Intellivision ntsc rgb mod design help

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

37 minutes ago, mattyv316 said:

Yes, I am using Fred's mod. I did just purchase an RGB board from @the_crayon_king on eBay, so I want to see how that differs.

As for the TV, I have had the same behavior on 3 different TVs (Sony, Samsung, and LG). I am not sure if the issue is on the mod, RetroTink, or the LTO side. 

 

Right on! Guess I'll grab a crayon king RGB kit too. The color palates alone might be worth it. ?

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

21 minutes ago, aleomark said:

Its possible still to get an rgb board for intellivision?

The Fred/juice RGB mod is long out of production.

Not sure about Emerson's.

Looks like crayon king is the only one currently available.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284134846315 ?

[the_crayon_king]

1 hour ago, SiLic0ne t0aD said:

The Fred/juice RGB mod is long out of production.

Not sure about Emerson's.

Looks like crayon king is the only one currently available.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/284134846315 ?

@YannAros has something too I believe. Keep in mind so far I am only aware of working video on that cheapo HD SCART to HDMI scaler, the XRGB, Datapath (capture card) and using a CRT. Anything else is up in the air at this point. Line doublers like the OSSC will absolutely not work with that board. It is something that can be resolved in the far future with a FPGA (instead of a CPLD).

 

I think the issue is sync in some instances and the resolution in others; or maybe a combination of those two things. I haven't heard anything about the OSSC being able to support sub 240 resolution inputs but if you guys know something I don't let me know.

[YannAros]

Hi,

 

My mod has not yet been tested on NTSC models, theoreticaly it works but before going further I'm waiting test results from @-^CrossBow^-

It's however proven as working on SECAM (modified PAL) models and has the signals are taken before the SECAM modification it works for sure on PAL models.

I do not have all those models and can't guide on how to install the mod in all variants.

 

Edited January 11, 2021 by YannAros

[Ikrananka]

7 hours ago, the_crayon_king said:

@YannAros has something too I believe. Keep in mind so far I am only aware of working video on that cheapo HD SCART to HDMI scaler, the XRGB, Datapath (capture card) and using a CRT. Anything else is up in the air at this point. Line doublers like the OSSC will absolutely not work with that board. It is something that can be resolved in the far future with a FPGA (instead of a CPLD).

 

I think the issue is sync in some instances and the resolution in others; or maybe a combination of those two things. I haven't heard anything about the OSSC being able to support sub 240 resolution inputs but if you guys know something I don't let me know.

I'd be keen to know for certain if it's compatible with a Retrotink-2X.

[the_crayon_king]

12 minutes ago, Ikrananka said:

I'd be keen to know for certain if it's compatible with a Retrotink-2X.

From their webpage "Retrotink supports 240p/288p/480i/576i component, S-Video and composite inputs."

None of the mod kits currently out can put out 240 or higher for the Intellivision so none of those will work on the retrotink, OSSC, etc.

 

If there is some other kit in the future it will need to be using a FPGA to double the output resolution of the intellivision and then center it into a 240p frame. Or whatever even integer scale will fit into whatever end resolution. I am working toward this end but the CPLD I am using currently does not have enough horsepower.

[Ikrananka]

@the_crayon_king  Thanks for the clarification.  Looking forward to seeing what you come up with for 240p output.  I'll definitely be looking to buy one when they're available.

[imstarryeyed]

Just found out about this mod it looks very interesting,  I am an NTSC model 2 owner who is really looking for an RGB mod.  I have a commodore  1084 monitor and an atari st color monitor that I use for rgb.

 

Thank you for all of your hard work, it's appreciated. 

