Why is there not an "AVS" (fpga based console) equivalent for the 2600?

[Andromeda Stardust]

To answer the OP quickly and succinctly, there is no need for an FPGA-based VCS. We're covered by ebay, Flashbacks, and emulation.

 

Additionally I also feel that if new VCS hardware were to be made today in the form of a full console; there would have to be additional things included. Why? Because! And that's a problem, WHAT to put in, what sort of "add-on" features to incorporate?

Keatah, with all due respect, you have made it obvious in your rants that no console truly needs the FPGA option, because emulation is cheaper and more feature filled. However some gamers demand tighter control, which can only be had through the FPGA.

[Keatah]

I feel that as we move farther away from the time the original hardware was manufactured, the less people are championing accurate timing & control. And the ones that are calling for those features are becoming a vocal minority.

 

I believe the numbers back it up too. Software Emulation has exploded all over the place, while we still have yet to see a comprehensive and feature-complete FPGA implementation of one of the most simplest consoles of all time.

 

There's absolutely nothing wrong in holding such a high standard, I just continue to feel that those extra 2 or 3 percentage points don't warrant the inconvenience and costs. To me it's like bolting on a bigger turbo and extra intercooler and program chip among other mods, just to get .5 seconds off your 0-60 time. And in the process, losing cold-weather efficiency and easy starting of the engine.

 

---

 

In the end. I think it is cost and cost alone that stops a FPGA-based VCS'es from being made.

[Keatah]

I was about to ask how accurate the 2600 core was, but you answered for me. The classic comps I have little interest in. Not really a rabbit hole I want to climb down and invest time into.

 

Classic comps via FPGA aren't really ever finished to completion. Again, it's the feature-set like in WinUAE or Altirra which can make your existing host PC+mouse+keyboard feel like an original Atari or Amiga. Or even a souped-up rig if you so desire. To do that on FPGA you'd need to make your own host OS too.

 

Cartridge consoles on the other hand are rather complete in their FPGA simulations. After all, there in usually one or two set configurations of hardware, no keyboards, no disk drives, or other virtualized peripherals that require user interaction. No controls other than POWER ON/OFF or RESET.

 

Disk drives, you have to be able to insert and swap disk images. Assign drive numbers.. and more. Virtual printers, you need to interact with the output portion, like specify a file, and then decode/display the file. Or a comport, you need to hook it a real hardware comport somehow.

 

I'm more than happy enough to be 1 frame behind or having it "get stuck" in the framebuffer if I gain all the extra features of those deluxe emulators.

[Keatah]

I often keep mentioning Software Emulation and how well it competes against (and often exceeds) FPGA hardware so that newbies can get the whole picture. I don't care about seeing my type in print on message boards - that vanity died out in the 300 baud modem era. I don't care about increasing post counts - the mods could reset my count to 0 and I wouldn't give a care in the world.

 

A big issue is that too many people think FPGA is a 1:1 duplicate of the original hardware's circuitry, limited only by the accuracy of the schematics. Put a capacitor here, connect it to that chip there. Ha! That is so not true. And in the same way newcomers think that Software Emulation totally disregards timing and that the emulator itself is a hastily slapped-together translator of ROMS to X86. Or somesuch hack job. That is so not true either. A lot of painstaking work goes into both of these alternate ways of playing games. Getting things sequenced right and on-schedule is a huge deal.

[CapitanClassic]

I dont have a lot of experience with verilog, but since the 6502, RiOT, and TIA have transistor level recreations due to the hard work of the Visual6502 guys, shouldnt an perfect recreation of a VCS be possible in an FPGA?

 

http://visual6502.org/wiki/index.php?title=Chips_in_our_collection

 

 

Someone creates a 6502 core

http://www.aholme.co.uk/6502/Main.htm

 

cannot seem to find the RIOT or TIA though. They do mention generating frames of video

http://www.visual6502.org/images/pages/Atari_10444D_TIA.html

Edited January 10, 2018 by CapitanClassic

[Keatah]

It's not enough to say a transistor is a simple switch. Transistors are more than that. And you have RC and RL circuits and some D/A conversion. To replicate the flavor of the VCS with all the nuances, the FPGA would need to handle the analog signals, the betas, cutoffs, resonances, and bias points.

 

You might get the logic and sequencing and timing right, but then a software emulator can do that too.

[First Ninja]

I'd buy one on the double, if available! Kickstarter, anyone?

[orange808]

Look up MISTer, but you may be happier running Stella on a PC.

 

Also, try to find the write up that Byuu wrote titled "FPGA isn't magic".

[Drunk_Caterpillar]

I know it's not perfect, but with Stella 6 support on the Retron77 I'm not really all that fussed about not having an AVS style solution. Yes, I'd like to be able to use a broader selection of original carts; yes, I'd like to have more peripheral support on the built in ports. For my use case scenario though (using the handful of common carts I own and plugging in paddles through a 2600dapter) I think it'll do just fine.

[phoenixdownita]

It seems CollectorVision Phoenix 2600 core is coming out nice, check it out for yourself:

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/265958-collectorvision-game-system/page-50?do=findComment&comment=4262588

 

 

Playing VCS Phoenix on the CollectorVision Phoenix ... poetic!

[KevKelley]

I was curious about the Phoenix but was curious as to how the Atari part would work as I did not see multiple cartridge slots.

