How rare are Atari 8-bit custom chips getting these days?

[Keatah]

Even the logic level translators are getting hard to find and less numerous. Several projects I oversaw used them. Now they don't.

[Bryan]

You can always make your own with transistors, but I bet there will be simpler translation solutions available for a long time.

[Kyle22]

We need a new production quad core PoKey made to exact original specifications. Maybe we could add a little logic to make AUDC1-4 Volume-only mode (bit 4 set) also look at bits 5-7 for three more bits of resolution when playing digi-musix. This will also improve SID emulation big time.

 

How much would it cost to fab this in China? I'm talking normal 40 pin DIP plug n play 5V chips. I don't mind Chinese chips (except certain GTIAs) because that's where my iPhone was made. If they can make iPhones, they can make PoKeys.

[ricortes]

hehe, probably $100k up front. Problem isn't just the up front money IMHO, starting to get into physics and costs per unit. By that I mean a lot of cost reduction in electronics we have seen is through shrinkage of the die sizes. You get a lot more devices per wafer with miniaturization but have to reduce the voltages when the distance between signal paths gets so small 5 volts will jump it. IDK, choice between yield of 1,000 POKEY chips & 10,000 WiFi chips.

 

I am a serial com junkie. I would love to have a system with 4 SIO ports. I'm just not sure we can pull it off.

[+kheller2]

There are many quad pokey converters to use normal pokey's and even quad pokey emulated chips. How different are the pinouts on the quad vs non quad? Might be better to just mass produce quad pokeys with an adapter for us 8bitters

[Xebec]

One can hope in another few years home 3D Printers will be able to just print transistors at the size these chips were fabbed at 30-40 years ago..

[ACML]

Wanted to bump and readdress this thread.  It's 2023 now and the availability of the five VLSI chips (SALLY, ANTIC, GTIA, POKEY and PIA) has changed.  Back in 2017, you could still buy cheap 400/800 boards and harvest the VSLI chips and even some of the 74 series TTL logic chips, but those are starting to get scarce.  Best was selling PIAs (6520) for $2, but now they are $10.  POKEYs sell for $40-$50 now on eBay.  Even SALLYs, GTIAs and ANTICs are selling for $12-$20 on eBay now.  Brad at Best, still sells them cheaper, but for how much longer?  B&C used to sell the 400/800 processor boards (SALLY, GTIA and ANTIC) for $25 and now they are $39 with limited numbers left.  I had trouble finding 74 series TTL logic chips at DigiKey, but eBay still has plenty (NOS).  It just seems to me that we've turned the corner on availability.  Yes, we can still find them, but the prices have gone up significantly since this thread started in 2017.  The prices are higher, but not enough for me to consider new modern replacements (i.e. POKEYMAX).  Don't know how much longer before they get scarce enough to be too expensive, but all it takes is the one part you need to revive your 8-bit to no longer be readily available.

 

 

[reifsnyderb]

Can't a POKEY be done on a FPGA?

[Overange]

1 hour ago, ACML said:

Wanted to bump and readdress this thread.  It's 2023 now and the availability of the five VLSI chips (SALLY, ANTIC, GTIA, POKEY and PIA) has changed.  Back in 2017, you could still buy cheap 400/800 boards and harvest the VSLI chips and even some of the 74 series TTL logic chips, but those are starting to get scarce.  Best was selling PIAs (6520) for $2, but now they are $10.  POKEYs sell for $40-$50 now on eBay.  Even SALLYs, GTIAs and ANTICs are selling for $12-$20 on eBay now.  Brad at Best, still sells them cheaper, but for how much longer?  B&C used to sell the 400/800 processor boards (SALLY, GTIA and ANTIC) for $25 and now they are $39 with limited numbers left.  I had trouble finding 74 series TTL logic chips at DigiKey, but eBay still has plenty (NOS).  It just seems to me that we've turned the corner on availability.  Yes, we can still find them, but the prices have gone up significantly since this thread started in 2017.  The prices are higher, but not enough for me to consider new modern replacements (i.e. POKEYMAX).  Don't know how much longer before they get scarce enough to be too expensive, but all it takes is the one part you need to revive your 8-bit to no longer be readily available.

 

 

I totally agree! Do you think it would be a good idea to make a new pinned topic along with a online document, like a Spreadsheet and only editable by key AA members, where we list not just the ICs but also other parts like some passive components, connectors etc?

 

We could include information on where to source these parts, suggest newer alternatives, and even share some modifications to deal with the problem of parts becoming obsolete.

 

What do you think?

[+scorpio_ny]

1 hour ago, reifsnyderb said:

Can't a POKEY be done on a FPGA?

Already done! The. Pokeymax is a full FPGA replacement that was mentioned earlier. It comes in different versions with varying enhancements. Currently, V3 is not available because of the chip shortage. I believe V2’s can be had more easily. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by scorpio_ny

[+scorpio_ny]

1 hour ago, Overange said:

1 hour ago, Overange said:

.