 

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

Finally scored a Retrotink SCART and I'm happy to report the Juice/Fred K RGB mod looks great through the Retrotink, in to my Vizio TV. No issues yet, as previously mentioned by someone else. Surprisingly not as clear as the Chinese scaler though.. noticed a touch of 'color bleed' (noticeable with Reds) but at least my RGB N64 looks amazing.. Blows the OSSC out of the water on that, particularly with the "smoothing" filter setting on. Fake Scanlines look pretty good too, though a touch too dark for my tastes, but still nice nonetheless. I'll probably continue to use this for now on, at least with anything running Scart. Guess I can finally retire the Chinese upscaler.

[mattyv316]

2 hours ago, SiLic0ne t0aD said:

Finally scored a Retrotink SCART and I'm happy to report the Juice/Fred K RGB mod looks great through the Retrotink, in to my Vizio TV. No issues yet, as previously mentioned by someone else. Surprisingly not as clear as the Chinese scaler though.. noticed a touch of 'color bleed' (noticeable with Reds) but at least my RGB N64 looks amazing.. Blows the OSSC out of the water on that, particularly with the "smoothing" filter setting on. Fake Scanlines look pretty good too, though a touch too dark for my tastes, but still nice nonetheless. I'll probably continue to use this for now on, at least with anything running Scart. Guess I can finally retire the Chinese upscaler.

Do you have an LTO cart to test? Although I have had luck with my INTV, fred k RGB, and RetroTink 2x scart, I run into problems when I throw the LTO into the mix. Navigating the LTO menu seems to drop signal quite a bit once you start paging down the LTO menu.

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

3 hours ago, mattyv316 said:

Do you have an LTO cart to test? Although I have had luck with my INTV, fred k RGB, and RetroTink 2x scart, I run into problems when I throw the LTO into the mix. Navigating the LTO menu seems to drop signal quite a bit once you start paging down the LTO menu.

 

Yessir, that's what I'm using & what's pictured - an Lto Flash. I did notice a little flicker (for lack of better words) when scrolling through the menu, but it wasn't game breaking or anything like what you described. Seems like there is something going on with the timing/sync when going through Lto menus though, I won't deny that. However, based on your experience and my own, what I'm noticing is it seems to all boil down to how your TV handles these signals.. Some work better than others. I hate this Vizio d43f at times, but it's been great as far as handling old school consoles and whatnot. I'm curious how these other RGB mods work though.. I'd like to try Emerson's at some point and I already have the KrayonKing kit. Just need to pick up a spare Inty or two.

Edited February 10, 2021 by SiLic0ne t0aD

[the_crayon_king]

2 hours ago, SiLic0ne t0aD said:

 

Yessir, that's what I'm using & what's pictured - an Lto Flash. I did notice a little flicker (for lack of better words) when scrolling through the menu, but it wasn't game breaking or anything like what you described. Seems like there is something going on with the timing/sync when going through Lto menus though, I won't deny that. However, based on your experience and my own, what I'm noticing is it seems to all boil down to how your TV handles these signals.. Some work better than others. I hate this Vizio d43f at times, but it's been great as far as handling old school consoles and whatnot. I'm curious how these other RGB mods work though.. I'd like to try Emerson's at some point and I already have the KrayonKing kit. Just need to pick up a spare Inty or two.

Fred and I most likely have differences in our sync. I did a minor correction of sync that might possibly make things worse. It looked better on my oscilloscope but made no difference on the functionality of the devices I own.

If Fred's works and mine doesn't then that will be very interesting.

 

I was under the impression that none of these line doublers could be made to work with Intellivision RGB kits. Not because of sync but because of the resolution. Now I do not know what to think.

 

At any rate, I spent a incredible amount of time making corrections to sync that can be flashed to these boards.

I never ended up using it because all of my devices work with the code I currently use (and the correction would remove YPbPR and palette support). If this correction can make this work better on the LTO or retrotink etc. then I would consider implementing it.

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I just received in that cheap scart to HDMI upscaler/converter in the mail yesterday so I will be @the_crayon_king's and @YannAros's kits another try with my Sears SVA possibly today to see if I can get more stable video from them. I wasn't able to get anything from Crayon's kit at all with my OSSC setup, but one thing I didn't try as I don't have a way to do it currently, was to try and run the RGB straight through my Extron as I don't have any RGB BNC cables for that though I can get them. But as the converter was cheap, I will give that a shot and see if that gives me better results and report back.

