just had to say that...

[Guest]

but after 3 pages the problem has not been solved. therefor. its better that everyone just shuts up in this thread. it was supposed to give some information.

 

but then again. this is the jag forum. as someone said.

 

in the jag forum nobody listens. but start trolling instead. (or something like that)

[Tyrant]

I for one am very glad Thunderbird is excluded from the serious developer group(s), as it allows the people with real coding skills to get on with actually coding and not endlessly arguing about who has the best "kung foo".

 

I find it very interesting to note that EVERY locked topic in the Jaguar forum involved an argument with Thunderbird. Without wanting to start yet another argument, I think thats more than a coincidence, dont you?

 

Oh, and the groups arnt just invitation only, there is one other, special, requirement for entry *giggles*.

[JagChris]

What other serious developers? Scatologic seems to be the only serious developing company left for our Jag.

 

I am not sure I understand how any new CD releases would work for the Jag. Will we need BJL or JUGS to run them? And if so, would Scatologic please, please consider making any future CD projects BJL compatible also? If they are only JUGS compatible then that means those without Battlesphere would be out of luck with any new Scatologic releases on CD, whether they are BS:G add on or not.

 

Another thing. Do I need to modify my Jag to use BJL to run CDs?

[Tyrant]

What other serious developers? Scatologic seems to be the only serious developing company left for our Jag.

Ah, but apearances can be deceptive. There are several (at least one, I think more) private mailing lists upon which the Jaguar programers discus things in small groups. They're invitation only because, without wanting to offend anyone, too much time would be wasted trying to explain things to people who dont know anything about Jag coding, and to keep discusions focused on important topics.

 

I am not sure I understand how any new CD releases would work for the Jag. Will we need BJL or JUGS to run them? And if so, would Scatologic please, please consider making any future CD projects BJL compatible also? If they are only JUGS compatible then that means those without Battlesphere would be out of luck with any new Scatologic releases on CD, whether they are BS:G add on or not.

Jaguar games are cryptographically signed (encripted, kinda) to prevent piracy. The keys to encript new games were lost when Atari folded, and so technically no new games could be released. Battlesphere (or was it Gold) is encripted, although it was released after the death of Atari, because they had a bank of modified alpines running for months trying to brute force it (try every possible encription code until one worked). However, other new released on cartridge have been possible because somebody discovered a universal code which will allways allow the game to run, even tho the signature dosnt match the game image.

 

CD games are also protected, but their key is much bigger, and nobody has yet cracked it (or attempted it, the key was designed that it would take longer to crack than the age of the universe). Using the universal cartridge header, BS:Gold (I think), and Protector:SE were made, as well as the B&C Bypass cart. They allow people to run CD games that are not encripted, because a cartridge game can access the CD directly, and thus transfer control of the system to the game on CD. Alternatively, you can load a similar bypass program into the Jaguar via BJL, JUGS or Jaguar Server, Alpine, Flash cart, or any of the other less common upload systems, when you run the program, it loads the first block of code from the CD into memory and executes it, thus transfering control to the CD game and letting it play.

 

The confusion comes from the fact that both BSG and PSE have similar but different ways of doing this. Scatologic decided to call theirs Jugs DD, which is confusing because its name is very similar to JUGS, an entirely different subprogram of BSG, while Songbird called his solution JagFree CD. Both systems are compatible, in that they will both start any unencripted CD, but they have different methods of saving game data. Thankfully this isnt a problem for gamers yet since no games use either method. Jugs DD is on BSG, and JagFree CD is on both PSE and the B&C bypass cart (early versions didnt have the memory save included, but that was fixed). It is also possible to launch an unencripted CD by using either a developer, or hacked, replacement/additional CD bios chip.

 

Both PSE and BSG also include direct upload programs, which let you load small games (that were designed to run out of memory) directly into the Jaguar ram. Again, they are completely different systems, but functionally the same. BSG uses JUGS, which runs via a Jaglink into a serial port on a pc, and PSE uses the more popular BJL system, which connects via a paralell cable into the second Joystick port. BJL is more popular because it is also availible as a hardware modification, an additional/replacement boot chip for the Jaguar. The hardware version also has many more features than the basic implimentation included in PSE.

 

Another thing. Do I need to modify my Jag to use BJL to run CDs?

No, in theory you could insert PSE, boot the BJL uploader, upload the BJL cd bypass and execute it, and let that transfer control to the CD, however there is no point as PSE already contains its own CD bypass code.

