New 80-column 800 and XL/XE boards?

[Kyle22]

Build them as 800 type RAM cards for power supply and physical stability. Provide a PBI connecter on the Incognito side and use a SHORT ribbon cable. Please include a pass-through PBI connector on the other side of the board for future expansion cards or other PBI devices. There are 3 open slots. It would be nice to make use of them.

 

[Faicuai]

On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 1:56 PM, mytek said:

A new 80 column card to fit an 800 slot sounds great. I only wish that the original cast aluminium RF shield box had been made with a removable pass-thru panel to the outside world, so as to facilitate cords from 3rd party upgrades such as this one.

 

 

Certainly a VERY valid issue, which clearly invites some thinking, especially from all HW developers.

 

I have been thinking about this for quite a while, already, and the answer is not trivial (although physically simple, even it sounds contradictory). It all depends on the baseline premise for development:

1. Option 1: Leveraging the 800's "radical" architecture, where the CPU+GFX elements are, in fact, on their own card, attached to their own slot, and RAM/ROM reside on their very own slots (e.g. the Mobo is like a backplane, and core functions are localized in different places):
   • Here, the existing CPU/GFX card may have to be split / separated, thus concentrating only on CPU / acceleration / 16bit-32bit RAM on the main (under-shield) system slot, and then connecting via dedicated ribbon infernally routed to GFX-ONLY board that will reside on 800's expansion-bay.
   • Once comfortably installed there (and leveraging the MASSIVE real-estate space available there for PCB-surface), a sub-ribbon could be very easily routed out of the chassis, ending on a terminal, application-dependent daughter board that could always be replaced if a different video-interface is required (e.g. RGB, DVI, HDMI, etc.)
   • Also, and right from this boards' location, it would also be possible to route terminal ribbon or discrete analog output directly to system power-board, where original physical audio/video interfaces currently reside: 
     • This would make a LOT of sense if a "smart", drop-in / plug-and-play replacement of such board may be developed in the future, where next-gen video interfaces could be very easily be installed and made available to the end user, with basically no install work / effort. This board alone could host a gazillion optoins, including internal SDrive (because SIO bus is there), power control unit attached to SIO-bus, for fully logical or programmable power-up or down of system, and on, and on... 
2. Option 2: Just leveraging the presence of on-board PBI bus, powered by Incognito:
   • In other words, develop expansions that would run from the PBI bus, and eventually residing on an external, universal housing that will be fully compatible between 800/Incognito and XL/XE series.
   • This housing, of course, will also have to be developed (mostly passive in nature) as well as the expansions themselves that will be plugged on such housing. It will also have to have its own power source, or, could also be optionally powered directly from the 800's power available at the expansion-slots.

Physically speaking, there will be NO NEED to modify infernal aluminum shield-frame, for any of the two options. Instead, the answer (in my humble opinion) lies on the removable TOP LID:

1. It is a user-replaceable, composite Aluminum / Plastic solution that can be precisely adapted for these needs. No need to drill holes on it, etc. 
2. Per my initial observations, once the lid is in place, there still remains a 1.0-1.25mm of space between the tallest lip / edge of the aluminum-housing (all the way in the top-back), and the plastic (inner-facing) surface of the top-lid itself, that covers the expansion bay once it latches in place.
3. If that is correct, then all needed is to abrade 2mms of material along a 3-inch long section of the aluminum-plate attached to the removable TOP-LID, right where it meets the back-edge of the aluminum housing (what completes the "metal" enclosure, not visible from outside). And then proceed with the exact same location, length and depth of abrasion (minimal) on the PLASTIC outer-edge of the lid's exterior.
4. And that's it! There goes the 50-pin IDC ribbon out of the expansion bay, and to the outer world... while still being able place the top-lid back on its place, and secure it on the back (left micro-slot, as the right one may be lost), and the front two latches. This will be more than enough to hold it in place, and it will not look bad at all.
5. A similar, smaller slot could be created on the back-left side of the lid's plate, so a GFX's daughter-ribbon can also be routed back out with ease.

