Help with YPbPr Component Cable / RGB

[c0op3r]

No sure what section this should go in, so Mods if it’s the wrong section please feel free to move it.

 

I just got an old Polariod LCD  TV with component input (Model FLM-1511), I ordered an HD Retrovision Genesis YPbPr Component Cable.

 

I got the cable to use with my Genesis 2 (and hopefully soon to be received) TerraOnion Mega SD cartridge.  I also wanted to use it with my consolized Neo Geo MVS system (with the HD Retrovision NeoGeo to Genesis 2 Adapter) and my PC Engine Core Grafx II and a SuperSD System 3 (which has Genesis 2 RGB output port).

 

So here is the issues, I cannot get RGB/component output from any of the systems.

 

I tried a Genesis 2, the Neo Geo (with adapter) and the PCE w/SSD3  - nothing.

 

I then tried all three on the TV using composite and I get a screen, I then tried them on the Green component input on the component input of the TV nothing, my understanding is that I should of got a Black and White picture testing this way.

 

Am I doing something wrong? I am not sure if the TV has a bad input of the HD Retrovision cable is bad? Does anyone have a suggestion?

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Could be the TV isn't compatible with a 240p signal. My Sony Bravia is the same way except that it does work with the Genesis and Saturn, but didn't work with my SNES or SMS via component RGB. In the end it took my OSSC to get around this issue on my TV so that all consoles would work on RGB that I wanted.

 

[derFunkenstein]

Yep, what Crossbow said is the most likely thing. I have an old Westinghouse TV with YPbPr and the only games (not systems) that worked with the HDRetrovision cables were 480i games. Sonic 2 would start to work when the system demoed 2-player gameplay. The Saturn worked with Virtual Fighter 2 because it was 480i. But in general, most games didn't work and it was the fault of the TV. 

 

The only solution is an upscaler like the OSSC or RetroTINK 2x.

[c0op3r]

Thank you both for replying.  I think that both of you are correct, I guess the part that was so baffling me was that the TV shows a picture in the composite. I was thinking if it has a picture on the composite it should show a picture on the component input also.

 

I have gone ahead and ordered an OSSC I was trying to avoid this as I just wanted a simple solution to connect the machines and play, but it seems that time has past.

 

Additional question if you guys know; does the OSSC input audio on the SCART connection? I am thinking about getting a Genesis 2 to SCART cable to make the connection to the OSSC simpler.

[derFunkenstein]

The TV is probably interpreting all composite signals incorrectly as 480i. The Westinghouse I referenced does the exact same thing with both composite and S-Video. 

 

Yes, the OSSC does input audio via SCART, so a single cable is all you need. Insurrection Industries makes a good, relatively inexpensive SCART cable for Genesis model 1 and 2 both. 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Yeah I use the HDRetrovision cables on my model 1 and it looks fantastic! However on the model 1 you have to use a 1/8" to 1/8" male to male to get audio from the Genesis. Plugs from the headphone jack off the front into another headphone jack on the side of the HDRetrovision cable logic box that is there. However, I had issues with static audio occasionally on the right channel using this method and opted to plug the Genesis straight into the OSSC audio input for component inputs and it cleared that issue up. So not sure if the audio input jack on my set of cables is flaky but since they were hard to get at that time and I had a workaround, I lived with it.

 

[c0op3r]

Cool - I look forward to getting my OSSC (I really did not want yet another device and power cord to plug in, but what can you do).  I did go ahead and order a Genesis 2 min DIN to SCART that I will use to plug in the OSSC and then the OSSC to the Monitor.

 

Now I just have to wait for this ridiculous storm to decide what its going to do and move away (Hurricane Dorian).  We are not getting mail (or any deliveries because of it) even with it stalled 100+ miles off the coast. Oh well such is the live of a retro gamer in the the Sunshine State.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I wasn't sure on getting an OSSC either but I'm really glad that I did. I have most of the retro analog stuff connected via s-video or composite through my Extron 7SC. That outputs everything as a VGA video signal. I have that going into the VGA input on the OSSC, The Genesis sits as the lone device connected via component to the OSSC directly and then I have a Bandridge 3 port auto SCART switcher that has the SNES, Saturn, and Jaguar connected off it into the SCART input on the OSSC.

