Heaven/TQA Posted May 21, 2018 Author Share Posted May 21, 2018 The issue is how to get the vertical lines being visible. Koronis rift sets outline but doesnt use eor filler technique. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 21, 2018 Author Share Posted May 21, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 OK. Understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 just for fun... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 more "death valey"... or more round... Carpenter makes it possible... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 Lucasfilm really was AAA studio... talents in the ILM department with Carpenter as team lead movie know how in Lucasfilm main frame coding setup based on unix with "cross compiler" for 800...so game was written in high language and main frame unix system with tool chain and set http://peterlangston.com/Papers/vidgam.pdf coders had the ball to code "real" 3d with tricks on 8bit machines.... they had "balls" to do it in 1982.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 coders had the ball to code "real" 3d with tricks on 8bit machines.... they had "balls" to do it in 1982.... What are "Balls" worthy without the environment? Sorry, but I have to view that from a "real" point. For some reason, people joined together, coding on machines, you and I cannot buy today ... They learned to handle things , and yes, they had learned their lessons. And, then someone spills some million bucks, for converting existing software to work on a real small computer. Maybe, others may fail, they didn't ... But, you find that in every range of "profession": If people have the chance, and they weren't just dumbf***s , they would find a solution to optimize things. But, particular Koronis Rift has bugs on the Atari... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Anyway due to colors I am trying for 3 days using a EOR filler approach. Issue is that I dont know the colors above and below a area to fill as the drawing is handled from left to right. Looks like you fixed it already, sorry for late reply, but if you're going to combine two techniques, I'm afraid an additional table lookup/check is unavoidable, unless some particular property of the dataset jumps out during designing/debugging. I often get those optimization ideas few days later, and it just hits me. What was it in this particular case ? Did you go for additional check per column ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 23, 2018 Author Share Posted May 23, 2018 Vladr... And I did fail still in an eor filler only environment.... Then I had a dumb idea.... as I set 2 pixel (start and stop for eor filler) what happens when setting 1 pixel in y offsetted? Voila.... contour A simple lda clc adc #255 to ypos did it 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 Contour I understand. Before I started using Blitter in my jaguar flatshader, I was also adjusting first/last pixel, as it was just so super cheap, to introduce additional visual variability. Impossible to do on Blitter in remotely comparable performance characteristics. So, if you didn't fix the vertical glitch, how come it doesn't appear in your latest vids ? Did you find some dataset range where it simply doesn't manifest ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 24, 2018 Author Share Posted May 24, 2018 Yeah there is a way to keep track of color for the eor filler but I still was not able to get it work so for the moment I went for this approach. Koronis rift draws 2x first mountains with a delta span filler and then the white outlines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 24, 2018 Author Share Posted May 24, 2018 The vertical glitch actually was not a bug. It were the grid vertical vertices. The mesh is being drawn like x1,y1,z1 to x2,y2,z1 and x2,y2,z2 to x3,y3,z3 So proper setting colors are now hiding those vertical edges. Those were visible with different colors but actually were no bugs. So to say they worked as designed. But they are needed to give the illusion. Those are getting clipped against near z plane as far as I could without breaking the maths. I might run into issue when I start to rotate.... as this drawing order etc is very very specific for frontal flight. But I am sure it totally breaks when I start to turn.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 The vertical glitch actually was not a bug. It were the grid vertical vertices. The mesh is being drawn like x1,y1,z1 to x2,y2,z1 and x2,y2,z2 to x3,y3,z3 So proper setting colors are now hiding those vertical edges. Those were visible with different colors but actually were no bugs. So to say they worked as designed. But they are needed to give the illusion. Hehe... Seems my posts did some inspiration Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 24, 2018 Author Share Posted May 24, 2018 Sorry mate... no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 (edited) Sorry mate... no Compare post #49 and #59 and what I wrote from post #47 and inbetween Coincidence? Edited May 24, 2018 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 The vertical glitch actually was not a bug. It were the grid vertical vertices. The mesh is being drawn like x1,y1,z1 to x2,y2,z1 and x2,y2,z2 to x3,y3,z3 So proper setting colors are now hiding those vertical edges. Those were visible with different colors but actually were no bugs. So to say they worked as designed. But they are needed to give the illusion. Those are getting clipped against near z plane as far as I could without breaking the maths. I might run into issue when I start to rotate.... as this drawing order etc is very very specific for frontal flight. But I am sure it totally breaks when I start to turn.... I actually highly applaud your decision to not go for full rotation from the very start. There's plenty applications , even gaming ones, where rotation is not strictly speaking required, and it brings additional performance (as every single cycle counts). Damn, this thread makes me wanna go implement fractal landscape on Jaguar Especially now, that I can use DSP in parallel to GPU + 68000 + Blitter, you gotta wonder what kind of the Atari-esque fractal landscape would be possible with all that RISC power. Though, knowing myself, I would probably just blow it all on high resolution 768x200 Could be real sharp, though... Did you ever encounter a variant of this technique that would draw horizontal spans ? Jaguar's Blitter is terribly slow in vertical spans (compared to horizontal ones), as the Blitter's outer loop has to run, effectively, per each and every pixel, silently burning through all performance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 We have an Amiga version running fast and not sure how the blitter filler works there.... (68k is Not mine) but its only RoF 4 color version... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 Turning is a must: but that is precalced. Look at 6:25 ff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 We have an Amiga version running fast and not sure how the blitter filler works there.... (68k is Not mine) but its only RoF 4 color version... Why would you have a 4-color version on Amiga ? Why not at least 16 ? What performance benefit is there instead of 16 colors, since this is a vertical filler ? It's still color planes, no ? if it was Horizontal filling, then yes, but I don't see how that helps in vertical spans. Turning is a must: but that is precalced. Look at 6:25 ff. Why? Plenty games can be made that don't require the performance killer of turning - just strafing left/right and jumping up/down (e.g. just changing the Camera.ViewPos) - anything like jumping/running, even flying. Perhaps you have some specific game in mind ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 On Amiga everything is avoiding using as much bandwidth on the bus.... so less colors for blitter less bitplanes to fill...its not like on ST where you can set 16 col pixels with movep and on Amiga bitplanes are separate planes not interleaved. So less colors means less cpu blocks while blitter occupies the bus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted May 25, 2018 Author Share Posted May 25, 2018 Why turning? Because we can.... lucasfilm did it 1984.... so in 2018 we should be able to to do it again better 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Why turning? Because we can.... lucasfilm did it 1984.... so in 2018 we should be able to to do it again better "Lucasfilm" did it in Antic D . Possibly stretching the resolution to 80x80 ( for Gr.10 /one pixel 3 scanlines ) could help there, for something fluent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 On Amiga everything is avoiding using as much bandwidth on the bus.... so less colors for blitter less bitplanes to fill...its not like on ST where you can set 16 col pixels with movep and on Amiga bitplanes are separate planes not interleaved. So less colors means less cpu blocks while blitter occupies the bus. Interesting, wasn't aware of this difference. Well, it is a Commodore, after all Why turning? Because we can.... lucasfilm did it 1984.... so in 2018 we should be able to to do it again better Yeah, but what does the 2018-1984 difference help - with them doing it full-time (as a proper paid job) and you doing it in free time, every now and then ? As much as people praise them, do not forget, for one single moment, it was a full-time job. That's a pretty brutal difference... Imagine, you had 40-60 hours this week to work on this. And another 40-60 next week. 500-700 hrs across just 3 months. See my point ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladR Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 lucasfilm did it 1984.... Yeah, but that was in America! They had books like DeReAtari in 1982 and Mapping the Atari in 1983! My brain literally explodes into endless WTF loops, every single time I just try imagining being able to just entering a local bookstore and being able to buy a book like that. Imperialism certainly has its virtues, but you&me both know this shit was impossible behind Iron Curtain. While the Ataris somehow got smuggled in, the books or magazines never made it. On the topic of buying technical books, it was year 2004, full 15 years after Velvet Revolution, yet the ClusterFuckistan I was born in, was still holding "interrogation committees" when those gamedev American books I ordered from Amazon, ended up on the table of a local chieftain, after getting through customs. Questions like: 1. How dare you speak English? 2. What are you going to do with those books? 3. Why do these books have so many technical drawings ? 4. How do we know you won't create a guided missile ? There's a section on "navigation" here! 5. You understand we have to inform the government and ministry of this 6. What is this "3D engine" you are talking about ? 7. We are watching you Imagine trying to explain, to at-best-84-IQ police cretine, that you obtained the books to learn how "Americans code their 3D engines" (his quote, not mine). Even though the Russians pushed hard for each of their "colonies" to have a lot of math in schools, the Bell Curve doesn't care about their tanks/missiles, so it was futile to enforce on the population anyway. Now, if it wasn't year 2004, but, say, 1988, the best-case scenario of such conversation was a very short-lived forced labour "career" at Uranium mines. My point is that given the amount of publicly available technical information, the work of LucasArts on Atari is not really that groundbreaking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted May 25, 2018 Share Posted May 25, 2018 Interesting, wasn't aware of this difference. Well, it is a Commodore, after all ??? What does Commodore mean here? On the Atari you have the chance to change resolution and bits , get the most possible CPU speed. It's only the mode ANTIC D, where the "line blitter " of the ANTIC fills up 50% of the screen without the help of the CPU. Yeah, but what does the 2018-1984 difference help - with them doing it full-time (as a proper paid job) and you doing it in free time, every now and then ? As much as people praise them, do not forget, for one single moment, it was a full-time job. That's a pretty brutal difference... Imagine, you had 40-60 hours this week to work on this. And another 40-60 next week. 500-700 hrs across just 3 months. See my point ? That's the main point, why people should read what I'm writing. It helps a lot of saving development time. But, if the wasting of time is the cause for their projects, they may do as they were allowed to feel free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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