 

When I get more time, I will post some pictures, with the precise markings of these minor changes, so it all becomes much clearer. It would be, at least, a viable option with minimal or no changes visible from the 800's outside, while enable a new generation of upgrades that will full leverage the 800's architecture and/or the PBI bus itself.

 

(sorry for the LoOoOoNg post... ?)

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2019 by Faicuai

[_The Doctor__]

tbh the vents on the 800 are big enough you can easily route ribbon cables through them, don't forget the large testing pbi in the back of the pcb either...

[Geister]

If you start with the assumption of the PBI bus as the base platform, and you have the incognito, XLs, and XEs, you don't run into the fracturing of the market that everyone complains about with Atari. You have to develop for a base 48K, or 64K.  An expansion box and retooling of the U1MB and VBXE for PBI cards would give all machines (with the possible exception of the 400) a path to the new base of 1 megabyte ram, Hi-Res graphics, and possibly a PBI Rapidus card.  

If more people have the hardware, more developers would write code for it, and then more users would see a reason to upgrade to the new standard.  

It certainly wouldn't bring Atari back from the dead, but maybe more of the remaining Atari users would finally see a reason to purchase all these updates. 

[Kyle22]

1 hour ago, Faicuai said:

1. Option 2: Just leveraging the presence of on-board PBI bus, powered by Incognito:
   • In other words, develop expansions that would run from the PBI bus, and eventually residing on an external, universal housing that will be fully compatible between 800/Incognito and XL/XE series.
   • This housing, of course, will also have to be developed (mostly passive in nature) as well as the expansions themselves that will be plugged on such housing. It will also have to have its own power source, or, could also be optionally powered directly from the 800's power available at the expansion-slots.

Physically speaking, there will be NO NEED to modify infernal aluminum shield-frame, for any of the two options. Instead, the answer (in my humble opinion) lies on the removable TOP LID:

1. It is a user-replaceable, composite Aluminum / Plastic solution that can be precisely adapted for these needs. No need to drill holes on it, etc. 
2. Per my initial observations, once the lid is in place, there still remains a 1.0-1.25mm of space between the tallest lip / edge of the aluminum-housing (all the way in the top-back), and the plastic (inner-facing) surface of the top-lid itself, that covers the expansion bay once it latches in place.
3. If that is correct, then all needed is to abrade 2mms of material along a 3-inch long section of the aluminum-plate attached to the removable TOP-LID, right where it meets the back-edge of the aluminum housing (what completes the "metal" enclosure, not visible from outside). And then proceed with the exact same location, length and depth of abrasion (minimal) on the PLASTIC outer-edge of the lid's exterior.
4. And that's it! There goes the 50-pin IDC ribbon out of the expansion bay, and to the outer world... while still being able place the top-lid back on its place, and secure it on the back (left micro-slot, as the right one may be lost), and the front two latches. This will be more than enough to hold it in place, and it will not look bad at all.
5. A similar, smaller slot could be created on the back-left side of the lid's plate, so a GFX's daughter-ribbon can also be routed back out with ease.

 

I have a metal plate already measured. We are thinking along the same lines.

Basically a 1090XL with 800 compatible card slots. For small PBI devices, a simple small plastic box with a ribbon cable will do for a single card on the XL. To use it on 800, take it out of the box.

 

If done right, this could unleash something BIG! We could be starting an avalanche of great new upgrades for all models if a proper standard can be created.

 

:)

 

[Faicuai]

22 hours ago, Geister said:

If you start with the assumption of the PBI bus as the base platform, and you have the incognito, XLs, and XEs, you don't run into the fracturing of the market that everyone complains about with Atari. You have to develop for a base 48K, or 64K.  An expansion box and retooling of the U1MB and VBXE for PBI cards would give all machines (with the possible exception of the 400) a path to the new base of 1 megabyte ram, Hi-Res graphics, and possibly a PBI Rapidus card.  

If more people have the hardware, more developers would write code for it, and then more users would see a reason to upgrade to the new standard.  