[derFunkenstein]

3 hours ago, -^Cro§Bow^- said:

Extron 7SC

Whoa, these things look like they're only around $25 or so on eBay. They up-convert S-Video to VGA? That's WAY less than a RetroTINK with HDMI to VGA adapter. What's the catch?

[c0op3r]

2 minutes ago, derFunkenstein said:

Whoa, these things look like they're only around $25 or so on eBay. They up-convert S-Video to VGA? That's WAY less than a RetroTINK with HDMI to VGA adapter. What's the catch?

Looks to me like the catch is the damn BNC connectors and making adapters or cables.  My Lifge in Gaming mentioned them in a YouTube video.

[derFunkenstein]

5 minutes ago, c0op3r said:

Looks to me like the catch is the damn BNC connectors and making adapters or cables.  My Lifge in Gaming mentioned them in a YouTube video.

I'm looking at the reference manual for the 7SC: https://www.extron.com/download/files/userman/68-499-01_E_whole_Sys7SC_052009.pdf

 

It looks like it has a single S-Video input on #7 and a single DB15-style RGBHV output. So if you don't want RGB (S-Video is what caught my eye), you can maybe skip the BNC connectors? In that case it's pretty bulky for just converting S-Video to something an OSSC can use, but it'd also double as an RGB switch with (as you mentioned) those danged BNC ports. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by derFunkenstein

[c0op3r]

I created another thread with an idea I was bouncing around about a modern display for retro gaming:

 

Modern Display Idea for Retro Gaming

 

I hope that some of you will read it and reply with ideas and suggestions.  It seems there is an up tapped market out there for this kind of thing.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 hour ago, derFunkenstein said:

I'm looking at the reference manual for the 7SC: https://www.extron.com/download/files/userman/68-499-01_E_whole_Sys7SC_052009.pdf

 

It looks like it has a single S-Video input on #7 and a single DB15-style RGBHV output. So if you don't want RGB (S-Video is what caught my eye), you can maybe skip the BNC connectors? In that case it's pretty bulky for just converting S-Video to something an OSSC can use, but it'd also double as an RGB switch with (as you mentioned) those danged BNC ports. 

It does indeed have a standard s-video input on the front of it. I actually made all my own cables for using s-video and that really wasn't that big a deal. You can buy them premade but they are way too expensive for no more than what is needed in this case. The audio is the biggest pain in the butt because of the phoenix connectors. Again, I had to fabricate connections so I could use standard RCA inputs. 

 

The extron does feature a standard DB-15 for RGBHV (VGA) output or you can use the BNC connectors. I'm actually using a BNC to DB-15 adapter on mine for better isolation of the color signals and it really wasn't that pricey for that adapter cable. 

 

So yeah, I know quite a few people that use these and several of them in tandem for RGB in to VGA out. In fact I even have a semi cheap VGA to HDMI adapter from Sewell that works extremely well and was what I was using initially for my Dreamcast until I found out about the 7SC.

[+sixersfan105]

On 9/2/2019 at 12:26 PM, c0op3r said:

I guess the part that was so baffling me was that the TV shows a picture in the composite. I was thinking if it has a picture on the composite it should show a picture on the component input also.

To the contrary, this is extremely common. The HD Retrovision Genesis Component Cables only work with some TVs. Have you viewed the FAQs and support pages? Here's some info: 

https://www.hdretrovision.com/240p

[c0op3r]

43 minutes ago, sixersfan105 said:

To the contrary, this is extremely common. The HD Retrovision Genesis Component Cables only work with some TVs. Have you viewed the FAQs and support pages? Here's some info: 

https://www.hdretrovision.com/240p

Thank you for the reply - I really did end up getting an education about playing 'classic' gaming systems on more modern displays.

