Commodore 64, vs emulating it, or something else. At least not a reason that most people will be using. Unless you have important data, or processes running on a C64, there is no non-emotional reason to get one. Either you have nostalgia for it, have heard others romantic accounts, get enjoyment from using old hardware, or something else.

 

So yes, the Plus/4 is not a very popular computer, not many people have nostalgia for it. They haven't heard any romanticized accounts of using one. So to them it may be a waste of time.

 

I would not actively go after a Plus/4 unless I were trying to complete a collection that included all Commodore computers. Of course if I had the chance to buy one for $10-15 I would do it.

[eightbit]

Have you actually spent any time using one though?

 

Heart and soul? That's called a logical fallacy, trying to elicit an emotional response.

As for facts...

The Plus/4 doesn't have many carts. If you are someone that wants to show off shelves of carts so you can say "look at all these carts... I've collected every cart for the machine"... the Plus/4 definitely isn't for you. If you were to say that with the Plus/4 you'd have a total of under 20 carts where the VIC has 300+..

There are a lot more hardware add ons for the VIC, but that's largely due to the lack of included hardware to begin with.

If you want to experience what it was like reading books and typing in programs from magazines from back in the day, the VIC has more source material available.

However, I object to comments like it's a complete waste of time.

I think the Plus/4 is far better than the VIC if you want to program. But I guess most people don't.

 

 

Yes, in my eyes the Vic and C64 have much MUCH more heart and soul. Not a statement intended to "elicit an emotional response". Just my feeling bud.

 

Back in the day these computers (C16, C116, Plus/4) were indeed a waste of time for Commodore and for the end user. No wonder the Plus/4 was released in 84 and discontinued in 85 The TED chip with no hardware sprites (the Vic didn't have them either but was also released five years earlier), the sound sucked compared to the SID, the built in applications (what the thing was named after) were garbage. They changed the defacto standard joystick port to an s-video looking proprietary port that required a special adapter in order to use any normal 9-pin controller.

 

There are some good games for it:

 

http://plus4world.powweb.com/games.php?l=%&cols=&icons=

 

But not much that you will not also find on a C64 with better graphics and sound and you won't have to hunt down an odd adapter to use an Atari 2600 joystick with it

 

As for programming....umm..ok. If I were to program on a vintage Commodore machine it would either be a C64 for the enhanced sound and graphics capabilities, or a Vic-20 just to prove what can be done inside of the small memory constraint.

 

Again, just my honest opinion on the subject. I don't expect others to agree of course (especially those who are nostalgic for the computer series and grew up with them) but it is the way I and just about everyone in my area felt when these systems (C16, Plus/4) were released. Skipped them and kept using the C64 all the way up to the early 90's and I'm really glad I did

Edited March 29, 2017 by eightbit

[Casey]

The Plus/4 had a much better version of BASIC with a lot more available RAM than the 64 did. It had many more colors available. That's about it. The best of both worlds is the 128 which had all the hardware features of the 64 plus a BASIC that could easily acces them.

[carlsson]

If the TED project had turned out into the intended product and within the intended timeframe, even I would give it merit even if it would've led to an even earlier shutdown of the VIC line. The hardware was what it was, designed for a purpose (to kill the Sinclair, not to replace the C64) and market segment that Commodore may have thought they were missing out on, but the fact it took much longer than expected to make bug free, a bit of feature creep and also the price was much higher than intended were the striking blows.

 

These days, the question whether it is worth picking up is due to a combination of asking price and its state of function as previously mentioned the TED chip and also the CPU are prone to failure. It is possible that proper heat sinks will extend their life, but as long as there are no readily available supplies of replacement chips you might be buying doorstops, no matter how excellent the BASIC ROM is.

[JamesD]

Just a few points here, mostly related to the VIC.

I pointed out that a lot of the games on the VIC are also on the C64 but that doesn't seem to be an issue for people.

The fact that they are always lower resolution on the VIC doesn't seem to matter either.

Yet it's somehow and issue that a lot of the games on the Plus/4 are also on the C64.

The fact that they sometimes have better colors and faster frame rates on the Plus/4 doesn't seem to matter..
I don't have a problem with people not liking the machine, to each their own... but obvious double standards like this?

The most sales the VIC had in a year was 800,000. The Wiki claims that after the intro of the C64, VIC sales plummeted.

The TED machines sold 1 million units in year. That's as good or better than the VIC did in it's best year.
Why would Commodore opt to sell the VIC instead of the TED machines?
Most companies would kill for a million machines sold in a year, and it took the Amiga years to get that many sales.

To repeat myself for the umpteenth time, Commodore discontinued production of the TED machine to make room for C64 production ahead of the holiday season.
They didn't have the manufacturing capacity to produce both machines due to the success of the C64.
The VIC would have met the same fate as the TED machines even if Commodore opted for the VIC over the TED.
Blame the TED for the demise of the VIC all you want, the VIC was doomed due to the success of the C64.

And with the VIC's falling sales, I don't think it would have made a lot of difference..

