Alley Cat now available on cartridge!!

[Super-Genius!]

Alley Cat is now available on cartridge! This masterpiece was created

by Bill Williams. What a FUN game to play!! Until now, it has only been

available in disk form.

 

Click here for an image of the cart.

 

I would like to thank Andrew H. for his help in testing the final version.

You can order your copy by going to http://www.sunmark.com

 

Here is a screenshot:

 

[Heaven/TQA]

i can remember me playing alley cat for hours & days... one masterpieve as i find it unique & outstanding, uses all facilities of atari computers, has nothing to do with "killing" space ship... it's kind of nintendo game... fresh idea... i compare it with mr. moskito... a rare new game idea...

 

hve

 

ps. and the sampled "miao" of the cat is brilliant...

[Lord-Chaos]

i can remember me playing alley cat for hours & days... one masterpieve as i find it unique & outstanding, uses all facilities of atari computers, has nothing to do with "killing" space ship... it's kind of nintendo game... fresh idea... i compare it with mr. moskito... a rare new game idea...

 

hve

 

ps. and the sampled "miao" of the cat is brilliant...

 

Yes,I agree.This is one of my favourite games,too.Played it for hours.I have bought the game on cassette 15 years ago ...

 

And the graphics are really good.This game shows , that ATARI games can look great.The ATARI version certainly is the best ,far better looking than the PC CGA version.

 

Thimo

[Goochman]

For those that havent played this game it is worth it. I was floored by the sound effects and graphics when it first came out - I finally found a game that used the 8bit in the way it should with the colors and such.

 

Too bad more games werent released with this quality in mind

[Avram]

Have to agree with Heaven that Alleycat is like a Nintendo idea in that it's such a novel concept amongst the usual computer game genres. Bill Williams wrote some really original software - Necromancer, Salmon run - and did maximise the capabilities of the atari.

 

Anyone know of any articles on him or his software? So far, all I've found on him is a listing at the giant list of game programmers - http://www.dadgum.com/giantlist/list.html

[Goochman]

Salmons Run - another fun classic

[Tempest]

I only had the PC CGA version growing up (actually my friend had it on his PCjr). I could never do that board where you have to drink the milk out of all the dog's bowls. Especially at the higher levels that screen was tough!

 

Tempest

[Super-Genius!]

I could never do that board where you have to drink the milk out of all the dog's bowls. Especially at the higher levels that screen was tough!

 

That is tough!! How do you do that without getting MANGLED by the dog??

I have never been able to do that screen! Any advice would be appreciated!!

 

Mark

[Tempest]

What you need to do is first make sure you're not standing on the dog, as that's pretty much instant death. YOu need to approach the bowl from the other side of the dog and then watch the dog's eyes to see how awake he is. When both eyes open up get out of there! It's basically a patience thing as you need to keep backing off every time the dog is about to wake up. It takes time, and at the higher levels its not worth it. I usually just jump right back out the window.

 

Tempest

[jindroush]

Stupid question: why is this game 30x more expensive than the multicart one? Are you paying royalties to Mr.Williams?

 

If the max is 512k and rest of the expenses are constant this seems rather unfair (read rip-off) to the people, as you can always release it on the multicart (for example with other Synapse/Synsoft games).

 

Offtopic (concerning the multicarts): Not mentioning the need of the 400/800 machine for some games when you can drag the translator on the cartridge.

 

Just my 2c.

[Super-Genius!]

Stupid question: why is this game 30x more expensive than the multicart one?

 

First, it is NOT 30 times more expensive!! In fact it is LESS than

the Multi-Cart. And one thing you are not taking into consideration is the

fact that Alley Cat was a disk game ONLY!!!!!!!! Do you have any idea or

concept of how many countless hours it takes to convert the code from

a disk game and make it a cartridge game?

 

If the max is 512k...

The maximum is NOT 512K it is 1M!

 

...as you can always release it on the multicart

 

We are NEVER going to release these disk games on a MultiCart!!

[jindroush]

Stupid question: why is this game 30x more expensive than the multicart one?

 

First, it is NOT 30 times more expensive!! In fact it is LESS than

the Multi-Cart.

 

Okay, so it's 20 something more expensive. Does that make a difference?

 

And one thing you are not taking into consideration is the

fact that Alley Cat was a disk game ONLY!!!!!!!!  Do you have any idea or

concept of how many countless hours it takes to convert the code from

a disk game and make it a cartridge game?

 

Yup, I have idea. If Mr.N uses the code I gave him, it takes about 5 minutes to do single stage exe (maximally).

