VintageGamer74 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 GunForce II or Metal Slug 1 through anything!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swapd0 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Remember that the Jaguar only has 2MB, and for a Metal Slug you need a lot more memory... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VintageGamer74 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, swapd0 said: Remember that the Jaguar only has 2MB, and for a Metal Slug you need a lot more memory... Thanks for the reminder. I do know that but I was just mentioning games that I remember and played. I was and still am a 2-D fan! Too bad the Jag didn't have more ram, less bugs and a dedicated sound chip. Don't know if it would have helped with market share but maybe it would have alleviated some programming headaches. Not a programmer. Just making an assumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swapd0 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 20 minutes ago, VintageGamer74 said: Thanks for the reminder. I do know that but I was just mentioning games that I remember and played. I was and still am a 2-D fan! Too bad the Jag didn't have more ram, less bugs and a dedicated sound chip. And a bigger CLUT, more Objects in the OP, a cache into OP, DSP, GPU & Blitter, more transparency modes, a command queue for the blitter... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimchipenguin Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/7/2019 at 8:21 PM, pacman000 said: And two million units to retailers doesn't sound all that incredible; if ten thousand stores each ordered two hundred units you'd have 2,000,000 preorders. (Or twenty thousand stores ordered 100 units, etc.) Of course this is highly speculative & based on a few assumptions. Consider it a hypothesis, one which needs a lot of testing. Just having ten thousand stores selling the Jaguar would've been a huge success for Atari. In Germany, the Jaguar was mainly sold & advertized by small mail order dealers or some dealers who sold Atari computers - and why would they stock 100 units with only a couple of games available? Some shops offered pre-orders, even for games that were never released (or never developed as it turned out). Atari couldn't even deliver Jaguar kiosks to the big department stores... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VintageGamer74 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, swapd0 said: And a bigger CLUT, more Objects in the OP, a cache into OP, DSP, GPU & Blitter, more transparency modes, a command queue for the blitter... That's a whole laundry list of things that it needed. With all of its shortcomings. What realistically could the Jaguar do? I just remember being underwhelmed with the Jaguar compared to the 3DO, some 32X titles and some Super Nes and Gensis titles. Even the Neo Geo had better fighting games. Not to mention it had Metal Slug. Something the Jaguar would have issues running. I know graphics aren't everything but it just wasn't that leap over 16-bit systems that I expected. Even the 3DO, to me, was ahead in a lot of areas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalani Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/10/2019 at 6:29 AM, VladR said: From the top of my memory, MK3 was still 2D, just like MK2, right ? Was there something technically different about MK3 compared to MK2 ? Perhaps it switched to higher resolution already ? If so, that wouldn't run well on jag (there's interlace mode, but it has its own set of issues). I haven't played MK3, so don't really remember. Besides, How many characters and environments could fit on a 6 MB cart ? Probably not even half of them. Would have to be a CD release... The game play physics was different between mk3 had run ability mk 2 had better controls and game play. They did umk 3 on Sega and snes. Shang tsung morphs makes cd versions inferior to the cartridge as far as gameplay. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalani Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 2 hours ago, swapd0 said: Remember that the Jaguar only has 2MB, and for a Metal Slug you need a lot more memory... It's almost 50% more than to he neo geo... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swapd0 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 16 minutes ago, Kalani said: It's almost 50% more than to he neo geo... The Neo Geo doesn't need a lot of RAM because it reads the graphics and sound data from the cartridge, and they can be huge, also all sprites are in 4bits, so they don't take too much memory. 50 minutes ago, VintageGamer74 said: That's a whole laundry list of things that it needed. With all of its shortcomings. What realistically could the Jaguar do? I just remember being underwhelmed with the Jaguar compared to the 3DO, some 32X titles and some Super Nes and Gensis titles. Even the Neo Geo had better fighting games. Not to mention it had Metal Slug. Something the Jaguar would have issues running. I know graphics aren't everything but it just wasn't that leap over 16-bit systems that I expected. Even the 3DO, to me, was ahead in a lot of areas. It's just an optimisation of the current machine, I don't understand why Atari released the console so fast when as soon as you code something you find a lot of bottlenecks and some missing features. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sd32 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, swapd0 said: Remember that the Jaguar only has 2MB, and for a Metal Slug you need a lot more memory... Wouldnt loading at the start and at mid level and once again when you reach the boss help? The PS1 version did that, and it didnt ruin the game. Plus, loading times for a cartridge wouldnt be that long, right? I really dont know how that works. But even then, they had to cut some animation on the PS1 version, but was still pretty darn good. And then you would have the issue of cart sizes. But now we have flash carts! I had such big hope for Legion Force Jidai to turn into a reality... Edited October 22, 2019 by sd32 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, swapd0 said: The Neo Geo doesn't need a lot of RAM because it reads the graphics and sound data from the cartridge, and they can be huge, also all sprites are in 4bits, so they don't take too much memory. It's just an optimisation of the current machine, I don't understand why Atari released the console so fast when as soon as you code something you find a lot of bottlenecks and some missing features. Fighting games are ALL about artwork and gamedesign and implenting game mechanics - its really nothing missing features of the hardware that could be blamed for the lack of quality. The Jaguar can read and unpack (reealtime) graphics from ROM as far as I know. You can use a mixture of 16 bit, 8 bit, 4 bit and even 2 bit sprites and bitmaps to use the RAM efficiently. And like I have written before, other systems have missing features and bottlenecks too, like the SNES has a very slow 4 MHZ CPU and 128 Kbyte RAM while people consider the 13 MHZ 68000 and 2 MB of the Jag a bottleneck - lol. Most SNES games are 256 colors, RAM is the limit. That is the proportion you are looking at when complaining about the hardware, a bit absurd IMO. Compared to SNES and NEOGEO the Jaguar is a VERY capable machine and its easily on PAR in most regards with the 32X and 3DO, especially when talking about 2D games (the 32X is rather weak) Technically a lot of NEOGEO games are possible on the Jaguar hardware, generally the visual quality of Jaguar 2D games could be just as pleasing and a lot of things could be done the NEGEO surely could not, like using more colors with 16 bit sprites and backgrounds and some more advanced effects with the speedy GPU and the Blitter. With the plenty amount of RAM you can use a LOT of animation frames for the sprites, especially if they are only 4 bit/16 color. Edited October 23, 2019 by agradeneu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, sd32 said: Wouldnt loading at the start and at mid level and once again when you reach the boss help? The PS1 version did that, and it didnt ruin the game. Plus, loading times for a cartridge wouldnt be that long, right? I really dont know how that works. But even then, they had to cut some animation on the PS1 version, but was still pretty darn good. And then you would have the issue of cart sizes. But now we have flash carts! I had such big hope for Legion Force Jidai to turn into a reality... You can read graphics data on the fly from ROM, just a matter of ROM size really. A Metal Slug clone would be an absurd amount of high quality graphics and animation assets, that is the main issue. Generally your whole game does not need to fit into RAM, you can use 2MB for a level or even a section of a level. 2MB for a level is PLENTY, especially if you consider the available ROM space - without packing data there would be just 2 levels for a 4MB cartridge and 3 for a 6 MB! Edited October 23, 2019 by agradeneu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, VintageGamer74 said: That's a whole laundry list of things that it needed. With all of its shortcomings. What realistically could the Jaguar do? I just remember being underwhelmed with the Jaguar compared to the 3DO, some 32X titles and some Super Nes and Gensis titles. Even the Neo Geo had better fighting games. Not to mention it had Metal Slug. Something the Jaguar would have issues running. I know graphics aren't everything but it just wasn't that leap over 16-bit systems that I expected. Even the 3DO, to me, was ahead in a lot of areas. Use the hardware to its strength - that is the secret of good games you are mentioned. You can think/complain of missing hardware feats the whole day - ANY hardware has shortcomings and missing some cool feats a coder or artist would like to have. Regarding the Jag: you can do a LOT of things which are absoletely impossible to do on the SNES or Genesis. The Jag can do better 2D games than both 32X and 3DO and it actually DID - Ubi chose Jaguar as the leading platform for Rayman for some reason - not other game had that level of color, art quality and fluid animation before, not even NEOGEO. Edited October 23, 2019 by agradeneu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 hour ago, swapd0 said: The Neo Geo doesn't need a lot of RAM because it reads the graphics and sound data from the cartridge, and they can be huge, also all sprites are in 4bits, so they don't take too much memory. It's just an optimisation of the current machine, I don't understand why Atari released the console so fast when as soon as you code something you find a lot of bottlenecks and some missing features. How many OP objects do you need? Programmers got 100s on screen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, JagChris said: How many OP objects do you need? Programmers got 100s on screen http://www.duranik.com/jaguar.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VintageGamer74 Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 hour ago, agradeneu said: Use the hardware to its strength - that is the secret of good games you are mentioned. You can think/complain of missing hardware feats the whole day - ANY hardware has shortcomings and missing some cool feats a coder or artist would like to have. Regarding the Jag: you can do a LOT of things which are absoletely impossible to do on the SNES or Genesis. The Jag can do better 2D games than both 32X and 3DO and it actually DID - Ubi chose Jaguar as the leading platform for Rayman for some reason - not other game had that level of color, art quality and fluid animation before, not even NEOGEO. Thanks for the explanation. Like I said. I'm not a programmer or graphic designer so I'm not going to pretend to know anything about game development. I guess when I look at the Jag library as a gamer I was let down because it had more misses than hits. I was just hoping, at the time, that Atari and the Jaguar would take off and become a hit. Unfortunately, it did not. But there is a lot to look forward too from some talented folks like yourself. Cheers! ??