Why were Scaling 2D arcade games not brought to Home Systems?

[00010000]

I'd politely suggest you look up the work history of Ken Kutaragi and what he was doing on high end S.G.I workstations as he was well aware 3D was the future and it was his vision to bring advanced 3D into the home console market.

 

Sega was also very aware of it's importance but was arrogant enough to state no one other than Namco could touch it's arcade technology and Namco weren't planning a home console.

 

The original Saturn was designed to take on the 3DO and Jaguar.

 

When specs of the Playstation appeared, Sega panicked and rather than take the hardware back to the drawing board and take up Silicon Graphics offer of going for a new chipset from them, they added the second SH2 chip.

 

Development of the Saturn in 1992 the extra CPU being added in 1994 and it uses Quads at a time everyone was using polygons for 3D.

 

Even with the new hardware, Saturn was still seen as a 2D machine primarily.

 

 

As for the Jaguar..it was in development alongside the Atari Panther, a console designed purely as 2D powerhouse, yet Martin Brennan whilst at Atari in 1989 convinced Atari 3D was the way to go...Panther scrapped in favour of Jaguar which had been in R+D alongside it.

 

Some of this isn't *quite* accurate. In a way Sega was right about 5th gen consoles not touching their Model 2 or Model 3 boards in technical terms; nothing on those systems had the visual fidelity of arcade Daytona or Virtua Fighter 3, and most general accounts are that 5th gen 3D games have aged "poorly" (which I only agree with in terms of their visuals on technical terms, b/c artistically a lot of those games are still great and a lot of them still play great too).

 

Also regarding quads, well a large chunk of the industry was using triangles, but it was ubiquitous as it is today. And at that time the use of quads had advantages particularly given the speed of typical processors at the time. Moreover Sega's 3D arcade teams were very used to quads and even Nvidia's first 3D card was quad-based, so it could've panned out either way honestly if Saturn was managed better. After all, systems like PS2 were also pretty esoteric and hard to work with, but they also had the market behind them to make the pain worth putting up with to developers.

 

That kind of also leads into another point; I get the perception by many that Saturn was primarily a 2D machine, but it was always designed with 3D in mind from the get-go. However, getting good 3D was always going to be a challenge for any system that generation. Sega simply misread the market's hunger for 3D at the time and thought 2D would have another gen as the big driver in the home, while if people wanted really good 3D, they'd go to the arcades. So the initial Saturn specs seemed closer to something like Model 1 in terms of 3D but with support for a few things like texture-mapping I'm assuming, seeing as how 32X supported texture-mapping, only in Saturn's case via custom graphics chips instead of brute-force w/ a SH2.

 

So no I wouldn't say Sega was arrogant regarding 3D in home consoles around the time; they always planned for Saturn to support 3D, but they underestimated the market's thirst for 3D in the home. Ironically a lot of that thirst was built up from Sega's own 3D games, plus Namco's stuff like Ace Driver and Ridge Racer, so in hindsight it's easy to say "they should've know better", but remember Sega (and Nintendo) didn't have the production facilities of someone like Sony, nor the assembly processes etc.

 

Sony could eat the costs of pushing high-fidelity 3D in a home console by leveraging profits from their other divisions; Sega and Nintendo didn't enjoy that luxury to quite the same level (sure, Nintendo had handhelds and Sega had arcades, but we know what started happening with arcades in the late '90s), so home 3D for them would've needed to operate in a financial space that didn't bleed them too hard and that meant being more modest. on that note, Nintendo caught a lucky break w/ Silicon Graphics for N64, it's an opportunity Sega should've maybe capitalized on but it's evident their home teams were adapting to Saturn's design philosophy and, like Nintendo, Sega always prioritized in-house needs above 3rd parties.

 

I guess there's also the idea Sega intentionally limited Saturn 3D in order to keep their arcade efforts as the clear marquee ones. While it's fun to entertain the idea, I don't think '90s Sega, even a utterly idiotic as things got w/ SoJ on the business level, would have intentionally shot themselves so bad in the foot so as to purposely cripple momentum in an expanding home console market just to keep their arcade stuff looking strong. Especially considering such a Saturn would've made it an even better proposition in Japan where Nintendo was still dominating.

[00010000]

Actually a system like the jaguar would have a hard time running advanced 2D games, in fact, I'm a fan of the jaguar and I'm not even sure it can run Arcade Hard Drivin', I'm not even sure the Saturn can run Arcade Hard Drivin'.

 

Arcade hardware is tricky because it is advanced custom hardware made specifically for games, The only reason why Computers are so strong now is because almost all game development happens on PC today. Back then arcade machines were basically super computers made for games, hence why a lot of Arcade machines were based on military technology. A console in 1990 running high end 88-89 arcade games like Hard Drivin or Winning Run perfectly would likely cost $1400 or more at retail. No sane company was going to do that, so we ended up with Genesis and Super Nintendo games instead, with Neo-Geo being the high-end. That's why FMV was so popular, it was the only thing home machines could match 1:1 with arcade hardware for.