Edited September 22, 2023 by scorpio_ny

[reifsnyderb]

43 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said:

Already done! The. Pokeymax is a full FPGA replacement that was mentioned earlier. It comes in different versions with varying enhancements. Currently, V3 is not available because of the chip shortage. I believe V2’s can be had more easily. 

How about just a POKEY without the enhancements on an FPGA?  A "cheap" version?

[+scorpio_ny]

1 hour ago, Overange said:

I totally agree! Do you think it would be a good idea to make a new pinned topic along with a online document, like a Spreadsheet and only editable by key AA members, where we list not just the ICs but also other parts like some passive components, connectors etc?

 

We could include information on where to source these parts, suggest newer alternatives, and even share some modifications to deal with the problem of parts becoming obsolete.

 

What do you think?

 Some (but not all) of the price inflation is due to genuine scarcity. My concern is that someone would abuse the centralized information to acquire the items and flip them to make a profit.

[+scorpio_ny]

2 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

How about just a POKEY without the enhancements on an FPGA?  A "cheap" version?

It may be possible, but I would not know.
 

Maybe @foft can give us some insights on this question.

[+MrFish]

1 hour ago, scorpio_ny said:

Currently, V3 is not available because of the chip shortage.

The irony...

 

[+MrFish]

45 minutes ago, scorpio_ny said:

My concern is that someone would abuse the centralized information to acquire the items and flip them to make a profit.

Fear is the enemy. Abusers aren't going to go away because you hide information.

 

[+mytek]

56 minutes ago, reifsnyderb said:

How about just a POKEY without the enhancements on an FPGA?  A "cheap" version?

Yes and one that stays within the footprint of the original chip would be nice 👍

 

Resist the urge to add bells and whistles. Although if the first point I made can be adhered to, making it a dual Pokey without increasing the cost or quantity of the components would seem the most likely exception, since that at least has significant support.

[Overange]

1 hour ago, scorpio_ny said:

 Some (but not all) of the price inflation is due to genuine scarcity. My concern is that someone would abuse the centralized information to acquire the items and flip them to make a profit.

That will always happen, we see it all the time on eBay.

 

But, it will then help with innovation to bring new replacement / reproduced parts into the market, in turn it could drive down prices.

 

and as mentioned above, if there is a cheaper Dual Pokey Chip with the out the bell and whistles  it would drive down the cost of the original Pokeys.

 

 

[_The Doctor__]

only if there were still original Atari or third party actual original LSI's in production. If someone had a few thousand of them and there was an cheap alternative, then they would be forced to lower their price. If they only have 50 of them left, they normally don't give a Rat's *ss

Edited September 23, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[+scorpio_ny]

56 minutes ago, Overange said:

That will always happen, we see it all the time on eBay.

 

But, it will then help with innovation to bring new replacement / reproduced parts into the market, in turn it could drive down prices.

 

and as mentioned above, if there is a cheaper Dual Pokey Chip with the out the bell and whistles  it would drive down the cost of the original Pokeys.

 

 

Do not get me wrong, I am supportive of the idea. Just weighing the pros and cons. 

[+scorpio_ny]

26 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

only if there were still original Atari or third party actual original LSI's in production. If someone had a few thousand of them and there was a cheap alternative, then they would be forced to lower their price. If they only have 50 of them left, they normally don't give a Rat's *ss

 I think we will have inexpensive third party party alternatives for the original LSI  chips. The FPGA replacements were not so expensive initially. Then the supply chain chip shortages hit and the new replacement became scarce and too expensive. 

I think we are fortunate that there are viable replacements for most of the LSI chips already created . We only have to wait until prices goes down or further refinement. The only chip I have not seen a replacement for is the Antic chip.

 

 

[ivop]

Perhaps one could put a fast ARM chip on a 40 DIP footprint, one that's fast enough to race the bus (like the UNO Cart, perhaps slightly faster) and implement a Pokey emulation. It has been done with the SID (ARMSID, https://www.nobomi.cz/8bit/armsid/index_en.php ).

[ijor]

16 hours ago, reifsnyderb said:

How about just a POKEY without the enhancements on an FPGA?  A "cheap" version?

It is, of course, perfectly possible to produce a "basic" FPGA Pokey. But it is not economically. It won't really be much cheap that Pokeymax unless you produce it in high quantities. And a cheap product, again, unless you can sell it in high volume, is not a very interesting or attractive product to market.

[reifsnyderb]

55 minutes ago, ijor said:

It is, of course, perfectly possible to produce a "basic" FPGA Pokey. But it is not economically. It won't really be much cheap that Pokeymax unless you produce it in high quantities. And a cheap product, again, unless you can sell it in high volume, is not a very interesting or attractive product to market.

I understand your thinking, however my thought is that having a one to one Pokey replacement chip is better than no Pokey replacement.  Since a real Pokey chip is now over $60, if a one to one replacement could be made for $30 that would be a good thing.

[reifsnyderb]

14 hours ago, scorpio_ny said:

The only chip I have not seen a replacement for is the Antic chip.

I wonder why Antic has been skipped....