Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 hour ago, wildstar87 said: Thanks for getting this pushed through Piotr. It gives me a bit more motivation to trying to get it working. You almost gave up :))) Well, let's get to work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildstar87 Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 (edited) So on that note, does anyone have experience hooking VBXE up to a Retrotink 5X-Pro? It isn't as straightforward as I thought. I'm going to have the create a SCART cable, which isn't that big a deal, I'm mostly worried about the CSYNC. From the wiki it states: Sync The TINK-5x accepts sync on luma, sync on composite and c-sync RGB over SCART configurations. Check with your SCART cable manufacturer to ensure compatibility with the RetroTINK-5x Pro. Note that TTL-level sync is not supported by the TINK-5x and may damage your hardware. Note that RGsB (such as the PlayStation 2's RGB output for 480i/480p titles) is not supported. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I seem to remember when putting together my 1088XEL, the Csync signal needed an inline resistor, so I'm guessing that the output of the 4050 Csync is TTL? I finally found the information in the RGB2VGA thread: The only signals required from the VBXE are R, G, B, Csync, and Gnd to P11 (RGBS in) on the GBS board. If you look at the RGB2VGA-XLD board's silkscreen on the board images I posted yesterday you'll see the position of these signals on that connector. Off the top of my head, I believe Csync is the gray wire on the P11 harness. Control would not be used for this application. Nor is separated sync (Vsync, Hsync) required. However, and this is important, a 470-680 ohm resistor should be connected in series on the Csync line from the Atari to the GBS. If you don't do this, the 5V Csync going directly to the GBS will eventually damage a chip on the GBS board. It can't take anything above 3.3V. I'm just wondering if this is all I need to do with the Retrotink, or should I look into building a sync stripper circuit from the LM1881, LMH1980, or ISL59885ISZ. The last thing I want to do is inadvertently fry the Retrotink, as it isn't cheap at all. Edited September 5, 2023 by wildstar87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 31 minutes ago, wildstar87 said: So on that note, does anyone have experience hooking VBXE up to a Retrotink 5X-Pro? Atari XE or XL ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildstar87 Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 130XE Remake board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 7 minutes ago, wildstar87 said: 130XE Remake board Small advertisement SAVO XE + Sega Saturn to Euro SCART https://www.ebay.com/itm/125814511405 or direct sell via paypal (order via PM): $35 shipping included Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electron Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 (edited) 50 minutes ago, wildstar87 said: So on that note, does anyone have experience hooking VBXE up to a Retrotink 5X-Pro? It isn't as straightforward as I thought. I'm going to have the create a SCART cable, which isn't that big a deal, I'm mostly worried about the CSYNC. From the wiki it states: I'm using retrotink 5x with VBXE 1.1 ... since yesterday to be honest. No problem at all, but I don't remember what I have connected as csync ... probably digital 5V CSYNC from 4050 through resistor in series, but i would have to check. Edited September 5, 2023 by electron 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 In the meantime at Lotharek.pl... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 minute ago, electron said: I'm using retrotink 5x with VBXE 1.1 ... since yesterday to be honest. No problem at all, but I don't remember what I have connected as csync ... probably digital 5V CSYNC from 4050 through resistor in series, but i would have to check. As I recall, you could use a 300-ohm resistor, but my recommendation is to opt for a voltage divider. The CSYNC' (Pin #15 on the 4050) is the best source for clear synchronization with a relatively low level of noise (when GND is from VBXE). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildstar87 Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 5 minutes ago, electron said: I'm using retrotink 5x with VBXE 1.1 ... since yesterday to be honest. No problem at all, but I don't remember what I have connected as csync ... probably digital 5V CSYNC from 4050 through resistor in series, but i would have to check. If you could check, that would be great, I just want to prep for success with this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 The new SAVO boards will feature a small circuit designed to filter the SYNC signal in two stages: first by removing noise from the Atari, and second by eliminating reverse noise from the TV cable. The objective is to achieve a very sharp, yet noise-free, CSYNC signal at a peak-to-peak voltage of 300mV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildstar87 Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, Piotr D. Kaczorowski said: The new SAVO boards will feature a small circuit designed to filter the SYNC signal in two stages: first by removing noise from the Atari, and second by eliminating reverse noise from the TV cable. The objective is to achieve a very sharp, yet noise-free, CSYNC signal at a peak-to-peak voltage of 300mV Hmm, based on this, it sounds like I should just make a small sync stripper circuit to do it correctly. But for simplicity's sake, the voltage divider would be quicker. I'm assuming 2 resistors in series running from Csync(4050) to GND, with Csync (OUT) tapped in the middle. What resistors would you suggest? You mention 0.3v, but I've also seen 0.7v or 1v mentioned in the Csync discussions I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, wildstar87 said: Hmm, based on this, it sounds like I should just make a small sync stripper circuit to do it correctly. But for simplicity's sake, the voltage divider would be quicker. I'm assuming 2 resistors in series running from Csync(4050) to GND, with Csync (OUT) tapped in the middle. What resistors would you suggest? You mention 0.3v, but I've also seen 0.7v or 1v mentioned in the Csync discussions I've seen. I've sold almost 200 of these SAVO boards already. There have been no reports of any issues, but (!!!!) at home, I have a 20" Panasonic Viera TV, my favorite, which is very sensitive to synchronization. No sync striper helps. I've already built a circuit and it's in the final stages of testing, so if everything goes well, it will simply be on the SAVO rev2 board. For now, I've managed to get it down to even 140mV, while it still picks up something when connected from various +5V points on the main board. In any case, it's in the testing phase. The lower limit is 300mV. It shouldn't really go any lower. What