Pain, suffering, and being a kid with a TI

[Omega-TI]

Hey Owen, is that a beige TI? My God man! What sort of parent are you? :-)

 

ROFL! It's not all that bad, I heard they replaced the Mitsumi keyboard, so you don't have to call child protective services.

[Omega-TI]

... unless he gives the kid a pair of TI Painsticks, then all bets are off!

[zylon]

Hey Owen, is that a beige TI? My God man! What sort of parent are you? :-)

 

 

hey, mine was a beige one

Edited December 28, 2018 by zylon

[digdugnate]

... unless he gives the kid a pair of TI Painsticks, then all bets are off!

here we go with the Painstick and Zero Zap hate. hater!

[Opry99er]

He has Pain Sticks. No Wico adapters until he can crush a car with his bare hands.

[jrhodes]

here we go with the Painstick and Zero Zap hate. hater!

I like a good round of zero zap now and then.

Not exactly one of my go-to games, but fun enough.

[Keatah]

While coding on the real hardware probably is more fun for a 9 year old, consider steering him into cross development fairly early on. Yes, it would mean dull emulation to start with, but on the other hand far less risks to run out of storage space as well that he could save backup versions or one day even become advanced enough to use a versioning system... ok, maybe I'm getting a little ahead of what a 9 year old would handle.

When I was a kid, the exciting world of emulation was non-existent and couldn't get here fast enough. The Apple II was my system of choice back then, and I always dreamed of one system to run everything - all software from all contemporary computers. Especially the TI because I got into the scene too little too late. Funding was the issue. Naturally..

[hhos]

I'm new to TI99, but I've already had the experience of losing my source code on a floppy due to corrupted software from a 30+ year old disk. Backup? Oh, yeah. Huh??!! Now I remember.

 

Back in the day, when I got my first computer, a Model 1 TRS-80 I had no trouble with saving BASIC programs, or at least none that I remember. When I got into assembly, though... it was the norm to lose my source on the tape. It was strange that once I got it assembled, the binary would save and reload without a flaw. Weird. As a consequence of that, I got used to doing a lot of manual assembly. I think I can still disassemble about 75% of a Z80/8080/8085 hexadecimal print out because of it.

 

I would show the boy a simple example of the difference in speed between BASIC, PASCAL, GPL, FORTH, C, AL and whatever else you can come up with. This benchmark testing thread comes immediately to mind. http://atariage.com/forums/topic/248187-benchmarking-languages/?do=findComment&comment=3421682 , but there are probably better examples somewhere. I showed my nephew 6809 AL on my CoCo, then his parents bought him an Apple IIe+, and I showed him 6502 AL on that, learning it along with him myself. It was fun. He now works for IBM, developing VM compiler/interpreter software. I have some mixed feelings about that. I don't think he ever got into programming in AL, though. I just think it opened up other possibilities for him.

 

HH

[matthew180]

I used a cassette back in 1983 when I first got my 99/4A since it was my only option at the time. I dont know if it was the tape deck I had, cheap tapes, or what, but at least half of everything I tried to save failed to save and verify. And the programs that did save would typically not load at a later date. It was miserable. Finally getting a PEB with a floppy drive was the best and happiest upgrade ever back then. It made the computer much more reliable and usable for programming and saving data and games.

 

Maybe Im being naive about something, but why are you having Buck use a cassette for program storage? I can understand one of us old-timers using a cassette for nostalgia sake, but not anything serious. With devices like the CF7+, nanoPEB, tipi, etc., why not go with one of those?

[carlsson]

Cassettes are getting popular again. I read yesterday that the sales of compact cassettes for 2018 had increased by 18% or so compared to 2017. Going by percentage increase, that is more than the vinyl records. However it would seem the majority of sold compact cassettes are prerecorded with music, not blank tapes.

 

(No, I would not be able to make this up, as unbelievable as it may sound)

[Opry99er]

I used a cassette back in 1983 when I first got my 99/4A since it was my only option at the time. I dont know if it was the tape deck I had, cheap tapes, or what, but at least half of everything I tried to save failed to save and verify. And the programs that did save would typically not load at a later date. It was miserable. Finally getting a PEB with a floppy drive was the best and happiest upgrade ever back then. It made the computer much more reliable and usable for programming and saving data and games.

 

Maybe Im being naive about something, but why are you having Buck use a cassette for program storage? I can understand one of us old-timers using a cassette for nostalgia sake, but not anything serious. With devices like the CF7+, nanoPEB, tipi, etc., why not go with one of those?

For the same reason I have him shovel snow when I have a perfectly good snowblower under my awning.