 

The reason why those old games like Ourrun were on the Saturn and not the "90's games" you want is because it's very likely the Saturn can't run those. One big misconception that needs to be squashed: Fast action-packed 2D games were much harder to make than 3D titles back then.

 

I think I can see what you're getting at; bespoke hardware has bespoke requirements. It's a lot like software emulation today; you need systems exponentially more powerful than the target platform in order to properly emulate said platform. Those super-scaler style 2D arcade games would've need exponentially more powerful custom 2D hardware in order to run them properly through software emulation since the 5th gen systems would've been using different processors with different microarchitectures altogether, hence different instruction sets, register calls etc.

 

The other option would've been to essentially reprogram the games from scratch for those 5th-gen systems, but by that point the costs likely outweighed the perceived benefits. And while Saturn was likely the best candidate that gen for those games, just going the software emulation method alone its 2D may not have been as exponentially more powerful to brute-force reproduction of those games as it'd of needed to be. And even just reprogramming the games from scratch, it may've been possible a lot of those 2D calculation would have to of been converted into 3D calculation, which again is a big time and money sink probably not worth the effort by that point.

 

Interesting way of framing it...

[Lost Dragon]

My point about Sega being arrogant about nobody bar Namco,being able to touch them in the realms of polygon 3D, was more along lines of it never occurring to them that someone new would enter the home console arena with hardware that could beat anything they had in their R+D labs.

 

They'd evaluated the 3DO and Jaguar, Nintendo's Project Reality was too far off to be seen as any real threat.

 

In their eyes, they had the clear blue water between themselves and their competitors.

 

Sony turned established thinking completely on it's head with the PlayStation.

 

Atari had entered thinking it would be fighting Commodore with the CD32 and Jaguar was designed to as Tramiel said, rip the guts out of the SNES and MD,Jaguar Mk II planned to take on next generation Sega and Nintendo hardware.

 

With a new player in the form of Sony, the old guard had a very rude awakening.

 

 

Quads might of been faster,but judging by the number of coders who moaned about the Saturn using them, they were not popular.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[JaguarVision]

 

I think I can see what you're getting at; bespoke hardware has bespoke requirements. It's a lot like software emulation today; you need systems exponentially more powerful than the target platform in order to properly emulate said platform. Those super-scaler style 2D arcade games would've need exponentially more powerful custom 2D hardware in order to run them properly through software emulation since the 5th gen systems would've been using different processors with different microarchitectures altogether, hence different instruction sets, register calls etc.

 

The other option would've been to essentially reprogram the games from scratch for those 5th-gen systems, but by that point the costs likely outweighed the perceived benefits. And while Saturn was likely the best candidate that gen for those games, just going the software emulation method alone its 2D may not have been as exponentially more powerful to brute-force reproduction of those games as it'd of needed to be. And even just reprogramming the games from scratch, it may've been possible a lot of those 2D calculation would have to of been converted into 3D calculation, which again is a big time and money sink probably not worth the effort by that point.

 

Interesting way of framing it...

 

I can load up a program, have a 3D poly render of a box, and animate it to spin. To have a similar visual effect with 2D would require more programming, processors that can handle sprite manipulation at a smooth framerate, and tricks to create the illusion that the 2D box is spinning like the 3D one by making it "seem" like it has a Z-axis and more than 4 sides.

 

Back in the 90's 3D was different than now, outside of arcades anyway. Now, 3D is highly detailed and requires a lot. Back then 3D was new technology that required power to run, but less work overall than to imitate 3D with 2D objects. Sears could have went to a supplier back then and thrown together a game machine that had 3D polygonal squares move around a room.That's why it took till the first Xbox to even remotely touch anything on the arcade with consistency. The 3D tech console manufacturers were using were basically low end parts. Arcade machines in the 90's where using either military technology or chips from companies that had a foot in massive tech projects. it's why despite how big other game companies were no one was touching Atari/Midway/Namco/Sega in arcades. Microprose was likely the last "average joe" company to put out insane arcade hardware.

[JaguarVision]

My point about Sega being arrogant about nobody bar Namco,being able to touch them in the realms of polygon 3D, was more along lines of it never occurring to them that someone new would enter the home console arena with hardware that could beat anything they had in their R+D labs.

 

They'd evaluated the 3DO and Jaguar, Nintendo's Project Reality was too far off to be seen as any real threat.

 

In their eyes, they had the clear blue water between themselves and their competitors.

 

Sony turned established thinking completely on it's head with the PlayStation.

 

Atari had entered thinking it would be fighting Commodore with the CD32 and Jaguar was designed to as Tramiel said, rip the guts out of the SNES and MD,Jaguar Mk II planned to take on next generation Sega and Nintendo hardware.