should the size be? The smallest! Because CSYNC is a pure square wave signal, and such a signal in a Fourier series is an infinite number of sine waves that approximate it. Therefore, the larger the amplitude, the more hum you'll have on the audio and the more interference you'll have on the image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 10 minutes ago, wildstar87 said: Hmm, based on this, it sounds like I should just make a small sync stripper circuit to do it correctly. But for simplicity's sake, the voltage divider would be quicker. I'm assuming 2 resistors in series running from Csync(4050) to GND, with Csync (OUT) tapped in the middle. What resistors would you suggest? You mention 0.3v, but I've also seen 0.7v or 1v mentioned in the Csync discussions I've seen. Try a 300R resistor to start with. It should be fine. I am a functioning perfectionist and am working on developing a final solution at an entirely different level, also needed for generating S-video, CVBS, and Component Video and finally HDMI. If you don't have a voltage divider, you will also load the 4050 circuit itself. This circuit is simple, so if it has a low-quality cable that becomes an antenna, you will experience reverse noise that will also affect the power stabilization of the 4050. It's a bit of magic, but that's how it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 43 minutes ago, Piotr D. Kaczorowski said: In the meantime at Lotharek.pl... Hmmmmm - details on why there's a new version? Just a change due to supply chain issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 Funny. It still says rev 2.1 on the PCB. But why waste a good photo opportunity. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, Stephen said: Hmmmmm - details on why there's a new version? Just a change due to supply chain issues? Well, I'm not really sure. I believe they are the same, and he also stated on Facebook that they are the same. In fact, I have some of those boards at home, including at least two revisions of version 2.1, each with different RAM on it. I've also noticed slight variations in the R-2R DACs. So, there may be some minor differences. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted September 6, 2023 Share Posted September 6, 2023 I'm running an additional wire off the composite output of the UAV to the composite pin on my 9-pin that I have installed to provide me with c-sync for those cables that need it. But I'm also running sync itself to its dedicated pin from the Sync off the UAV which, I believe is just the sync off the 4050 it is attached to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 It hasn't been a week since the NTSC core for VBXE appeared and AtariAge was sold... Coincidence? I don't think so 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woj Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 Skipping the shameless advertising and going back to the csync question. @wildstar87 I got my RTK 5x about a month ago and also got very wary of the sync signal levels note. My VBXE installation had it hooked up to 4050 directly and I did resolder it back to the composite signal going out of UAV before I hooked up RTK. It was also at this point I realized that occasional shakes on my LCD TV connected directly through SCART were probably due to the too strong csync signal, and what do you know, after the composite reroute it subsided. As for the image quality on RTK, I got crystal clear picture with the composite sync, so I am not sure you have to go through troubles of scaling down the 4050 signal, just use the composite signal. I only have a picture in the highres mode with interlace triggered by Sophia (RTK will only take proper interlaced signal), but it should give you the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 51 minutes ago, woj said: It was also at this point I realized that occasional shakes on my LCD TV I have the same!!!! Nobody believed me! This issue has been addressed in the new SAVO rev.2 and related family boards with a small circuit. It pertains to the internal noise of the Atari and external reverse noise from the cable to the TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geister Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 This is amazing news. I have been holding off buying the VBXE/L board for various reasons, the NTSC pallette being one of them. I'm going to have to order a number of items (VBXL, U1MB, Side3, FujiNET) and re-read this thread and related to to get up to speed on this. Thanks Piotr for following thru on this. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildstar87 Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 4 hours ago, woj said: Skipping the shameless advertising and going back to the csync question. @wildstar87 I got my RTK 5x about a month ago and also got very wary of the sync signal levels note. My VBXE installation had it hooked up to 4050 directly and I did resolder it back to the composite signal going out of UAV before I hooked up RTK. It was also at this point I realized that occasional shakes on my LCD TV connected directly through SCART were probably due to the too strong csync signal, and what do you know, after the composite reroute it subsided. As for the image quality on RTK, I got crystal clear picture with the composite sync, so I am not sure you have to go through troubles of scaling down the 4050 signal, just use the composite signal. I only have a picture in the highres mode with interlace triggered by Sophia (RTK will only take proper interlaced signal), but it should give you the idea. Thanks woj! That's good to know. Now I just have to get a Scart cable, and mod it. I'm crossing my fingers that this will finally work out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 11 minutes ago, wildstar87 said: Thanks woj! That's good to know. Now I just have to get a Scart cable, and mod it. I'm crossing my fingers that this will finally work out! @wildstar87, @woj, I can introduce an additional product to the SAVO line that will produce proper synchronization for VBXE without needing SAVO. It will eliminate noise from the Atari and reverse noise from the cable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woj Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 2 hours ago, Piotr D. Kaczorowski said: @wildstar87, @woj, I can introduce an additional product to the SAVO line that will produce proper synchronization for VBXE without needing SAVO. It will eliminate noise from the Atari and reverse noise from the cable. Isn't that what Spectre provides too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piotr D. Kaczorowski Posted September 8, 2023 Share Posted September 8, 2023 1 hour ago, woj said: Isn't that what Spectre provides too? A little more advanced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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