 

The maximum is NOT 512K it is 1M!

 

I thought you're using 29f040 maximally. Okay, in such case also 30 games in a multicart is too low number. If I take about 20 kbs per game uncompressed, you can stuff there about 50 games.

 

We are NEVER going to release these disk games on a MultiCart!!

 

Don't shout that loud. I can hear you.

[Bryan]

Stupid question: why is this game 30x more expensive than the multicart one? Are you paying royalties to Mr.Williams?

 

By the way, Bill Williams died a few years ago.

 

-Bry

[Jetboot Jack]

Jindroush,

 

I have your International Karate Cart (from Video 61), could you comment on how that was done and the ROM size/system you employed? Since that game (and Preppie 1&2) only cost $20...?

 

I dug out my old games -- Alleycat is a single load from cassette or disc (at least on English software's compilations) it seems. I would like to understand the pricing system on these new carts -- I've not bought any more since I got MULE. Surely it was harder to get MULE on cart since it is a multloader than say Alleycat or Rampage.

 

sTeVE

[jindroush]

The price: this is Lance's domain, I don't know anything about that

 

The system: I've used Lance's Williams64 bankswitching cart

 

How it was done:

First I cut the disk image in pieces:

One screen is 4096, there's 7 of them = 28672

Title pic with dl is 8272

Main code data is 37120

Our banners is 2240

Loaders and such stuff is 416

 

Total: 76720

Cart size: 65536

 

Then I compressed the large static chunks of data:

Title pic was compressed to 2847 bytes (34%)

Main code was compressed to 23635 bytes (64%)

 

Created the exe (I use special cart exe loader) and put the whole stuff in correct cartridge layout.

Main executable (unpacker, exe-loader, banner, title, game, cart driver) is then 29184 long exe file, screen

data left unpacked, just to allow shorter 'cart driver' code.

 

In the result, it leaves me with 7168 bytes free on the cart

 

Reading of the additional screen data was done this way: I found sio reading code in main

executable, then I replaced it by jsr to 'cart driver', which resides in unused memory (this was quite hard to

find such space in Intl. Karate, as it uses whole 48k). It does bank the cart in, copies the data to ram and

then turns the cart off again. You may try that with magic 'ADZM' cheat, you may compare the speeds of the

disk version and the cart version

 

Back to 'pricing' topic:

Eprom needed for Alley Cat - 32k x 8, 150ns, PLCC32. End user price, quantity 1 - $3

Multicart: Mark says 1MB, my shop only carries 512k - 29F040, 90ns, PLCC32. Price $3.60

 

As you can see, there is almost no price difference, cart shell, pcb and manufacturing work still costs the

same - no matter how much data are put on the cart (just the burning process is shorter).

 

Re: Mule - it's not real multiloader. It's just first part, then second part and never touching the disk again,

so it could be done in a similar way, but without any fancy 'cart driver'.

[Cybergoth]

Hi there!

 

Do you have any idea or concept of how many countless hours it takes to convert the code from a disk game and make it a cartridge game?

 

Since it is a single load file with no further disk operations, I'd assume something between 5 minutes and 5 hours?

 

Greetings,

Manuel

[andylama]

Back to 'pricing' topic:

Eprom needed for Alley Cat - 32k x 8, 150ns, PLCC32. End user price, quantity 1 - $3

Multicart: Mark says 1MB, my shop only carries 512k - 29F040, 90ns, PLCC32. Price $3.60

 

As you can see, there is almost no price difference, cart shell, pcb and manufacturing work still costs the  

same - no matter how much data are put on the cart (just the burning process is shorter).

 

So, can I interpret this to mean that you are going to competitively release cartridge ports of disk games (by request) for $1.50 (1/30th of $45)?

 

Didn't think so.

 

Mark is doing it. By request. Cheers to him!

[+davidcalgary29]

Back to 'pricing' topic:

Eprom needed for Alley Cat - 32k x 8, 150ns, PLCC32. End user price, quantity 1 - $3

Multicart: Mark says 1MB, my shop only carries 512k - 29F040, 90ns, PLCC32. Price $3.60

 

As you can see, there is almost no price difference, cart shell, pcb and manufacturing work still costs the  

same - no matter how much data are put on the cart (just the burning process is shorter).

 

So, can I interpret this to mean that you are going to competitively release cartridge ports of disk games (by request) for $1.50 (1/30th of $45)?

 

Didn't think so.

 

Mark is doing it. By request. Cheers to him!

 

I don't think that that's a fair critique. Jindroush was asked about the technical aspects and pricing components of assembling similar cartridges. He clearly stated that cartridge pricing was "not his department" and I didn't read criticism of anyone's pricing scheme anywhere in his comments.