 

Sure there are more convenient ways to do things... like he could learn all things TI using an emulator. Infinitely more convenient and reliable than real hardware.... but I think there is value in the struggle. There is knowledge to be gained through pain and suffering (to reference the title). I have a CF7 sitting on my shelf that I don't use. It is his as soon as he has mastered cassette storage and develops an appreciation for the technology.

[+FarmerPotato]

Cassettes are getting popular again. I read yesterday that the sales of compact cassettes for 2018 had increased by 18% or so compared to 2017. Going by percentage increase, that is more than the vinyl records. However it would seem the majority of sold compact cassettes are prerecorded with music, not blank tapes.

 

(No, I would not be able to make this up, as unbelievable as it may sound)

 

Cassette tape coating line opens, first since 1983:

https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2018/01/07/world-running-out-cassette-tape-now-its-being-made-springfield/852739001/

[carlsson]

Before I read "coating", I was imagining a line, a queue of customers to get ahold of compact cassettes. Something like those infamous bread lines in the former Soviet Union, but in the USA 2018, queueing to buy tapes...

[zylon]

 

Cassette tape coating line opens, first since 1983:

https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2018/01/07/world-running-out-cassette-tape-now-its-being-made-springfield/852739001/

 

I never stopped using my tapes, at least for music. Avoid any of "The Communicator" tapes by Maxell. The ones with the B&W paper labels on them shed enough oxide to block the head within a song. CD players won't last a month at my job with all the zinc dust and welding material flying about, but my tapes keep on going.

[HOME AUTOMATION]

There is knowledge to be gained through pain and suffering'...

A wealthy maxim to be sure.

"I need my pain"-Captain Kirk

Always be mindful...

That there are lines' not to be crossed...

...the ones' that make us our own men.


Alex.

[matthew180]

For the same reason I have him shovel snow when I have a perfectly good snowblower under my awning.

 

Sure there are more convenient ways to do things... like he could learn all things TI using an emulator. Infinitely more convenient and reliable than real hardware.... but I think there is value in the struggle. There is knowledge to be gained through pain and suffering (to reference the title). I have a CF7 sitting on my shelf that I don't use. It is his as soon as he has mastered cassette storage and develops an appreciation for the technology.

 

While I tend to agree with this line of thinking / practice / parenting, etc. I think any suffering should be based on mistakes they can learn from, i.e. ones they made themselves, not ones made by the computer. When the cassette fails to do its job, that is not the fault of the user, especially if you did your diligence and did the verify step as well. I think the cassette has got to be the least reliable data storage ever created. Heck, even punch cards and paper-tape beat cassette in almost every aspect (okay, maybe not punch cards, but I'd love to use a paper-tape with my 99/4A!)

 

I think it is fantastic that your son shares your interest in the 99/4A and that he is leaning on real iron and willing to explore and figure it all out. I am jealous for sure! I tried that with my own kids at various stages of their childhood and they had so little interest. I had a hard enough time just getting them to spend some time on the machine, trying some games, writing some simple programs, etc. If I had required them to try saving to cassette, I would have had a complete mutiny on my hands.

 

We used things like the cassette back in the day because it was all we had. As soon as I got a disk drive I never saved to cassette again, and the computer was so much nicer to work with. I don't think getting the disk drive gave me a sense of appreciation, it gave me a sense of relief that I could finally trust the computer to work like it was supposed to.

 

Anyway, just my thoughts and a different perspective as I read your posts. I'm not trying to argue or say you are wrong or anything like that (just in case some of this is coming across in the wrong way).

[Opry99er]

 

While I tend to agree with this line of thinking / practice / parenting, etc. I think any suffering should be based on mistakes they can learn from, i.e. ones they made themselves, not ones made by the computer. When the cassette fails to do its job, that is not the fault of the user, especially if you did your diligence and did the verify step as well. I think the cassette has got to be the least reliable data storage ever created. Heck, even punch cards and paper-tape beat cassette in almost every aspect (okay, maybe not punch cards, but I'd love to use a paper-tape with my 99/4A!)

 

I think it is fantastic that your son shares your interest in the 99/4A and that he is leaning on real iron and willing to explore and figure it all out. I am jealous for sure! I tried that with my own kids at various stages of their childhood and they had so little interest. I had a hard enough time just getting them to spend some time on the machine, trying some games, writing some simple programs, etc. If I had required them to try saving to cassette, I would have had a complete mutiny on my hands.

 

We used things like the cassette back in the day because it was all we had. As soon as I got a disk drive I never saved to cassette again, and the computer was so much nicer to work with. I don't think getting the disk drive gave me a sense of appreciation, it gave me a sense of relief that I could finally trust the computer to work like it was supposed to.