 

With a new player in the form of Sony, the old guard had a very rude awakening.

 

 

Quads might of been faster,but judging by the number of coders who moaned about the Saturn using them, they were not popular.

 

CD32 wasn't even released officially in NA.

 

Atari entered thinking they would win because they had 3D, they had no idea what 3DO was until the massive announcement that was hyped by all the magazines, and Atari couldn't change the jaguar because they didn't have any money. They couldn't even get the Jaguar into half the stores the Tg16 was still in because they didn't have the cash to produce enough quantity. SNES Star Fox came out the same year and the jaguar was much more capable than the FX-chip so Atari likely though they had a 1 or two year head start. If the Panther came out in 1991 as planned than thing may have turned out differently.

 

Also I'm curious about the 3DO thing, I don't think Sega was thinking about the 3DO with the Saturn because the 3DO is actually stronger than the 3D that was included in the original Saturn before they tossed in the VDP. Saturn Hardware originally was based on the flat polygons that the Model 1 produced. If Sega was considering the 3DO along with the Jagaur, when designing the Saturn, than you would think Panasonic would have caused Sega to toss in the VDP instead of Sony because 3DO games have texturing in their 3D games. Texture based 3D is why Sega paniced because that places the 3DO and PSX closer to Model 2 hardware. it's likely Sega had no idea what the 3DO was and was only trying to out due the jaguar and thought the Model 1 3D was more than enough. The 3DO actually released in japan the same year the Saturn came out.

[Lost Dragon]

Doesn't matter CD32 wasn't officially released in N.A, Atari had been fighting a bitter war with Commodore in the UK, the ST had be slaughtered once the Amiga dropped in price, the Falcon Vs The A1200 wasn't even a war.

 

Atari had seen key UK publishers and developers flock to Sega and Commodore.

 

Remember they wanted Aladdin for Jaguar which was out on the A1200,Virgin gave them Dragon.

 

Core Design had all of 1 Jaguar game in development,even that just a conversion from an aging Sega CD title.

 

Rebellion,Imagitec Design, HMS,Gremlin, Virgin, ATD etc all UK developers, Atari wanted them supporting Jaguar.

 

Panther? Not wishing to sound arrogant,but having spoken to various coders who dabbled with it,briefly, straight split.

 

Half thought it was fantastic hardware and could of bought Atari some breathing space,the others loathed it and say had it of been released,it would of done nothing to save Atari.

[Lost Dragon]

And as for Sega and 3DO...

 

According to former Sega CEO Tom Kalinske The 3DO Company was engaged in very serious talks for Sega to release 3DO. However, it was passed on by Sega due to concerns over cost.

 

I can only go by what's been claimed.

 

There might well of been many other factors,as is often the case in the industry.

 

Just taken this off the net:

 

 

'It seems that Sega of Japan was in fact talking with 3DO about licensing the hardware. The interesting thing is Sega was seriously considering supporting not only the 3DO but the follow-up console- the M2. This is interesting news that comes directly from Tom Kalinske himself in an interview with Revrob.com (link is dead).

 

Apparently we came very close to seeing a Sega 3DO console. It would be interesting to think how this would have fit in the bigger picture for Sega. Around this time they had the 32X, Sega CD, Saturn looming, Nomad and Game Gear in the portable market, PC game development and of course were making arcade games. That would have been quite a bit of additional headache for Sega to have assumed.

 

“We had meetings in Japan with Trip Hawkins, Kalinske recalls. These were “very serious discussions in Tokyo.” Quote from the interview with RevRob.com

 

Pretty serious, huh? Then there is this quote-

 

“We talked about the possibility of ‘Should Sega do a 3DO type of effort and combine with Trip on that machine?’” He continues, “I was not for that mainly because of the complexity of the product and the cost. The cost was very high.”

 

So it seems that Tom Kalinske was one of the winning voices in not going forward with a Sega branded 3DO console.

 

How cool, or catastrophic would it have been to have seen a 3DO console by Sega? Would it have delayed, or completely eliminated the Saturn?'

 

Source: Assemblergames

Edited September 8, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[JaguarVision]

Doesn't matter CD32 wasn't officially released in N.A, Atari had been fighting a bitter war with Commodore in the UK, the ST had be slaughtered once the Amiga dropped in price, the Falcon Vs The A1200 wasn't even a war.

 

Atari had seen key UK publishers and developers flock to Sega and Commodore.

 

Remember they wanted Aladdin for Jaguar which was out on the A1200,Virgin gave them Dragon.

 

Core Design had all of 1 Jaguar game in development,even that just a conversion from an aging Sega CD title.

 

Rebellion,Imagitec Design, HMS,Gremlin, Virgin, ATD etc all UK developers, Atari wanted them supporting Jaguar.