It certainly wouldn't bring Atari back from the dead, but maybe more of the remaining Atari users would finally see a reason to purchase all these updates. 

Fully understand your point, and makes total sense.

 

The core idea is to maximize revenue / sales for the HW-developers, while abstracting as much as possible from the underlying HW architecture. This in turn, means easier and faster to develop HW, leveraging Jon's BIOS PBI/extensions heavily, and creating a uniform user experience (for ONCE and ALL!)

 

However, this takes us to Kyle's point, which I think makes total sense... and had not thought about it (!)...

[Faicuai]

21 hours ago, Kyle22 said:

I have a metal plate already measured. We are thinking along the same lines.

Basically a 1090XL with 800 compatible card slots. For small PBI devices, a simple small plastic box with a ribbon cable will do for a single card on the XL. To use it on 800, take it out of the box.

 

If done right, this could unleash something BIG! We could be starting an avalanche of great new upgrades for all models if a proper standard can be created.

 

 

Well, you beat me to the punch, there...

 

Having upgrades that could be pluggable directly on the 800, or on the external expansion housing (via PBI bus) is definitely a GREAT idea!

 

The only thing, however, is that the 800's expansion "bus" (slots in the expansion bay) do not conform to PBI-signals, which then makes me think you meant that the cards would have the "form factor" that would allow them to fit directly on the 800's bay (maybe for powering from the slot, directly) but connected to the PBI bus port at Incognito... right?

 

In any case, this all means that, for any 800 user to fully leverage a WORLD of possible upgrades and to easily share them with their XL/XEs, they would have to absolutely purchase and install Incognito... And that is a fundamental, key premise that everyone would have to be ready to full bank on, before anything else...

[Sugarland]

8 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

In any case, this all means that, for any 800 user to fully leverage a WORLD of possible upgrades and to easily share them with their XL/XEs, they would have to absolutely purchase and install Incognito... And that is a fundamental, key premise that everyone would have to be ready to full bank on, before anything else...

Could a dummy card be made with the PBI but without all of the Incognito's other features?? A PBI-only card.

 

[Faicuai]

Just now, Sugarland said:

Could a dummy card be made with the PBI but without all of the Incognito's other features?? A PBI-only card.

 

I believe YES, but... you will need a PBI-compliant OS and RAM banking/structure to support PBI OS code and extensions... and that only happens, today, in XL/XE mode, my friend.

 

That's why Incognito would become a central piece of the puzzle, because it addresses all that (and more)... but then remains the installation part, which (even though quite simple) it is not purely plug-and-play. An affordable install service may be required (where only the MOBO, CPU card, and plastic housing of expansion bay are sent it and then returned for final and plug-and-play assembly of end-user). 

 

That would close the loop, and secure mass, worry-free adoption of Incognito.

[Kyle22]

3 hours ago, Faicuai said:

The only thing, however, is that the 800's expansion "bus" (slots in the expansion bay) do not conform to PBI-signals, which then makes me think you meant that the cards would have the "form factor" that would allow them to fit directly on the 800's bay (maybe for powering from the slot, directly) but connected to the PBI bus port at Incognito... right?

 

Yes, exactly. Put the PBI connector on the card so it is directly in line with Incognito's PBI and use a very short cable folded flat. Or, use a long ribbon if it is in the external case.

 

The 800 backplane would provide power (to those cards that would need it) and hold the card in place physically.

 

We should name the box the 890.

 

:)

 

[+David_P]

So what we need is a "PBI-2-Atari 800 Slot 3" adaptor - so hardware developers can design things for slot 3 of an 800, and use it on an 800XL / 600XL / 130XE / 800XE.

[Kyle22]

3 minutes ago, David_P said:

So what we need is a "PBI-2-Atari 800 Slot 3" adaptor - so hardware developers can design things for slot 3 of an 800, and use it on an 800XL / 600XL / 130XE / 800XE.

 

Not quite that.

A new PBI card for 800 would NOT be "plug N play". It would also cost almost as much as an Incognito.

 

Edit: Just get an Incognito. You will NOT regret it.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Kyle22
clarity