Last time I played any of these systems was about 25 years ago, and back then even my 42" plasma could handle the systems directly.  So when a few things made it worth getting back into these systems (in my case those systems are: Genesis, Saturn, NeoGeo and PCE), what made it possible to get into them again was the devices like the SSD3, the NeoSD and more recently the MegaSD.

As I mentioned when I had that original Plasma TV, component video input to that made connection ease and brainless, even if that TV weighed 85lbs!

So I recently (with my new research and education) ended up picking up some things so that I can play the above machines on a somewhat modern display.

I got an OSSC to upscale the image, a Hydra Mini so that I dont have to switch the cables around,  an Asus 24" computer monitor that is 16:10 but has a 4:3 mode with a 'gaming' setting. also I got the appropriate DIN to SCART cable for each system (in this case the ones from Insurrection Cables).  I did have to get a SCART to SCART cable to come out of the Hydra Mini to go to the OSSC, but the Hydra is auto select so its not really a big deal. Funny side note how the SCART cable was pretty much unheard of in the us (and really still is) but the retro gaming community has really picked up on it in the US.

The monitor does not have speakers but it does have an 1/8" output jack so I am going to just use a small set of computer speakers for output of the sound, since the SCART, OSSC and HDMI carry the sound.

Now all of this was not cheap mind you (but then again that original Plasma TV I bought 20+ years ago was 10k$ at the time so in comparison its was not bad.  It will be interesting to see how this continues because I do not see anyone going out and getting an old 40" tube TV or even an old plasma (I wonder if any of those are still working) to play games, but I do not see the machines going away, quite the contrary, with new ways to play these machines and games on original hardware but with the cost of the collectors market for original software, I see the machines being quite sought after.

I am a little shocked no one has thought about marketing a flat panel display that handles the output of the classic machines directly.
 

[derFunkenstein]

Samsung isn't marketing them as such, but HDRetrovision links a couple models that handle their component cables well. I don't have any experience with them, though. 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I really liked my Samsung I was using before the Sony I have now. But a firmware update on it just a month after its warranty expired..bricked it... so I've been a bit sour on Samsung lately. My Sony is great but isn't compatible with the SMS or SNES in 240p modes. Although the Genesis did work just fine. So that was a large reason for my ultimately going with the OSSC. Although even through that, I still have screen blanking issues from the SNES sometimes. But only on some games so I still don't know what that is about.

 

[nick3092]

3 hours ago, -^Cro§Bow^- said:

Although even through that, I still have screen blanking issues from the SNES sometimes. But only on some games so I still don't know what that is about.

 

Hmm. I recently noticed something similar with my SNES, HDRV cable, and OSSC. In Super Metroid, sometimes if I save at the ship (easiest way to reproduce, maybe 1 out of 6 times saving in a row), or randomly when changing screens, the light goes red on my OSSC, and my tv goes black for a second. Then OSSC light goes green and it comes back.

 

I think it did it for a much longer time in DKC2 or 3. Also seems to occur most frequently when the SNES has been on for a while too. Haven't had a chance to investigate much. Was also thinking about getting a high quality SCART cable from RetroAccess to eliminate issues with the HDRV circuitry, but haven't yet. 

 

Is that similar to what you are seeing?

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Yes...but on my setup it happens more when first powering on the SNES and seems to stable out a bit the longer it is left on. Secret of Mana is one game that does this a lot pretty much constantly during the intro sequences and occasionally during game play. Ninja Warriors doesn't seem to do this nor many other games. I'm thinking what triggers it, is some sort of resolution being used or the way the screen is being generated in those games. I've actually tried about 3 different SCART cables and they all do it to some degree. I've got my OSSC adjusted according to FirebrandX's recommended setups but still happens. I've been told that some SNES just do this and that is why they have the de-jitter mods available for them. 

[nick3092]

Hmm. I have heard of the SNES de-jitter mod, but haven't had the time or inclination to investigate up to this point. I don't really feel like modding my SNES at this point. And I'm guessing it can't be fixed externally, or else HDRV or RA would have built something in their cables to prevent it.