 

Panther? Not wishing to sound arrogant,but having spoken to various coders who dabbled with it,briefly, straight split.

 

Half thought it was fantastic hardware and could of bought Atari some breathing space,the others loathed it and say had it of been released,it would of done nothing to save Atari.

 

Yes it matters, Commodore was already fading fast and would be bankrupt the year after the jaguar was released. As for UK devs, the Jaguar brought some Commodore and Atari computer developers to the Jaguar but that was only to pad out the library. Atari wanted developers with a budget to produce amazing visual games on the Jaguar. Atari changed who they originally were going to partner with when it was clear the jaguar would need more than Amiga ports in order to solidify the jaguars head start.

 

Panther opinion is irrelevant, given what the jaguar ended up being due to bad management and bad design, the Panther and it's limited 3D effects at least would have won Atari praise and a advantage over the SNES and GENESIS and would give them time to plan a better console and gather developer support. In hindsight, releasing the Panther in 90 or 91 would have been a much better decision than scrapping it for the jaguar. Of course Atari didn't know how the jaguar was going to turn out so you can't really blame them.

 

 

And as for Sega and 3DO...

 

According to former Sega CEO Tom Kalinske The 3DO Company was engaged in very serious talks for Sega to release 3DO. However, it was passed on by Sega due to concerns over cost.

 

I can only go by what's been claimed.

 

There might well of been many other factors,as is often the case in the industry.

 

Just taken this off the net:

 

 

'It seems that Sega of Japan was in fact talking with 3DO about licensing the hardware. The interesting thing is Sega was seriously considering supporting not only the 3DO but the follow-up console- the M2. This is interesting news that comes directly from Tom Kalinske himself in an interview with Revrob.com (link is dead).

 

Apparently we came very close to seeing a Sega 3DO console. It would be interesting to think how this would have fit in the bigger picture for Sega. Around this time they had the 32X, Sega CD, Saturn looming, Nomad and Game Gear in the portable market, PC game development and of course were making arcade games. That would have been quite a bit of additional headache for Sega to have assumed.

 

“We had meetings in Japan with Trip Hawkins, Kalinske recalls. These were “very serious discussions in Tokyo.” Quote from the interview with RevRob.com

 

Pretty serious, huh? Then there is this quote-

 

“We talked about the possibility of ‘Should Sega do a 3DO type of effort and combine with Trip on that machine?’” He continues, “I was not for that mainly because of the complexity of the product and the cost. The cost was very high.”

 

So it seems that Tom Kalinske was one of the winning voices in not going forward with a Sega branded 3DO console.

 

How cool, or catastrophic would it have been to have seen a 3DO console by Sega? Would it have delayed, or completely eliminated the Saturn?'

 

Source: Assemblergames

 

3DO approached Sega to make games and to launch a 3Do console, all 3DO consoles have generally the same steps except minor changes to the processors. But that's not really Sega "looking at the 3DO" in mind when developing the Saturn. Saturn again, likely had no idea what the 3DO was planning or what it would do and already had prototypes of the Saturn.

What likely happened is that SOJ though it may have been a good idea at first but scrapped it due to Saturn prototypes. Since the would have had to produce the Sega 3DO's themselves anyway like Panasonic and others, they likely figured they would stick to hardware they have control over and would get the most profits if they succeeded.

 

I'm not convinced though that Sega knew what power or tech the 3DO actually had until its release. Because it's similar tech to what the PSX had, which made Sega freak out and add the VDP to the Saturn in the first place. I think Sega saw the jaguar, or rather SOA saw the jaguar and passed the info to SOJ, which resulted in the 32X to by time.

[Lost Dragon]

Panther opinion, when It comes from the very people who would of been producing the very software Atari would be putting out to try and take sales away from SNES and MD is hardly irrelevant.

 

What was in the works for Panther:

 

A conversion of Shadow Of The Beast.

Dino Dudes (allegedly)

Raiden (according to Martin Hooley)

Jeff Minter trying his hand at a Star Raiders-esq game.

The Crypt by Guildo H. which had begun life on the ill fated Konix multi system.

Rob Zydbel doing some original titles but he cannot remember what.

Tiertex had been given the go ahead to convert the awful Strider II.

Hand Made Software had done so test coding..

Ditto Scott D.Williamson.

Plasma Pong from Minter..

 

Your going to launch a console based on the above when the SNES and MD have the 16 bit console market tied up and then in Atari's on words...launch your successor some 9 to 12 months later?.

 

Peter Staddon Atari UK said Jaguar would of been ready to launch some 6-9 months after Panther.

 

 

Joel Sieder of Atari Corp didn't think Panther would have much of an impact, despite being better hardware than the SNES.

 

Bill Rehbock is supposed to of told Interplay original plan was for Panther to launch alongside Lynx, all Atari resources at 1 point geared up for such an event.