 

Dave Haynie stated in a video that the real keyboard version of the TED was $10 more to produce than the C116.
Even at closeout price, they had to be making at least $50 per machine.
1 million machines x $50 is $50 million dollars profit. If you want to argue about that number, remember that a lot of sales were at 3 to 4 times the cost of production rather than just 2 times. So, that's probably a low figure. Does $50 million sound like a wast of time? Especially with falling VIC sales?
And before you argue the markup was only $30 on the C64... the C64 was more expensive to produce and that was years later.
Still, if you want to go there and claim the markup was only $30, that's still $30 million dollars profit.

Since only 50,000 of the C116's were sold,I don't see just releasing it. With it's lower sale price that's still at least $2.5 million in sales, but that pales compared to the C16 and Plus/4.
At least some version with a real keyboard is what people wanted.

Commodore did need to release the TED the previous year, but that would mostly be to counter falling VIC sales, and the company still had available manufacturing capacity then.

Commodore sold around 2.5 million VIC 20s total between 1980 and 1985 but the last 500,000 were probably spread over several years.. If the TED had been on the market even one more year, it's sales total would probably be 1.5 to 2 million machines. Maybe more if they could have produced extra machines in advance to make it through the holiday season the year the TED was discontinued.

[Grimakis]

Just a few points here, mostly related to the VIC.

 

I pointed out that a lot of the games on the VIC are also on the C64 but that doesn't seem to be an issue for people.

The fact that they are always lower resolution on the VIC doesn't seem to matter either.

Yet it's somehow and issue that a lot of the games on the Plus/4 are also on the C64.

The fact that they sometimes have better colors and faster frame rates on the Plus/4 doesn't seem to matter..

I don't have a problem with people not liking the machine, to each their own... but obvious double standards like this?

 

The most sales the VIC had in a year was 800,000. The Wiki claims that after the intro of the C64, VIC sales plummeted.

The TED machines sold 1 million units in year. That's as good or better than the VIC did in it's best year.

Why would Commodore opt to sell the VIC instead of the TED machines?

Most companies would kill for a million machines sold in a year, and it took the Amiga years to get that many sales.

 

To repeat myself for the umpteenth time, Commodore discontinued production of the TED machine to make room for C64 production ahead of the holiday season.

They didn't have the manufacturing capacity to produce both machines due to the success of the C64.

The VIC would have met the same fate as the TED machines even if Commodore opted for the VIC over the TED.

Blame the TED for the demise of the VIC all you want, the VIC was doomed due to the success of the C64.

And with the VIC's falling sales, I don't think it would have made a lot of difference..

 

Dave Haynie stated in a video that the real keyboard version of the TED was $10 more to produce than the C116.

Even at closeout price, they had to be making at least $50 per machine.

1 million machines x $50 is $50 million dollars profit. If you want to argue about that number, remember that a lot of sales were at 3 to 4 times the cost of production rather than just 2 times. So, that's probably a low figure. Does $50 million sound like a wast of time? Especially with falling VIC sales?

And before you argue the markup was only $30 on the C64... the C64 was more expensive to produce and that was years later.

Still, if you want to go there and claim the markup was only $30, that's still $30 million dollars profit.

 

Since only 50,000 of the C116's were sold,I don't see just releasing it. With it's lower sale price that's still at least $2.5 million in sales, but that pales compared to the C16 and Plus/4.

At least some version with a real keyboard is what people wanted.

Commodore did need to release the TED the previous year, but that would mostly be to counter falling VIC sales, and the company still had available manufacturing capacity then.

Commodore sold around 2.5 million VIC 20s total between 1980 and 1985 but the last 500,000 were probably spread over several years.. If the TED had been on the market even one more year, it's sales total would probably be 1.5 to 2 million machines. Maybe more if they could have produced extra machines in advance to make it through the holiday season the year the TED was discontinued.

 

And I'll say it again, it's 100% nostalgia. People want the VIC-20 because it was popular, or they had it or something.

[+save2600]

I skipped the Vic-20 BITD (had a TI and an Atari 400), but decided to get one in my later collecting years. Had that slick Denial Multi-cart with the extra RAM, etc. Was fun for a very short while, discovering what I had missed back then - but after I had gone through all the games, did not feel compelled to keep it. Good little machine for what it was I guess, but compared to its contemporaries then and now (never even considered purchasing BITD), too primitive for my tastes.

 

If my *only* choices then were between the Timex Sinclair 1000 and a Vic-20, I'd have surely picked the Vic.

[JamesD]

I skipped the Vic-20 BITD (had a TI and an Atari 400), but decided to get one in my later collecting years. Had that slick Denial Multi-cart with the extra RAM, etc. Was fun for a very short while, discovering what I had missed back then - but after I had gone through all the games, did not feel compelled to keep it. Good little machine for what it was I guess, but compared to its contemporaries then and now (never even considered purchasing BITD), too primitive for my tastes.

 

If my *only* choices then were between the Timex Sinclair 1000 and a Vic-20, I'd have surely picked the Vic.

I always looked at it like this... if the Aquarius had programmable characters, it would be a better machine.