Faicuai Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, tf_hh said: Ehm... no. All XL/XE/XEGS computers have buffered PHI2 connected to the cartridge port. The Atari 400 and the Atari 800 has RAS instead of PHI2 at the left cartridge. The right cartridge in the Atari 800 has both RAS and PHI2. Forgive my intervention here, but... ... I understood (from some quite unexcepted surprises during development of The!Cart, and later further testing, revisions and documentation) that, it turns out the 800 was discovered to be the ONLY model not having access to PHI2 signal at the LEFT-cart port connector, BUT having access to it on the RIGHT port (!). The 400 seems fine, though, and it everyone was befuddled as to why was the case / choice for 400/800 production. Here: This motivated the The!Cart team to develop a small dummy board to be attached to RIGHT port, and connected to the The!Cart, while sitting on the LEFT port, so PHI2 could be effectively sampled while attempting to flash The!Cart on-board the 800. In any case, I am having a bit of hard time connecting the "PHI2" signal comments to the problems observed with SIDE 1/2 and its OSS-Cart Partition not working correctly on Incognito. It is my conclusion, at this moment, that the problem stems from the significant patches applied to those OSS carts for storage and handling on SIDE 1/2 (and for use on Ultimate-1MB environments). As a matter of fact, and as I have already said, I can still partially boot BASIC-XE from SIDE 1/2 on Incognito, as long as I choose QMeg404 as OS. So I am not inclined to believe that problem is physical, in any form or shape. Edited August 22, 2019 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, Faicuai said: In any case, I am having a bit of hard time connecting the "PHI2" signal comments to the problems observed with SIDE 1/2 and its OSS-Cart Partition not working correctly on Incognito. It is my conclusion, at this moment, that the problem stems from the significant patches applied to those OSS carts for storage and handling on SIDE 1/2 (and for use on Ultimate-1MB environments). As a matter of fact, and as I have already said, I can still partially boot BASIC-XE from SIDE 1/2 on Incognito, as long as I choose QMeg404 as OS. Any software queries regarding the OSS ROMs should probably be addressed to @ebiguy, although I'm unsure if he owns an Incognito. At the end of the day, if the OSS ROMs work with Incognito: bonus. If not... well, they're meant to be used with Ultimate 1MB/SIDE. The cart port isn't blocked by the HDD with the Incognito, so one can use AVG, Ultimate Cart, UNO, OSS 4-in-1, AtariMax patched OSS carts or the original OSS cartridges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) FJC makes the point, but there is a matter of standardization. If you dig back in time I remember a discussion of certain carts not working on the 800 for timing reasons. Might have pointed out the carts, types, blob on board vs chip on board, manufacturer etc. Some folks made the phi fix switchable as there were specific carts that might not work with the fix... It can come down to standardization. The PHI mod makes just about everything work on the 800 rock solid same as on the 800XL thru 130XE. I don't recall which of the 1xxx XLx variants had PHI on the cart slot atm. It all becomes interdependent at some point. Fixing all possible aspects seems prudent enough. Even if it's felt to be unneeded. note VIGO addressed some issues within ultimate sd cart firmware...and earlier he explained some of the issue.... with the firmware fix you didn't need to modify your 800 to use the ultimate. Not using phi 2 on some other devices may come down to the available window, without phi 2 IIRC it comes up short and might not allow valid information long enough to get the job the device wants done. Edited August 22, 2019 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 34 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: Any software queries regarding the OSS ROMs should probably be addressed to @ebiguy, although I'm unsure if he owns an Incognito. At the end of the day, if the OSS ROMs work with Incognito: bonus. If not... well, they're meant to be used with Ultimate 1MB/SIDE. The cart port isn't blocked by the HDD with the Incognito, so one can use AVG, Ultimate Cart, UNO, OSS 4-in-1, AtariMax patched OSS carts or the original OSS cartridges. Many thanks, Jon... I will try to reach @ebiguy to (at least) let him know of these issues, and, if I can, I will offer my support to fix them. In the mean time, do you have a link to AtariMax OSS-patched carts? Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Faicuai said: Many thanks, Jon... I will try to reach @ebiguy to (at least) let him know of these issues, and, if I can, I will offer my support to fix them. Not that I want to load problems onto Eric's shoulders, but if the issue were software related, nor do I want to bother Candle with it (since I doubt he knows anything about the patched OSS ROMs). 