 

Bob Gleadow Atari UK M.D told press Panther was on back burner whilst Atari focused everything on making Lynx a success.

 

They didn't have the resources themselves or 3rd party support to launch 2 high end consoles at once.

 

If you've ever read the original Lynx team talk of what an uphill struggle it was to convince developers it was ok to support the Lynx now it was in Atari's hands, you get a good idea of how wary people were to risk development on Atari hardware.

 

 

As for Commodore on it's last legs, if you have UK teams converting games to the A1200 and CD32, which people were, your not going to have the resources to have them do Jaguar versions at the same time.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[JaguarVision]

Panther opinion, when It comes from the very people who would of been producing the very software Atari would be putting out to try and take sales away from SNES and MD is hardly irrelevant.

 

What was in the works for Panther:

 

A conversion of Shadow Of The Beast.

Dino Dudes (allegedly)

Raiden (according to Martin Hooley)

Jeff Minter trying his hand at a Star Raiders-esq game.

The Crypt by Guildo H. which had begun life on the ill fated Konix multi system.

Rob Zydbel doing some original titles but he cannot remember what.

Tiertex had been given the go ahead to convert the awful Strider II.

Hand Made Software had done so test coding..

Ditto Scott D.Williamson.

Plasma Pong from Minter..

 

Your going to launch a console based on the above when the SNES and MD have the 16 bit console market tied up and then in Atari's on words...launch your successor some 9 to 12 months later?.

 

As for Commodore on it's last legs, if you have UK teams converting games to the A1200 and CD32, which people were, your not going to have the resources to have them do Jaguar versions at the same time.

 

I think you are confusing the order of the posts, I said the panther would have been better releasing in 1990 or 1991 than scrapping it for the jagaur. Not sure where your 9-12 months alter comment came from.

If the Panther released in 1991 how would the SNES have the market tied up? Outside Japan the SNES was released in 91. Also the Genesis didn't start really taking off until 1991 either.

 

You didn't need to "convert" games to CD32 since the CD32 was an a1200 anyway. You'd just slap the game on a disc and add in write-in. Only earlier games had that issue.

[Lost Dragon]

I've updated the original post.

 

It was Peter Staddon of Atari UK who said had the Panther been launched, Atari would of been ready to launch the Jaguar 6 to 9 months later.

 

I didn't use Panther as a replacement for Jaguar, just the common thinking that had it been launched it would of bought Atari some wriggle room in the market (by giving Atari a presence and source of income) whilst Jaguar was delayed and better development tools designed for it, more bug testing on hardware done.

 

I've seen that concept put forward a lot over the years.

 

 

Panther hardware was bugged itself, it, let alone software for it, wouldn't of been ready until after SNES and MD were firmly established in the UK etc.

 

 

It would of needed a far stronger launch line up, than what Atari had planned.

 

 

As for Sega and original Saturn specs..i can remember reading the official Sega magazine at the time and it might of been something lost in translation, but they had Sega suggesting the 32X (or MARS) as it was back then, would be more powerful than the Saturn in some areas.

 

Not all CD32 games were port the A1200 version over, bang on a fancy intro, some CD music , job done.

 

People were adding extra levels etc to try and present the CD32 as a more attractive option or doing CD32 versions 1st, then cut back versions for the A1200.

 

 

I do remember the coders behind Saturn Panzer Dragoon games wondering what all the fuss was over coding for dual processors with the Saturn though, as they'd been working on coin op hardware for years and it was something of the normal for them.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Lost Dragon

[JaguarVision]

I've updated the original post.

 

It was Peter Staddon of Atari UK who said had the Panther been launched, Atari would of been ready to launch the Jaguar 6 to 9 months later.

 

I didn't use Panther as a replacement for Jaguar, just the common thinking that had it been launched it would of bought Atari some wriggle room in the market (by giving Atari a presence and source of income) whilst Jaguar was delayed and better development tools designed for it, more bug testing on hardware done.

 

I've seen that concept put forward a lot over the years.

 

 

Panther hardware was bugged itself, it, let alone software for it, wouldn't of been ready until after SNES and MD were firmly established in the UK etc.

 

 

It would of needed a far stronger launch line up, than what Atari had planned.

 

 

As for Sega and original Saturn specs..i can remember reading the official Sega magazine at the time and it might of been something lost in translation, but they had Sega suggesting the 32X (or MARS) as it was back then, would be more powerful than the Saturn in some areas.

 

Not all CD32 games were port the A1200 version over, bang on a fancy intro, some CD music , job done.

 

People were adding extra levels etc to try and present the CD32 as a more attractive option or doing CD32 versions 1st, then cut back versions for the A1200.

 

 

I do remember the coders behind Saturn Panzer Dragoon games wondering what all the fuss was over coding for dual processors with the Saturn though, as they'd been working on coin op hardware for years and it was something of the normal for them.