 

[mattyv316]

Ok, so I finally installed Crayola's RGB board in my SSVA. I was able to compare it to the Fred K RGB in my INTV 3. First off, neither RGB mods work on the OSSC. No shocker there. I was able to test connected via RetroTink 2x Scart and a RetroTink/Retro Gaming Cables Rad2x for Genesis 2 (all my INTV RGB mods are configured with the Genesis 2 9 pin mini-din).

 

Crayola's RGB in my SSVA with the 2xScart:

 

 

 

Crayola's RGB in SSVA with Rad2x:

 

 

INTV 3/Super Pro System w/ Fred K RGB and 2x Scart:

 

And finally INTV 3/Super Pro System w/ Fred K RGB and Rad2x ( I sincerely apologize, but these pics are pretty gross):

 

Let me know what you think of the color differences between the 2 mods connected via 2xScart

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Can you show a pic of the board you got from Crayon King? The one I have I can't get it to produce any picture at all form it but I am having luck with the RGB board from Yannick in my SSVA. Actually my SSVA is only an SVA in appearance. The original mainboard 20 years ago died on me and so I actually have a standard Mattel 2609 mainboard in my SVA shell. Still...

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

@YannAros I sent you a PM detailing my results after installing your kit again using the inexpensive SCART to HDMI scaler/converter.

 

But to give a screen shot from my phone off my display:

 

 

[mattyv316]

20 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Can you show a pic of the board you got from Crayon King? The one I have I can't get it to produce any picture at all form it but I am having luck with the RGB board from Yannick in my SSVA. Actually my SSVA is only an SVA in appearance. The original mainboard 20 years ago died on me and so I actually have a standard Mattel 2609 mainboard in my SVA shell. Still...

 

Here you go

[+-^CrossBow^-]

29 minutes ago, mattyv316 said:

Here you go

Yeap, looks the same only I couldn't get anything from mine. Only difference was I removed the 75Ω resistors off the output lines since my SCART cable has that stuff in the SCART housing already. Hmm...

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

On 2/10/2021 at 6:14 PM, mattyv316 said:

Here you go

Meant to ask, did you connect your +5 and Gnd off the pins from the color IC itself or source them elsewhere on the system? I attached ground from mine along the side of the PCB where the ground runs all along it, and sourced my +5 directly after the Ferrite bead of the +5 from the power ribbon cable. I also put the resistors back in and nothing. The best I was able to manage after some rework was a very dark image that I could just barely make out was the controller test screen from my 201 test cart. I'm waiting on Crayon King to finish up his next revision to give it a try. If you have it working on the Tink2x and Rad2x, that gives hope it would work through HDRetrovision cables and that in turn, should work on the OSSC. Granted it requires using HDRetrovision cables but something perhaps. 

 

Only think with HDR cables is that they require composite sync and do NOT use C-sync or Sync. I already attempted to connect up the composite output from my composite upgrade installed in the system but that didn't produce anything as again, the sync signal to begin with isn't really there in a useful way. Composite seems to not need it but that could also be why Composite output produces inconsistent results when used.

 

 

[mattyv316]

15 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Meant to ask, did you connect your +5 and Gnd off the pins from the color IC itself or source them elsewhere on the system? I attached ground from mine along the side of the PCB where the ground runs all along it, and sourced my +5 directly after the Ferrite bead of the +5 from the power ribbon cable. I also put the resistors back in and nothing. The best I was able to manage after some rework was a very dark image that I could just barely make out was the controller test screen from my 201 test cart. I'm waiting on Crayon King to finish up his next revision to give it a try. If you have it working on the Tink2x and Rad2x, that gives hope it would work through HDRetrovision cables and that in turn, should work on the OSSC. Granted it requires using HDRetrovision cables but something perhaps. 