 

Anyway, just my thoughts and a different perspective as I read your posts. I'm not trying to argue or say you are wrong or anything like that (just in case some of this is coming across in the wrong way).

 

I tend to agree with you. However, I have not lost a single program I've loaded to tape unless it was operator error.... I have personally produced over 85 cassettes for distribution over the past few years and every single one was verified and tested multiple times. I have since been able to load up these tapes for demonstration many times, and without incident.

 

That said, I definitely agree that disk is a significantly more reliable medium. You are 100% correct there. My reason for wanting him to become comfortable working with tape is not that I wish him to use that format going forward... but rather to give him an understanding of cassette. I want him to appreciate the luxury of a disk system when I give him my CF7+ to use.

 

He uses my TI upstairs in my office fairly regularly. He's proficient at using my disk system and is capable of initializing and formatting a disk, saving to and from disk, etc.. But for his first experience with his own TI, I want him to think through the problems that cassette storage poses. How do you load multiple programs on a linear tape? How do you access the programs you want if they're not immediately accessible by naming them in a LOAD command? He is learning these things quickly and I'm proud of him... though (as you can probably imagine) he has been asking for a PEB and a stack of floppies.

 

His birthday is March 9th. I think that by that time, he will be quite familiar (and probably fed up) with cassette storage. It will be a good birthday.

[Omega-TI]

I couldn't help myself... (apologies)

 

 

 

[etownandy]

Somehow, while skimming the User's Reference Guide as a second grader, I thought you did OLD CS1 and SAVE CS2. So when my sister finished typing in a long program, she asked me how to save it and I told her. Of course, it errored out, wiping the program from memory in the process. She wasn't too thrilled about that.

[matthew180]

 

I tend to agree with you. However, I have not lost a single program I've loaded to tape unless it was operator error.... I have personally produced over 85 cassettes for distribution over the past few years and every single one was verified and tested multiple times. I have since been able to load up these tapes for demonstration many times, and without incident.

 

Wow, well, if all the problems are user error then there is little to argue about. I wonder why my tape storage was so bad BITD?? Crappy tapes maybe, but I thought I remember being aware of that and buying quality tapes (60 minute Memorex, TDK, etc.) Maybe it was the crappy little tape recorder we had. I did not have the fancy "program recorder" with a counter, but some other tape recorder that we had around the house.

 

I think disk storage would make a great birthday present!

[HOME AUTOMATION]

Personally, I Have had about equally bad luck with disks as with tapes. I have two drives that scrape the coating right off the disks, ruining perfectly good sets.

Tape players need proper maintenance of pinch rollers and tensioning devices to track the tape steadily... one trap that some users are unable to avoid is... depressing the play/record buttons before attemping to close the door... this presses the cassette shell up against the tape head disturbing the alignment, requiring manual readjustment of the head. If the machine has multiple unsupervised operators... only someone with technical awareness and or a perfect ear would catch on to the cause of the issue.

When a tape player with a loose type flywheel bearing is impacted(dropped) at the wrong angle the inertia carried by the weight of the flywheel can compromise the integrity of the axial alignment of the capstan pin... this causes a wobble that translates directly to a constant and asynchronous(relative to the particular play) fluctuation in speed... perhaps the one thing of which TIs data system is most intolerant. This also often happens when an inexperienced user whom while attempting to change the belt, unwittingly applies unequal pressure to the flywheel.

I have not succeeded in straightening a badly bent pin to the extent of achieving a DATA OK.

Noise in the record switch or to sensitive a physical coupling can cause record pulses while operating the controls(less likely).

Some systems use a real earth magnet erase head that depends on physical contact or separation from the tape. Worn tensioning devices or poor restraint mechanisms can allow the tape to inadvertently come to close or even make direct contact with the magnet during rewind or fast forward operations.

Oh, and most machines have different tracking offset errors. For consistent results its best to use the same machine for recording and playback.

 

Just some observations...

[HOME AUTOMATION]

Following in the Klingon tradition... I do believe this sort of an insult to one's heritage...

 

Demands... Payment in BLOOD!

 

 

Ha!Ha!

[Opry99er]

Qapla'!

[zylon]

I couldn't help myself... (apologies)

 

 

 

 

On the C= side, the 1541 was not that much faster, except on very short prg's.

[+InsaneMultitasker]

If it was me, March 9 couldn't come quickly enough! Of course there is a certain nostalgic feeling induced by the data stream noises and an appreciation for the TI disk system that comes after using a cassette storage or as was the case with some of us early on, no storage options at all.