 

Panther was capable of limite 3D, bugged or not it would have had a major advantage, and considering the SNES didn't come out until late in Europe It really would only have the Genesis to worry about. In NA the SNES didn't release till 91 and the Genesis din't take off until 91, so I think a panther release in 90 or eve 91 would have been possible.

 

The 32X actually support my point SEGA had no idea what the 3DO was. Model 1 arcade hardware was superior to the Jaguar, the SNES FX chip, and the Virtua Racing Genesis chip. The fact that Sega thought a 32X would buy them time shows they had no idea what 3Do or Sony were producing.

 

If you were Sega back then and you saw those jaguar tech demos and things like "star fox" you'd think the Model 1 was still a year ahead of the competition and the Model 2 came out the year the 32X came out iirc.

[00010000]

As for Sega and original Saturn specs..i can remember reading the official Sega magazine at the time and it might of been something lost in translation, but they had Sega suggesting the 32X (or MARS) as it was back then, would be more powerful than the Saturn in some areas.

 

Just want to elaborate on this part a bit: I think we can all agree that in the end 32X isn't as capable as Saturn in terms of 3D or 2D, and a lot of that would have to do w/ its reliance on the MegaDrive's processors (plus 32X had issues with doing scrolling 2D backgrounds IIRC). However, since the 32X's 3D was done through software and didn't rely on features hard-coded to onboard GPU silicon, it could do both quads and triangles, whereas Saturn could only really do quads and you had to "fake" the triangles by joining two points on a quad (which basically means you're processing extra data that won't even be seen, wasting resources).

 

At least, that's what I've been led to believe watching the Digital Foundries 32X videos, which seem very well-informed imo. All the same one can assume the Saturn could've done triangles through software but then you'd have to add in the natural CPU overhead, plus the overhead in managing dual processors PLUS knowing you likely wouldn't be able to utilize built-in 3D features of the hardware without utilizing quads anyway.

[mbd30]

 

Just want to elaborate on this part a bit: I think we can all agree that in the end 32X isn't as capable as Saturn in terms of 3D or 2D, and a lot of that would have to do w/ its reliance on the MegaDrive's processors (plus 32X had issues with doing scrolling 2D backgrounds IIRC). However, since the 32X's 3D was done through software and didn't rely on features hard-coded to onboard GPU silicon, it could do both quads and triangles, whereas Saturn could only really do quads and you had to "fake" the triangles by joining two points on a quad (which basically means you're processing extra data that won't even be seen, wasting resources).

 

At least, that's what I've been led to believe watching the Digital Foundries 32X videos, which seem very well-informed imo. All the same one can assume the Saturn could've done triangles through software but then you'd have to add in the natural CPU overhead, plus the overhead in managing dual processors PLUS knowing you likely wouldn't be able to utilize built-in 3D features of the hardware without utilizing quads anyway.

 

Here's an interesting video about a Sega Saturn 3D graphics card for the PC from 1995. Anybody have one of these?

 

[phoenixdownita]

I borrowed one of those NV1 boards shortly when it came out, returned once there was no software aside the 3 "saturn" ports (it was not Saturn compatible). I replaced it with a Voodoo 1 first then a dual SLI Voodoo 2.

BTW that card is from 1995 so yeah the market already decided were to go. Voodoo 1 was released in 1996. The S3 ViRGE was release in 95 as well.

The Pantium MMX was introudced at the end of '96 (and it was all about enabling faster 3D).

 

 

Wrt the OP, what is the list of games he refers to?

Keep in mind Virtua Fighter hit the arcades in '92 and Daytona USA in '93, Sega Rally in '95 and they were incredible successes setting the trends.

The last "superscaler" board from Sega was the System 32 (and the updated System Multi 32) launched in 1990, and there the list of "super scaler" very fast styled game is slim with the last one in 96 (Slipstream) apparently released only in South America.

 

Anyhow this is what I found:

https://segaretro.org/Sega_System_32

 

What other games are we referring to?

 

The PC in those years '92-'96 was in Doom, Heretic, Hexen, Descent, Duke-Nukem-3D mode, the consoles launched were CD32, FM-Towns Marty, Pioneer LaserActive, Jaguar, 3DO, PC-FX, 32X, Saturn, PS1, N64. The last 4 got something one way or another (N64 had the grammatical incorrect series Cruis'n *** ... maybe PS1 had none can't remember).

For comparison the 3DO had Need for Speed in 94 and the pack-in game was Crash-n-Burn so already 3D, and NFS was a huge success back in the days.

CD32 didn't have the horsepower, FM Towns Marty got the earlier Turbo Outrun and Galaxy Force ported (and also Chase HQ, one of the best port around back then).

The LaserActive was there to play laser games and really it was just a Genesis/PCE so no dice.