 

Only think with HDR cables is that they require composite sync and do NOT use C-sync or Sync. I already attempted to connect up the composite output from my composite upgrade installed in the system but that didn't produce anything as again, the sync signal to begin with isn't really there in a useful way. Composite seems to not need it but that could also be why Composite output produces inconsistent results when used.

 

 

I wired everything (other than audio) from the color IC. I will try to open the console up again and get some detailed pics of the install I did. Might not get to it for a few days though.

One thing I do remember I had an issue with was that my GND wire that runs from the RGB board out to the mini-din popped off the port shielding when I was re-assembling the mini-din and pushing it back through. I did not get a picture at first. When I soldered that GND back on the mini-din outer shield, it was fine and produce the pics in my post above.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

No idea on mine and I've offered to send it back to Crayon King for analysis, but I think he would rather wait until his next revision is done. That's fine and I plan to order and test it when it does become available. I have Yannick's RGB working for the time being.

 

[the_crayon_king]

6 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

No idea on mine and I've offered to send it back to Crayon King for analysis, but I think he would rather wait until his next revision is done. That's fine and I plan to order and test it when it does become available. I have Yannick's RGB working for the time being.

 

 

I am getting the retrotink around the 1st.
I just think it would be wise to wait till I have confirmed compatibility with the Retrotink with the new code (on my end) before sending out any more.

So that all the boards past X date are all on the same code.

 

I can't get a LTO so it seems worth it to send one to matty even if it ends up needing to be replaced.

If you want one to replace the one you have earlier I can send it sooner I just can't guarantee it will function on the retrotink.

 

If the new code remains the same compatibility wise with the LTO + retrotink that will actually be surprising.

Since the newest code's sync should look exactly the same as all the other RGB mods that are out there.

 

I don't want to guess about too much without some of this stuff in front of me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by the_crayon_king

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

 
I am getting the retrotink around the 1st.
I just think it would be wise to wait till I have confirmed compatibility with the Retrotink with the new code (on my end) before sending out any more.
So that all the boards past X date are all on the same code.
 
I can't get a LTO so it seems worth it to send one to matty even if it ends up needing to be replaced.
If you want one to replace the one you have earlier I can send it sooner I just can't guarantee it will function on the retrotink.
 
If the new code remains the same compatibility wise with the LTO + retrotink that will actually be surprising.
Since the newest code's sync should look exactly the same as all the other RGB mods that are out there.
 
I don't want to guess about too much without some of this stuff in front of me.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Glad you're working towards the Retrotink compatibility. You say those of us that already purchased your kits can send our boards back to be reflashed with new firmware when it's ready? I have one of your kits, which I haven't installed yet, but I definitely want the Retrotink compatibility, so I'll wait.

[the_crayon_king]

24 minutes ago, SiLic0ne t0aD said:

Glad you're working towards the Retrotink compatibility. You say those of us that already purchased your kits can send our boards back to be reflashed with new firmware when it's ready? I have one of your kits, which I haven't installed yet, but I definitely want the Retrotink compatibility, so I'll wait.

I think what I have made in the past is compatible already given mattyv316's results. I just need to confirm the new code works as well on the retrotink.

It's confusing because the oldest code has the same sync as the newest code; the stuff made sometime before the 11th had code that added 3 pulses (which does work with the retrotink); but looking at those 3 pulses it shouldn't be better than not having those 3 pulses. Which makes me think something else is going on in regards to the LTO and that both codes will probably work on the retrotink. It will be interesting to see in either case.

 

I am doing more of 1XX01 instead of 1XXX1 (for sync) which should look exactly the same but if something else is triggering when using the LTO then that might be a better explanation of why sync drops out more on one mod kit vs the others.  That would make far more sense than those 3 random pulses being useful but I cannot rule that out.

 

TLDR I really need to get a LTO.