1 hour ago, Faicuai said: In the mean time, do you have a link to AtariMax OSS-patched carts? I do not, but I guess they're buried deep inside the AtariMax forum somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 2005 and 2011 were the hot spots for the OSS carts, and the SDX / OSS combined carts. The extensions needed modification also because of dxxx changes. as the normal OSS banks were changed to an Atarimax friendly scheme, some of the extensions pointed to banks that were no longer where expected... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: The extensions needed modification also because of dxxx changes. Good point. While the physical layout of banks is different on the AtariMax carts, the banking scheme (address based) is pretty similar and the patching isn't so hard. The SIDE versions required completely different banking code, meanwhile, since SIDE banking uses the data bus. And if extensions happen to assume the same banking scheme as the stock ROMs, they're bound to require modification as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) I have a 5-in-One OSS cart AND an Ultimate cart with what I firmly believe are original OSS images. They BOTH work fine, EXCEPT when it finds the BASICXE.OSS file. If the Extensions are present, it ALWAYS crashes. That is with ALL versions of the Extensions I have tried. CPLD code problem, or do I NEED a Patched version for this configuration (Incognito)? Edited August 23, 2019 by Kyle22 Clarity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 55 minutes ago, Kyle22 said: I have a 5-in-One OSS cart AND an Ultimate cart with what I firmly believe are original OSS images. They BOTH work fine, EXCEPT when it finds the BASICXE.OSS file. If the Extensions are present, it ALWAYS crashes. That is with ALL versions of the Extensions I have tried. CPLD code problem, or do I NEED a Patched version for this configuration (Incognito)? VERY interesting, indeed... This then brings us to the final test, which would be a true OSS (XE) cart, on the 800's LEFT port... BTW, in my opinion, the game in town is the Basic-XL (not XE), because XL leverages the OS' FPP resources, and those we can upgrade to perform even faster that own XE's (!) I don't recall if XL has extensions, but if it does, I am going to try them (it works perfectly as is, so far). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 If it is possible to use Extended mode (the file BASICXE.OSS successfully loaded), it makes Much more RAM available. Some programs require it. FXEP (FoReM XP Pro BBS), for example. This is a REQUIREMENT for Full BXE compatibility. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 6 hours ago, Kyle22 said: If it is possible to use Extended mode (the file BASICXE.OSS successfully loaded), it makes Much more RAM available So have you tried it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 19 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: 2005 and 2011 were the hot spots for the OSS carts, and the SDX / OSS combined carts. The extensions needed modification also because of dxxx changes. as the normal OSS banks were changed to an Atarimax friendly scheme, some of the extensions pointed to banks that were no longer where expected... Oh my... did not even think about this (makes total sense...) This could be a viable explanation as to why the extensions did not work with Basic XE on Side 1/2... You stil have Kyle's tests, which sound like "unmodified" OSS carts hosted on another cart-solution, which "should" have worked... Only way to find out is to try a genuine, unmodified Basic-XE cart, plugged directly on the system bus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 13 hours ago, Kyle22 said: I have a 5-in-One OSS cart AND an Ultimate cart with what I firmly believe are original OSS images. They BOTH work fine, EXCEPT when it finds the BASICXE.OSS file. If the Extensions are present, it ALWAYS crashes. That is with ALL versions of the Extensions I have tried. CPLD code problem, or do I NEED a Patched version for this configuration (Incognito)? Kyle: Could you try this particular test but using Qmeg404, PBI=OFF and booting extensions .ATR from SIO-attached storage? Thanks, in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 6 hours ago, Faicuai said: Could you try this particular test but using Qmeg404, PBI=OFF and booting extensions .ATR from SIO-attached storage? I'll give it a try this evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 With Q-Meg 4.04 and PBI off, it boots and loads BASICXE.OSS without crash or error. The trouble now is that if I type EXTEND, I get this: Error - 65 EXTENDed Memory not Available This happens no matter how much Extended RAM is there (320, 576, 1088). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) Tested BASIC XE on my OSS 5-in-1 cart with Incognito and everything (including EXTEND) works with PBI enabled, standard XL/XE OS. So I guess this is a patched ROM issue. EDIT: Extensions hang on loading screen, however. Edited August 25, 2019 by flashjazzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) kyle22, did you fix your tl and update yet? I think you'll like it. Not saying it's a miracle, it's much better and I think you'll be happier with it. Edited August 25, 2019 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 Extension crash isn't caused by a CPLD bug, since I can duplicate it on an emulated U1MB machine using the patched OSS ROMs. The hang on the extension loading screen is caused by the OS GINTLK check, which sends the CPU into an endless loop at $C0DF. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 interesting, not all posts appear immediately but rather at some sort of update interval... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 Hmm...I guess this BASIC XE issue will be something I'll have to worry about when I get my Incognito. Hopefully it is resolved by then. Currently I'm using a Mr. Atari patched version for MyIDE II, piggy-backed to my SDX cartridge and it wall works without issue. Though I have to use the reset switch on my SSDX V.1 (by Dropcheck) and then cold-start RESET on my OS, after selecting BASIC XE, then it boots up into SDX and BASIC XE works flawlessly with the CART command (Of course one must have the Config.sys file in SDX set-up in a proper way too). I've yet to hear from anyone else, if there is anyone, that MyIDE II piggy-backed on an SDX cart like me (especially ones without a reset button on the SDX cartridge). Of course BASIC XE patched for MyIDE should work fine with MyBIOS and MyDOS on the MyIDE II cart for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) Tested actual OSS BASIC XE ROM alongside SIDE2/U1MB in emulation (can be accomplished on real hardware with a dual cart adapter), and extensions load OK. The patched SIDE version of BASIC XE crashes on the OS GINTLK check presumably because SDX writes to $D508 (which should disable the OSS cart) and then immediately zeros GINTLK on the assumption that the external cartridge is turned off. However, the patched SIDE ROM is still there, so the GINTLK check fails. The 'real' BASIC XE ROM responds to the $D508 write, meanwhile, so no crash occurs. Unfortunately this suggests that BASIC XE on the 5-in-1 cart should function on Incognito just as it does in the emulator, but it hangs when loading extensions. In any case, I suspect the issue is related to TRIG3. Edited August 25, 2019 by flashjazzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) Update: using the OSS 5-in-1, extensions load perfectly well straight off the Incognito HDD with Altirra OS. Also works on the emulated U1MB machine with a 'real' BASIC XE cart. 'EXTEND' works in both cases too. Extension loading works with the patched SIDE OSS ROM, but 'EXTEND' doesn't work. So: solution for Incognito users would be to use Altirra OS, which does not appear to check TRIG3 against GINTLK during the vertical blank. The wider problem appears to be caused by TRIG3 not accurately reflecting the state of the cartridge ROM on the Incognito. Edited August 25, 2019 by flashjazzcat 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said: Update: using the OSS 5-in-1, extensions load perfectly well straight off the Incognito HDD with Altirra OS. Also works on the emulated U1MB machine with a 'real' BASIC XE cart. 'EXTEND' works in both cases too. Extension loading works with the patched SIDE OSS ROM, but 'EXTEND' doesn't work. So: solution for Incognito users would be to use Altirra OS, which does not appear to check TRIG3 against GINTLK during the vertical blank. The wider problem appears to be caused by TRIG3 not accurately reflecting the state of the cartridge ROM on the Incognito. This seems to go back in full circle that what I have mentioned and asked before, here (and other Incog. Thread): WHY does $D013 (TRIGx) reads fuzzy (like data/address bus leftovers) instead of a SOLID ZERO (0) as it reads on Ultimate? This value is then copied to GINTLK location in low-ram by OS (most of the time equals $D0) , but it turns out that on XL/XE OS loads this value is also KEY for properly differentiating, routing and servicing COLD vs. WARM starts (which is why I had to develop a small suite of commands that literally conduct, consistently and reliably, real resets and full cold-boots by instructing the OS to do it properly under Incognito in XL/XE mode...) Edited August 25, 2019 by Faicuai Whole bunch of fat-finger typos... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 Only Candle knows, so better direct the question his way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 25, 2019 Share Posted August 25, 2019 (edited) all of what was discovered (and verified +1 FJC) in a concise package to candle might get one more lose end tied up. I'll finalize my order of 2 more at that point. Very exciting to see the progress made and what's been accomplished. Way to go Candle! Edited August 25, 2019 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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