ilmenit Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 8 minutes ago, Jetboot Jack said: sorry - that looks horrible! looking at the history of this thread "do not take quality of early work-in-progress version as the final one" 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derSammler Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: Geezus. For a game many here are critical of, I think sales of 2,000,000 units, of which 1,250,000 were sold on other platforms after the initial release (by the time many had heard all about the controls) speaks for itself. No, it does not! Sale numbers don't tell anything about quality. If you have good marketing, you can sell any sh*t to the people (as proven many, many times). The other way around is true as well. Many great games failed in the market with very poor sales. Edited October 8, 2021 by derSammler 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, ilmenit said: looking at the history of this thread "do not take quality of early work-in-progress version as the final one" Sorry I have no idea what that means - I was meaning the BBC version looks awful, and that I managed a small part of the game looking much closer C64 back in the day, notwithstanding it unlimitedly failed (for other non technical reasons).... sTeVE Edited October 8, 2021 by Jetboot Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, derSammler said: No, it does not! Sale numbers don't tell anything about quality. If you have good marketing, you can sell any sh*t to the people (as proven many, many times). The other way around is true as well. Many great games failed in the market with very poor sales. At the end of the day, I see little difference between either PoP or TLN. Both don't scroll, both appear similar in relation to character sprite numbers and movement. The difference is one is predictably linear in movement with little background audio and repetitive scenery, while the other is interestingly parallax in movement with an outstanding soundtrack and inviting colorful graphics. Both have frustrating controls, and that's part of what makes the game somewhat challenging. I think TLN has better puzzles. So circling back to the notion that TLN is boring compared to PoP, I disagree. I think the only Sh*t sold in vast numbers is McDonalds and Microsoft Windows. Edited October 8, 2021 by Mazzspeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 12 hours ago, rensoup said: I'm pretty sure it's the other way around, starting is easy, getting it finished is the hard part ? This 100% - I have made several dozen games in my life none have been easy to finish (mind you many have been difficult to start too) - but the last 10% consumes more effort and energy than the first 50% in my experience... sTeVE 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Jetboot Jack said: sorry - that looks horrible! As someone who actually undertook converting (yes and failed in the end, but that's a different story) LNII "back in the day" despite the few and low-res Atari sprites causing a few issues actually replicating the C64's environment graphics is not that hard. The magic of going behind stuff is super simple (looks very impressive to the user though) masks. The biggest problem is the fiddly and generally annoying controls and the gameplay that results from them, it's all just frustrating IMHO - it's not a game that has stood the test of time (like quiet a few British classics) - try it now on the C64 if you don't get annoyed in ten minutes you are one of the few! sTeVE Most remember the iconic Ninja title screen... Ben's outstanding sound track and the art of the screens itself... but yeah... game play who knows.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 37 minutes ago, Heaven/TQA said: Most remember the iconic Ninja title screen... Ben's outstanding sound track and the art of the screens itself... but yeah... game play who knows.... Oddly enough, I can't remember the title screen? Perhaps that's because I always played cracked warez! Only recently I got back into TLN and quite enjoyed it, until I reached a point about half way through, got hopelessly stuck and rage quit. I will get past that point, I just need a breather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 13 hours ago, rensoup said: It always seemed like a really boring game ? Not if you were kid with c64 back in '88-'89 Gfx looked like it's an Amiga... Music was beyond anything heard before on c64 imho. Yes controls were hard, but mostly because people didn't have (pirats ahrrrm..) or didn't read the manual where it said "press J to change control method". Game was hard, some objects hard to find, but it was best representation of 80s martial arts movies imho. Like a mix of American ninja and Warriors Last Ninja was great, Last Ninja 2 even better and LN3 was nice to look at, but not good to play... Sooo... Atari version ? No way imho. It's one thing to convert PoP as it was a '2d' game, with not many different objects in horizontal direction. In Ln there's just too much colors per scanline, sprites in hires on c64 looke pretty good, doing it with a8 mc pixels would suck. On the other hand, there's nothing stopping us from making a brand new 3d iso arcade adventure with new gfx adjusted to the best of A8 capabilites. I was even toying with idea of doing one in gtia 9 color mode 80x100 resolution 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 4 hours ago, TIX said: PS If we are looking in the c64 library, my vote goes to Turrican ! Ok. One more of my favorites. I'll put it higher on our conversion list 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, popmilo said: Gfx looked like it's an Amiga... Music was beyond anything heard before on c64 imho. IMO, the graphics were better than the Amiga port of the same game. Edited October 8, 2021 by Mazzspeed Clarity.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Mazzspeed said: I think the only Sh*t sold in vast numbers is McDonalds and Microsoft Windows. Remember Crazy Frog? Deeley Boppers? How about VHS? Elf on a shelf? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.mad. Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Mazzspeed said: I think the only Sh*t sold in vast numbers is McDonalds and Microsoft Windows. Who the **** bought Windows? ;) 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 1 minute ago, .mad. said: Who the **** bought Windows? I bought Windows 95. Now I consider myself entitled to free updates to windows for life. Also, anyone who buys a PC has bought Windows, a part of the cost went to Microsoft for the OS. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazzspeed Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, Mr Robot said: Remember Crazy Frog? Deeley Boppers? How about VHS? Elf on a shelf? You mean Elf on a shelf isn't cool anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 6 minutes ago, Mazzspeed said: You mean Elf on a shelf isn't cool anymore? Elf on a shelf, a pointless little doll that has no actual connection to Christmas other than some marketing blurb about how the creator put it in her kids bedroom to watch and see if the kid was good or bad. The year it was released it had the words "The Christmas Tradition" written on the box to try and make itself seem like it had been around for a lot longer than it had. It's another gimmick that became a popular thing, like the pet rock or cabbage patch dolls or furby or tamagotchi. Giving new products non-existent history is a common marketing thing; dBASE II was the first version of dBASE, they wanted it to seem like it had history and was therefore less buggy than a v1 product. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.mad. Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Mr Robot said: anyone who buys a PC has bought Windows, a part of the cost went to Microsoft for the OS. I think you are getting confused with any Apple product. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tep392 Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Mr Robot said: Elf on a shelf, a pointless little doll that has no actual connection to Christmas other than some marketing blurb about how the creator put it in her kids bedroom to watch and see if the kid was good or bad. The year it was released it had the words "The Christmas Tradition" written on the box to try and make itself seem like it had been around for a lot longer than it had. It's another gimmick that became a popular thing, like the pet rock or cabbage patch dolls or furby or tamagotchi. Giving new products non-existent history is a common marketing thing; dBASE II was the first version of dBASE, they wanted it to seem like it had history and was therefore less buggy than a v1 product. Those little elves existed back in the 60's, long before the "Elf on a Shelf" story was ever written. We had one as a decoration that sat on top of a wall clock every year. So for me, it was actually a tradition. But there was no story about spying on kids. Just a decoration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 5 hours ago, derSammler said: No, it does not! Sale numbers don't tell anything about quality. If you have good marketing, you can sell any sh*t to the people Absolutely. Now the key part is what people may consider or not "a shitty product". That may not only depend on the "absolute" technical qualities of it, but the circumstances, time and environment of introduction (especially what came before it). So maybe looking back, a title like The Last Ninja may have been well perceived or received by the masses... But the thing is TODAY is not yesterday, and we are looking at it, in the context of other recent 8-bit developments, as well as our own collective user-experience with many other titles, amassed during the last 30 years, AFTER the introduction of TLJ. In any case, we can clearly see today what TLJ was aiming at, what it tried to achieve (lofty-goals)... and how it how much sucks in some other departments (including fun-factor). 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 2 hours ago, .mad. said: Who the **** bought Windows? That is a question better suited to (true) MS-DOS users (at both personal and corporate levels). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNameOfTheGame Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 3 hours ago, .mad. said: Who the **** bought Windows? I bought original versions of Windows 3.1 and Office 4.2 last year :). Well, to be fair it was to set up a retro pc haha. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, popmilo said: Sooo... Atari version ? No way imho. It's one thing to convert PoP as it was a '2d' game, with not many different objects in horizontal direction. In Ln there's just too much colors per scanline, sprites in hires on c64 looke pretty good, doing it with a8 mc pixels would suck. I realise this is 100% off topic for the POP thread and perhaps should be moved to a separate LN thread, but anyways I iotally disagree - it does require a lot of visual redesign to leverage the A8's ability, but since 99% of the graphics are scenery and not gameplay that is not a problem, it's rearranging the dressing ? Sure it will not look the same as the C64 version - the A8's lack of colour attributes, fixed resolution and much less numerous sprites are going to force compromises. So it won't wow a C64 owner, the Atari simply cannot match the features equally that they leverage in the game. But that's not the point is it, if you want the C64 version play that one, this is about a conversion. First off move all the information and text below the play area, so the upper section is a narrow gameplay only space. Then look at the gameplay interactions on each screen, map them out and set these as fixed points likewise with the combat moments. the four Atari sprites can cope with the one on one game play, only really the dragons, spider and dog that would be more difficult ? sTeVE Edited October 8, 2021 by Jetboot Jack 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 2 hours ago, .mad. said: I think you are getting confused with any Apple product. I don't think anyone who buys an Apple product gives any money to Microsoft for the OS! You think that PC manufacturers get to give windows out with every PC for free? Microsoft say they get about $50 per pc if it comes with Windows bundled. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 2 hours ago, tep392 said: Those little elves existed back in the 60's, long before the "Elf on a Shelf" story was ever written. We had one as a decoration that sat on top of a wall clock every year. So for me, it was actually a tradition. But there was no story about spying on kids. Just a decoration. Well yeah, we all know Santas workshop is run by elves so they have always had representation in Christmas decor. We have them dotted around our house every year. I'm only talking about the book from 2005 with the bundled toy. The book was called "The Elf on the Shelf: A Christmas Tradition" to get the words "A Christmas Tradition" onto the packaging to give it an air of history they it didn't actually have. You could argue that now it's been around for 16 years there is an entire generation that never knew a time before it, so it really is a tradition now. I personally think there should be a "Krampus in the Corner" with eyes that glow red occasionally if you are too loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peruchi Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 I'm playing this game on my NUC, anyone knows how I can make the price perform small steps? I'm tired of dying in the first two screens... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Robot Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 press fire when moving left or right 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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