[jindroush]

So, can I interpret this to mean that you are going to competitively release cartridge ports of disk games (by request) for $1.50 (1/30th of $45)?

 

You've missed my point. Althought I think that $45 is bit too much for 30 games multicart, I don't think it's terrible price.

 

But asking the same for the game which could be done in few minutes, that's certainly unfair. Also if we know that it's still the old good piracy.

[Jetboot Jack]

I was asking to understand how I can get Bruce Lee or International Karate for $20 on cart when Alleycat is $45.

 

Lets face it the work involved in copying a game onto a new medium is little understood, so I was asking to understand the techical merits of this so I could see if I wanted to spend the money...

 

I agree the MC are ok value, I found MULE to be GREAT VALUE!

 

On one level I don't need the MC's as I have a very large cart collection and an SIO2PC cable. But there are some original games that never made it to cart I will buy, so Bruce Lee on its own for $20 is something I will buy, just as Preppie and IK were. I find $20 for copying a game written 20 years ago and making it available again is within my "reasonable" band, but $45 is too much...

 

sTeVE -- I didn't mean to stir up any bad feeling....

[andylama]

and I didn't read criticism of anyone's pricing scheme anywhere in his comments.

 

davidcalgary29,

 

REALLY?! *I* was the one criticizing Jindroush? (baffled) Am I in the twilight zone or something?! I had to go back and re-read the whole thread to make sure I wasn't missing something huge! Were we reading the same thread? Mr. jindroush stated, and I quote:

 

(re: Mark's pricing) "this seems rather unfair (read rip-off) to the people"

 

To call someone's qualitative asking price for UNIQUE merchandise in an open market a "rip-off" is NOT a criticism??? This is news to me. I read that as not only critical, but rather insulting to boot.

 

Mark has been totally upstanding and an all-around super guy to deal with, and I want to support him, so that he will continue to offer neat products to those of us who don't have the time or mania to bother burning our own ROMs.

 

Whoever feels that the price is unreasonable, can feel free to burn their own ROMs, or continue loading from floppies. And they can do this all without asking pointedly adversarial questions (read: trolling/flamebaiting) and generally spreading bad vibes.

 

I have no doubt that Jindroush is a total brainiac hotshot who can do ANYTHING with a 6502, but his stance towards Mark's business seems at best, snide; at worst, hostile.

 

AFAIK no-one else, including Jindroush himself, is offering to create custom carts, just for me, by request. Yes, I am the one who commissioned the Alley Cat cart in the first place. Mark thought it was a good enough game to offer to the 8-bit community...and in classic fashion, he is accused of being a rip-off artist. Reasonable? Fair? You tell me.

 

I'm not interested in any flamewar, but I couldn't let this one pass without saying something.

[Jetboot Jack]

OK -- I am NOT trolling or baiting Mr Andylama, but trying to understand these new carts. If someone can copy a game to cart for $20, why should another game, of no more complexity, cost more than twice the amount?

 

Lets be VERY honest here, this is piracy we are all condoning, and I feel that we should be getting a full revelation about what we are paying for. I am trying to see why a 5.25 floppy disc worth of pirated 1983 carts should cost $40 in 2003?

 

I WOULD pay for a real effort to bring the truly new to this community on cart. I would understand the effort, and pay accordingly. I asked very early on in the what would you like thread for these kinds of games...

 

I also have to ask why are we pretending these current games are a hard task -- copying a single load game to cart is NOTHING in comparison to writing the original game -- what of the $40 is going to the hardworking developer who made the original...

 

sTeVE

[Wrathchild]

OK -- I am NOT trolling or baiting Mr Andylama, but trying to understand these new carts. If someone can copy a game to cart for $20, why should another game, of no more complexity, cost more than twice the amount?

 

I'd like to join in on this too, Lance's pricing seemed like a model that others wanting to do this would have followed. Granted, multi-carts have a degree of effort writing the bank copying per game to get the game data out of the cart and into where the disk/tape would have put it, but for single loaders (and most multi-part loaders) this is no great deal, e.g. I've quickly knocked up a XEGS cart-image using CC65 and an images of Alien-Swarm and Jawbreaker that can be booted into an emulator. What differentiates here is the complexity of the work involved. Titles such as IK (WCC) access the disk during the game and so these parts perhaps require reworking but do involve an understanding of the load routines, hence some cost of the cart goes into recouping this.

 

I WOULD pay for a real effort to bring the truly new to this community on cart. I would understand the effort, and pay accordingly. I asked very early on in the what would you like thread for these kinds of games...