 

Wow, thats a long post, and I hope, the most complete answer possible. Oh, incase anyone is wondering:

BSG = BattleSphere Gold

PSE = Protector:Special Edition

JUGS = actually Im not sure lol

BJL = Behind Jaggy Lines

[JagChris]

Do you guys document anything about how to program the Jag? Couldn't you just send the new aspiring developers copies of the documents they can read for themselves so you dont have to explain everything and can focus on 'important topics?'

 

I want to apologize to Lars and his team, as I know they are coming around the corner with their shooter, for not including them as serious developers. And also to the team doing MAD BODIES, as they have proved they are also serious developers with their soon-to-be release. And also to Hyper-eye, as I know he is desiring to develope something and he seems to be a man of intent. I hope I haven't missed anyone.

[Atari_Owl]

I am not sure I understand how any new CD releases would work for the Jag. Will we need BJL or JUGS to run them? And if so, would Scatologic please, please consider making any future CD projects BJL compatible also? If they are only JUGS compatible then that means those without Battlesphere would be out of luck with any new Scatologic releases on CD, whether they are BS:G add on or not.  

 

Another thing. Do I need to modify my Jag to use BJL to run CDs?

 

Please don't worry about this, there are MANY ways to run the CDs. In no particular order

 

B&C Bypass cart (no EEPROM yet i think) - No HArdware Mod needed

BJL by Modification of the Jaguar

BJL by using Protector SE- No HArdware Mod needed

Protector SE Bypass (With EEPROM)- No HArdware Mod needed

Battlesphere (Gold only is that right?) Bypass (with EEPROM)- No HArdware Mod needed

JUGS- No HArdware Mod needed

Alpine Bypass Code

 

So there's lots of options.

 

I don't believe Scatalogic would want to restrict their sales by making something which could only be run if you already have a specific game which is hard to come by.

 

I think people are worrying here a little unnecessarily.

 

What other serious developers? Scatologic seems to be the only serious developing company left for our Jag.  

 

I would also ask that you remember that it takes a LONG time to program things on the Jag, Battlesphere took (i believe, please correct me if i'm wrong) 5 years with 3 people. Thats a LOT of work (and it shows). But some of us have been active on the jag less than a year. Everything takes time.

 

In addition, it is generally a good idea for people to not overly publicise what they're working on since tyhe Jag community is renowned for giving developers whole heaps of shit about it. If its not arriving fast enough etc.

 

Now this partly understandable due to clowns like Dark Knight, etc, but it does mean that people prefer to keep their heads down and get on with the work.

 

Cheers.

[Tyrant]

Do you guys document anything about how to program the Jag? Couldn't you just send the new aspiring developers copies of the documents they can read for themselves so you dont have to explain everything and can focus on 'important topics?'

Indeed there is something like that, and you can find it here:

http://www.starcat-dev.de/products.php

 

Its got virtually all the tools and docs you'll ever need.

[Atari_Owl]

The files used to be free for download from www.atari-jaguar64.de (also Lars' site) but somebody ruined it for everybody by downloading them hundreds of times and messing up Lars' bandwidth allowance. Thats why they're on a CD now.

[JagChris]

If the docs are so available on how to program the Jag, why is the underground worried about teaching new developers? Why not just let them in? Refer them to these places if they have specific Jag questions.

[Tyrant]

I dont know why, I know I prefer it (as both a player and from the point of view of a developer) that the lists are private. As a gamer I can be confidant that the programers are given lots of peace and quiet to get on with writing new games, and as a programer I would want to have a place I can talk with other people who understand the issues involved in a quiet, non-pulic place. Also of course, if I were to say for example, that Im going to be writing a game, and asking for detailed technical help with a bug Im having, in a public forum, people would be all over me asking for details, telling me what features they want (or demanding in some cases), and then within a few weeks, there would be complaints about why its not finished yet. Most people would be more sensible than that, but there are allways some. In a private dev only environment, where other people know these issues too, there isnt that worry and people are able to talk about their projects openly.

 

As for wanting to learn to code... ask questions here, lots of Jaguar programers come here, and all of them (with the possible exception of Thunderbird) are more than willing to answer technical questions to help people get started coding.

[+Sauron]

Sorry guys, but I'm locking this thread as I see it quickly exploding into yet another flamewar. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask ALL of the Jag developers to treat each other with respect, regardless of any differences you guys may have. Some of you appear to be begging for a fight, and I'm going to have to ask that you take that fight elsewhere.