[+Gemintronic]

I was curious about the Phoenix but was curious as to how the Atari part would work as I did not see multiple cartridge slots.

 

My impression is that it's probably a core update plus adapter? Hopefully when I can get a developer unit I'll test the heck out of it.

[KevKelley]

This is a project I have been very interested in. I love the old hardware but it is aging so I would definitely love a modern system to play with that is fully compatible. I was a little dissapointed with the Retron77 but have seen the community improve upon it greatly. My dream would be a kind of OG Retron system for all the systems of the 70s/80s as well as an amazing Universal controller available, like this one:

 

http://www.retrocollect.com/News/new-atari-jaguar-controller-in-development.html

 

Except compatible with the Intellivision and Colecovision as well.

 

I have been trying to educate myself about all the old hardware. I find it very fascinating and the further development for these systems interesting.

[high voltage]

Mind you Atari had the first P&P's;

[First Ninja]

Look up MISTer, but you may be happier running Stella on a PC.

 

Also, try to find the write up that Byuu wrote titled "FPGA isn't magic".

 

Thanks for the advice. I know of Mister, but there's a reason I haven't bought one - as far as I know, it lacks a VCS 2600 cartridge part. The FGPA I'm looking for has to have one - not being able to use physical cartridges is a dealbreaker, so to speak. That's why I'm crossing my fingers for the Atariman to come into fruition - I would buy it in a second!

 

[Keatah]

Look up MISTer, but you may be happier running Stella on a PC.

 

Also, try to find the write up that Byuu wrote titled "FPGA isn't magic".

 

Yes. Stella is more feature-complete and versatile. Plus you've got the power of the PC behind you for managing & organizing ROMs and such stuff.

 

There's nothing magical about cartridges anymore. It's a fallacy they offer a better experience in this day and age. BITD they were a solution that satisfied marketing (pretty labels), engineers (durable way of swapping a computer's program), and consumers (convenient way to purchase and collect games). But that was the 1970's. ROMs and emulators surpass all that stuffage.

 

I do not like weird-looking custom VCS implementations for day to day usage. Can't use the SpaceShuttle overlays. Can't fit a supercharger in there due to the design requiring deep cartridge insertion. FPGA likely doesn't support 100% exact precise DB9 input/output activity. And if it should go bad? With emulation you can get updates and do bug reports, as well as get new hardware from like 1,000+ retailers. Emulators make no warranties, but, yet, they continue to exceed all expectations in that departments.

 

I'm sure this is interesting as a conversation piece and general experiment. But give me software emulation any day. And feel free to hate on this post.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Thanks for the advice. I know of Mister, but there's a reason I haven't bought one - as far as I know, it lacks a VCS 2600 cartridge part. The FGPA I'm looking for has to have one - not being able to use physical cartridges is a dealbreaker, so to speak. That's why I'm crossing my fingers for the Atariman to come into fruition - I would buy it in a second!

 

I want that Atariman. Don't care how much it costs. Also no fpga is gonna emulate harmony carts without a slot.

[MrBeefy]

I want that Atariman. Don't care how much it costs. Also no fpga is gonna emulate harmony carts without a slot.

If it runs off roms (not carts) that makes a Harmony pointless anyways.

[hizzy]

I'd pay a 500.00 for an Atariman, no question.

[orange808]

FPGAs rely on the same hacks every other emulator uses. It's not reproducing transistor level hardware behavior.

[Keatah]

If it runs off roms (not carts) that makes a Harmony pointless anyways.

..as long as the FPGA emulates the 70MHz ARM CPU that's inside the Harmony. If it doesn't you don't get games like SpaceRocks or any other DPC+ title.

 

Additionally it'd be pretty awkward for an FPGA to do ROMS only and exclusively. Yeh.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Keatah

[Keatah]

FPGAs rely on the same hacks every other emulator uses. It's not reproducing transistor level hardware behavior.

You got that straight, Slim! People really need to wise up and get that notion out of their heads - that FPGA is an exact hardware replica. Especially those youtubers and so-called videogame journalists.

[youxia]

FPGAs rely on the same hacks every other emulator uses. It's not reproducing transistor level hardware behavior.

 

Maybe so, but they do get the results. I don't care about much else - most of the PC emulation is accurate enough for me - but 0-1 frames of lag is not to be sniffed at.

[orange808]

 

Maybe so, but they do get the results. I don't care about much else - most of the PC emulation is accurate enough for me - but 0-1 frames of lag is not to be sniffed at.

 

Agreed. Latency sucks.

 

But, that's why we use real hardware on a CRT, isn't it?

 

If an FPGA VCS is a product I'm selling, I can't just pipe out the raw VCS output. Many displays will choke. It's a customer service nightmare. I can't afford the hassle; nobody can.

 

A viable console will almost certainly need to offer a buffered 60Hz output option and an accurate VRR/Freesync/GSync mode. The video output is so unpredictable; that's probably the only reliable solutions.

 

Maybe the MISTer project will eventually grow and offer what we want. In the meantime, it's Stella and real hardware.

[hizzy]

The lower latency is definitely welcome. I would say that I don't feel any lag in Stella on a PC. I find I notice it quite a bit in NES and Commodore 64 emulation. There is an FPGA Commodore that I want to try out.