The PC-FX was mostly an FMV machine, unclear if it could push "superscaler" level games but in JP at the time nobody cared to even try and maybe that's something right there telling you the publishers saw the superscaler tech a dying breed and had no interest in attempting ports of likely barely known arcades.

We're left with the Jaguar and we know how that went down, it had the potential but at the time it was already 3D or die (the pack-in was Cybermorph for crying out loud).

[atarilovesyou]

I give up.

 

You say it's revisionist history, yet you can go to any number of sites which have PDF and JPEG files of the UK and US press at the time and read for yourself how reviewers treated games that still used plain polygons or limited texture mapping, let alone how sprite based racers like Super Burnout were reviewed.

 

Read interviews with likes of ATD who will tell you Atari had seen Shockwave on the 3DO and wanted them to fully texture map Battlemorph so it could be seen to compete.

 

Or Martin Hooley from Imagitec Design explaining why Freelancer had been moved to the much more capable Playstation ...

 

Or Martin Brownlaw talking about Missile Command 3D.

 

The information is well documented.

 

People like myself who grew up with the Sinclair ZX81 and through the years moved from computers to consoles and vice versa...

 

Who bought a Mega CD on day 1 expecting Sega to use the hardware to bring better than MD versions of it's sprite based coin ops into the home..who went from that system to the Jaguar and then the Playstation, we were avid magazine buyers and readers.

 

We watched the trends as they unfolded.

 

You've come here asking for information, people have given honest answers with the reasoning behind them and now you say we are revising the very history we lived through?.

This is a point I was trying to make in an earlier thread: people aee interested and have questions from the time period, yet go to sources like magazine reviews (much more biased than other sources due to the revenue angle) or simply sales numbers, which do not tell the whole story (does one only need look at body count to accurately represent what happened during a conflict?).

 

I don't know the age of the OP, and I don't want to tell anyone to get off my lawn, but when people here who lived through those times offer their time to give their experience, that's as close as you're going to get to what the biggest real-people enthusiasts thought about any given topic. And sure, it can be biased too...somebody living in a town of 1000 people had, although completely legit and respectable, a much different gaming experience than someone who lived right smack in the middle of New York or California during those times. Not really the case today with the internet, so keep that in mind as well. Biased fanboys are easy to spot, but when you read the great info and experiences in a thread like this, soak it in first, ask questions later...realize the first person accounts of people who lived those times is a valuable resource.

 

Otherwise, why bother asking the questions in the first place. Just go read some articles. But then, how would I have known how popular the Sega MS was in Brazil? Or about the popularity and success of the Saturn in Japan? Or the vibes of the Uk scene and its gamers? This kind of knowledge is shared first in places like this, and it's worth it to listen first.

 

Anyways, take it for what it's worth.

[enoofu]

Home systems with scaling

Systems / Chips Year Zooming / Scaling Rotation

Commodore 64 1982 1, 2× integer No

Sega Master System 1985 1, 2× integer, 1, 2× vertical Background tile mirroring

Game Gear 1, 2× integer, 1, 2× vertical Background tile mirroring

Sharp X68000 1987 1, 2× integer Horizontal and vertical mirroring

Fujitsu FM Towns 1989 1, 2× vertical, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5×horizontal Horizontal and vertical mirroring

Neo Geo 1990 Sprite shrinking Horizontal and vertical mirroring

Super Famicom & SNES 1990 Background, affine Background affine rotation and sprite mirroring

Amiga (AGA) 1992 Vertical by display list No

Atari Jaguar 1993 Yes, anisotropic Yes, affine

Sega Saturn 1994 Yes, anisotropic Yes, affine and distortion

Sony PlayStation 1994 Yes, anisotropic Yes, affine

Game Boy Advance 2001 Yes, affine Yes, affine

Nintendo DS 2004 Yes, affine Yes, affine

Systems / Chips Year Zooming / Scaling Rotation

Last major arcade board with Scaling was

Hyper Neo Geo 64 1997 Yes, anisotropic Yes, affine

https://www.giantbomb.com/sprite-scaling/3015-7122/

Edited September 9, 2018 by enoofu

[Flojomojo]

Here's an interesting video about a Sega Saturn 3D graphics card for the PC from 1995. Anybody have one of these?

I vaguely remember that. I never had one, but I note that the only "Saturn" thing about this is the compatibility with the controllers. It's designed for running PC games, and Virtua Fighter PC is based off of the Saturn Remix. It's not a game-console-on-a-card like the 3DO Blaster.

 

I borrowed one of those NV1 boards shortly when it came out, returned once there was no software aside the 3 "saturn" ports (it was not Saturn compatible). I replaced it with a Voodoo 1 first then a dual SLI Voodoo 2.

BTW that card is from 1995 so yeah the market already decided were to go. Voodoo 1 was released in 1996. The S3 ViRGE was release in 95 as well.