 

An example of this is something I'm working toward, re-enginerring the Infocom parser such that it resides in the cart ($A000-$BFFF) and then the lower ram is used for screen and runtime data. Other fixed data (text etc) is held in the cart and switched into $8000-$9FFF. With any luck, even a 16K machine could then play these games! And some titles not seen on the XL may work too

 

So pricing runs along the line of asking what you think people would be prepared to pay. If I were to put each title on a cart of its own and charge for parts/postage + some time and effort, say £20 each, that's not too bad an earner is it? Or make 4 title multi-carts and charge a mint for that, say £50 @ £10 per title + £10 for the cart? Can that be justified when its only a £1 different to build? But like JBJ points out, would Activision want a cut?

 

One thing missed out of this discussion is the initial setup costs...

PCB design, production run, obtaining casings. This does need to be

recouperated too.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against what is being done with these carts,

the idea of being able to switch out the cart completely is useful for reclaiming the RAM. (Q. Do you need to reset all the MEMTOP manually?)

To date though, most (if not all) of the games done are 16/32K games that wouldn't reference anything in the $8000->$BFFF range anyway. Therefore for 48K (and 64K) titles you will need to write routines to copy the data first to RAM and then call a copy routine in RAM to disable the cart and copy the data up, then restore the cart and continue loading the lower data. That, to my mind, is where the larger cost of these carts is justified.

 

Mark

[Super-Genius!]

I have a proposal for everyone! Since making these carts is so easy,

here is the deal. I am willing to pay $300.00 (Three hundred dollars US)

to the FIRST person who sends me a working Alley Cat Cartridge that

they made! That's right $300.00!! This should be a breeze for all of you

Rocket Scientists who think making these carts is a walk in the park.

Here are the rules:

 

1. Must be a NEW case, not refurbished. [We use new]

2. Must have NEW components, not refurbished. [We use new]

3. Must have a custom circuit board with solder mask and silk screen. [Our boards are made this way]

4. Must include a custom label. [We make custom labels]

5. Must play exactly like the disk version. [Ours plays like the disk version]

6. Must include a copy of the Gerber file you used to make the board. [Just to verify you made the board]

7. Post to this thread when you are mailing it, so we know who is first!

 

Just think, $300.00 which is more than six times as much as we are

charging!! Who is going to win the prize???

 

To answer the question about other products:

Video 61 uses "refurbished boards". That is why the pricing is lower!

 

Steve, you commented:

 

I found MULE to be GREAT VALUE!

 

but on Sat Apr 12, 2003 8:38 pm you said:

 

I love the idea of MULE on cart and would buy one - but why so expensive

 

I am confused??!!

 

And jindroursh, you commented:

 

But asking the same for the game which could be done in few minutes...

 

Since it could be done in a few minutes, I am sure you will be posting to

this thread within the hour that your Alley Cat cartridge is on its way to

me and claim your $300.00!!

 

I am serious about the $300.00. Send me a working copy of Alley Cat

and I will immediately send you $300.00.

 

Mark

[Mendon]

I'll be honest and say I know absolutely NOTHING but burning ROMS's or converting disk/tape games to cart. I know nothing of the technical aspects of what a lot of the posts in here are talking about.

 

So the only part of this thread that I can comment upon is that I applaud Sunmark for their support of us 8bit users and I find their products to be excellent and a good value FOR ME. And I will continue to buy and support their efforts as items are releasd that I want. I do not find them overpriced as they are products I will use over and over and enjoy them each and every time. I used to own many of these games but in my move south to Florida 5yrs ago several boxes of my gaming/computing items were destroyed by the moving company. This is a way for me to replace some of those items and to me they are well worth the price I'm paying.

 

You can make an arguement about pricing about anything; A KIA sells for $9,000 and a Honda Accord for $22,000.. man, what a rip-off that Honda must be since it performs the same function as the KIA in that it gets you from Point A to Point B. $6 for a Hamburger from Fuddruckers when White Castle sells them for 49cents?? What a rip-off. You might say Bounty Bob Strikes Back is worth $200 but I could say its only a game and no game is worth more than $50. Value and worth is in the eyes of the individual.

 

Sunmark can charge whatever they want; Video 61 can charge whatever they want; Telegames can charge whatever they want; and on and on. If you want the item you pay the price... if not, move on.

 

I appreciate these efforts that are made to support Atari users, whether they be for 2600, 8bit, Jaguar or whatever and will continue to support those that are supporting me if its a product I want and my wallet allows it.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mendon