 

Guess I'll have to read up on it. Too bad Borderlands 3 and the Zelda remake just came out for Switch. Might be a while before I get around to dealing with retro stuff again.

[nick3092]

I mentioned this behavior to Mobius Strip Tech. He confirmed it is most likely a result of the SNES jitter issue.

 

Kind of odd on my SNES exhibits it more upon warming up, vs right off the bat and lessening over time for Crossbow. But nothing in this hobby tends to surprise me any more.

[c0op3r]

So just an update to my configuration, I am still waiting on my Dreamcast cable, and the custom cabinet to get built but I got enough of the parts to test out the complete video chain today.

 

The chain goes from the system (Neo Geo, Sega Genesis[triple bypassed], Sega Saturn, Sega Dreamcast and/or PCEngine [with SSSD3 w/ RGB & audio amp mod])

->Lotharek Hydra Mini via SCART cables

->OSSC via SCART to SCART

-> ASUS 16:10 27" monitor (the monitor has a 4:3 game mode)

 

Speakers are a simple pair of USB powered computer speakers

 

The cabinet is going to have a 5" deep false back to hide all the wiring.

 

I am very happy it all works (so far) and that this is finally coming together, I will post more photos as I get farther along.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I really like Insurrection Industries cables! Very affordable and right here in the U.S. !

 

I went with putting a DCHDMI into my DC and installed the Hi-Def NES well over a year ago for my NES and have those going into a simple 4-port HDMI switcher. Only my Saturn (Looks amazing), SNESjr, and my Jaguar are currently connected via SCART RGB. Although as I mentioned above, I still have video drop out issues with my SNES that varies from game to game.

[eightbit]

Not bad. I found among the many "easy" ways you can go with your cables and connections for vintage consoles for  RGB is either all SCART and something like an OSSC, or all HDRetroVision and using something like the RetroTink2X. Once you start investing in one way to go...well that is the way you go. I took the RetroTink2X and HDRetroVision route. I now have all consoles in my collection that can natively accept RGB in one way or another running with HDRetroVision cables into component switchers and then to the Tink2X and to a modern Polaroid flatscreen....and the results are astounding!

 

If I had invested in a SCART setup from the get-go instead my connectivity would look much different but the outcome would be the same. Just got to pick one and stick with it.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Since it was mentioned in this thread and I didn't feel I needed to create another one. I went back into looking at my issues with my SNES and my OSSC when .85 was released. What I found was that I could use 2x mode just fine through RGB but at that mode it is a tiny window in the middle of my TV screen. So I have to use the Zoom function to get it to fill the screen more. That would cause it to look blurry of course.

 

Anway, the TL:DR is that I did purchase the dejitter board from a guy here in the US and installed it last night. Now I have the SNES working at 5x mode 1920x1200 resolution on my Sony TV without any issues! So the dejitter does the job. Since I have an SNES jr model, it wasn't that big a deal to install. Took WAY more work for me to add in the components needed to restore s-video and RGB on it several years ago than what was involved with this. So I do advise this mod if you have issues with your SNES not syncing to your OSSC.

 

I've also been told the issue isn't the OSSC but more the TV not liking it. I disagree with this statement simply because when the screen would blank out and lose sync, my OSSC would turn red to indicate it was losing the signal as well. Anyway, the dejitter did work. I did have to add one step that I had already taken care of when I did my RGB stuff but isn't in the installation docs. I have a wire being ran from the S-rgb pin 18 to the MultiAV Pin 3. Not sure why since near as I can tell, pin 18 on the S-rgb is listed as NC but without that wire in place, I can't get any RGB at all to work. So I did have to reinstall that wire on my RGB setup. 

 

All of this is made much simpler if you just get one of the all in one combo boards that solders directly to the multiAV out and then run the wires where needed. In the future I might do that to clean it up but what I have is working great for me currently though not as pretty with all the separate discreet components added here and there.