Pretty sure you could find the other stuff on abandonware sites like the link above if you really cared to. Apart from the higher resolutions, I generally preferred the Saturn versions over their PC ports. I guess SEGA agrees, otherwise wouldn't we be seeing those games on GOG by now? Here's the wishlist to vote on them.

[mbd30]

I vaguely remember that. I never had one, but I note that the only "Saturn" thing about this is the compatibility with the controllers. It's designed for running PC games, and Virtua Fighter PC is based off of the Saturn Remix. It's not a game-console-on-a-card like the 3DO Blaster.

 

Pretty sure you could find the other stuff on abandonware sites like the link above if you really cared to. Apart from the higher resolutions, I generally preferred the Saturn versions over their PC ports. I guess SEGA agrees, otherwise wouldn't we be seeing those games on GOG by now? Here's the wishlist to vote on them.

 

According to the video it's also similar to the Saturn in how it uses quads instead of triangles.

[Gentlegamer]

Can everyone agree, that at least graphically, home 3D would have been better off waiting until Dreamcast, giving us one last home 2D era?

[00010000]

Can everyone agree, that at least graphically, home 3D would have been better off waiting until Dreamcast, giving us one last home 2D era?

 

Yeah, definitely agreed w/ that. That's also partly what Sega thought at the time and is part of the reason (but definitely not the only reason) Saturn was intended to be a 2D/3D hybrid, with 3D notably beyond other platforms of the time but not at the level of what the Saturn eventually was capable of, or the PS1 for that matter.

 

And when you look at 5th gen games on technical terms (ignoring artistic liberties)..the 3D really is kind of wonky. That said, the newness of it all to so many home console gamers (myself included, even tho I did still play Genesis alongside those 3D arcade games and PS1 stuff at a friend's house) made that a non-issue except for the super-purists.

 

OTOH, had we not gotten 3D in homes until Dreamcast, I'm not sure if many of the franchises we have today like Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid etc. would've came about, or at the very least, would've had VERY different initial versions that were more like souped-up 2D games with tons of sprite scaling and zooming/rotation effects etc...

 

...actually, just thinking that makes me REALLY want to see what 2D versions of those games on 32-bit 2D powerhouse consoles would've looked like. I guess something like RE would've been more like that PC-FX game Team Innocent using 2D sprites for the characters and enemies and detailed 2D backdrops like a cross between Alone in the Dark and Resident Evil. MGS...I'm not so sure.

 

At the very least, we probably wouldn't have gotten arcade conversions like Sega Rally, 3D fighters like Tekken and Virtua Fighter would've been 2D fighters and probably much closer to Street Fighter as a result, Gran Turismo probably would've never happened etc. It's a timeline that's both tantalizing and somewhat frightening.

[Flojomojo]

Can everyone agree, that at least graphically, home 3D would have been better off waiting until Dreamcast, giving us one last home 2D era?

And give up Virtua Fighter (1+2), Daytona USA, Ridge Racer, Tekken (1+2), Colony Wars, Panzer Dragoon (1+2), Final Fantasy 7, Bushido Blade, Wipeout (1+2), Tempest 2000, Doom, Duke Nukem, SEGA Rally, and so many more?

 

You must be out of your GD-ROM mind!!

[Flojomojo]

According to the video it's also similar to the Saturn in how it uses quads instead of triangles.

Weird. I guess that's yet another case where innovation loses out to market leadership.

Nice Wikipedia article with a list of supported software: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NV1

[JaguarVision]

And give up Virtua Fighter (1+2), Daytona USA, Ridge Racer, Tekken (1+2), Colony Wars, Panzer Dragoon (1+2), Final Fantasy 7, Bushido Blade, Wipeout (1+2), Tempest 2000, Doom, Duke Nukem, SEGA Rally, and so many more?

 

You must be out of your GD-ROM mind!!

 

You didn't really play FF7 for 3D per say, more for the CG anime cutscenes and battle screens.

 

 

 

Can everyone agree, that at least graphically, home 3D would have been better off waiting until Dreamcast, giving us one last home 2D era?

 

NOOOOOOOO.

 

2D games during the PSX era focused more on anime cutscenes and flashing lights than actual good sprite work and most of the sprites were blurry. Rayman remained contender for best looking 2D game for years and it should have been surpassed much earlier.

Can everyone agree, that at least graphically, home 3D would have been better off waiting until Dreamcast, giving us one last home 2D era?

 

2D games didn't really look much better than SNES/Neogeo untilt eh DC so no not really.

 

I mean Rayman was like king of 2D sprite animation for years and that came out in 95. Most of the 2D games on the PSX and Sat seemed more focused on have anime cutscenes that really good sprite work and also a lot of those sprites look blurry in many games.

 

[JaguarVision]

If Sega Saturn was a 2D machine we might have seen more of what the new tech could do for 2D gaming sadly, 2D fell to the wayside to 3D.