✌ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 hour ago, agradeneu said: http://www.duranik.com/jaguar.html They can do better than that. http://www.3do.cdinteractive.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3355#p36279 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 2 hours ago, JagChris said: They can do better than that. http://www.3do.cdinteractive.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3355#p36279 Yeah, but Natives sprites are 16 bit, fluidly animated and look better. Also the sprite sizes are important for the number. higher number does not mean better. The sprite engine is 3K and fits into GPU SRAM, as you can read on Duraniks Jaguar page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeneu Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 3 hours ago, VintageGamer74 said: Thanks for the explanation. Like I said. I'm not a programmer or graphic designer so I'm not going to pretend to know anything about game development. I guess when I look at the Jag library as a gamer I was let down because it had more misses than hits. I was just hoping, at the time, that Atari and the Jaguar would take off and become a hit. Unfortunately, it did not. But there is a lot to look forward too from some talented folks like yourself. Cheers! ??✌ Thanks. To me Jaguar seems to be the only console on earth where izts fans regard it as trash and dont value it asthe capable gaming machine it is. If my artwork was trash I could easily blame the hardware - its basically a freepass for almost anything. Seriously if you think the Jaguar is lacking, move on and try to develope for Dreamcast. But then yu would deal with a demanding audience hoilding their console in high regard, so no freepass for blame shifting and self confirming bias. The quality of looks and graphics is irrelevant to hardware power, a ugly as sin bitmap is the same byte size as a beautiful one, so use your bytes wisely! I learned a lot of optimization doing some graphics for the morelimited Lynx. I was like some 500 bytes over the limit and everything glitched out. I spent 3 hours to optimize the graphics to hit the sweet spot, without sacrificing visual quality. Since the Lynx is held in high regard bitching and moaning about its limits was not an option Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, agradeneu said: Yeah, but Natives sprites are 16 bit, fluidly animated and look better. Also the sprite sizes are important for the number. higher number does not mean better. The sprite engine is 3K and fits into GPU SRAM, as you can read on Duraniks Jaguar page. Everyone calls out Native.. however... as I've said many times, that one level uses nearly all the RAM.... there isn't any sound and the display is ALREADY overloaded and tears badly in places. It is a fantastic demo, making it a game with that quality however..... 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 hour ago, agradeneu said: Yeah, but Natives sprites are 16 bit, fluidly animated and look better. Also the sprite sizes are important for the number. higher number does not mean better. The sprite engine is 3K and fits into GPU SRAM, as you can read on Duraniks Jaguar page. Look better than what? What are we comparing? As for higher number not meaning better, the point of this was swap complaining about the OP supposedly being limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sd32 Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 56 minutes ago, CyranoJ said: Everyone calls out Native.. however... as I've said many times, that one level uses nearly all the RAM.... there isn't any sound and the display is ALREADY overloaded and tears badly in places. It is a fantastic demo, making it a game with that quality however..... Maybe if they made the level shorter to save some RAM? That level is about twice as long as the original R Type first level, and has more enemy variety. I dont like very long levels on shooters, i prefer to have shorter ones, but more of them. You would need the extra memory just for the sound FXs, since it would play CD music, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 minute ago, sd32 said: Maybe if they made the level shorter to save some RAM? That level is about twice as long as the original R Type first level, and has more enemy variety. I dont like very long levels on shooters, i prefer to have shorter ones, but more of them. You would need the extra memory just for the sound FXs, since it would play CD music, right? How would that help with the tearing? Maybe if they reduced the object count and took away some of the nice backdrops, or dropped the fps, or, or, or..... And using the CD gives you 4mb ROM less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swapd0 Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 22 minutes ago, JagChris said: Look better than what? What are we comparing? As for higher number not meaning better, the point of this was swap complaining about the OP supposedly being limited. Put a cache for the list so you don't need to read it on each scan line and you'll get a big boost. The OP it's fast but it could be a lot faster with some simple changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Or, you know, just accept it for what it is and move elsewhere if you ain't satisfied or can't code well enough to use it [edited for clarity] general comment, not aimed at anyone. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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