Atari ST vs. Amiga

[+DarkLord]

It's Atari 8-bit that's coming back. There are powerful web servers in beta right now, powered by 8-bit Ataris. Just you wait: Your Pentiums are about to be eclipsed.

 

 

I have one Abacus to rule them all!!!! Muhawwwwwwwwaaaahahahaha!

 

(we now return to your regularly scheduled AtariAge Forum)

 

PS Sorry, pulled 12.5 hrs last night, just got up....

Edited December 11, 2009 by DarkLord

[+wood_jl]

Oh, a Mac fanboy.. :-) Yes, PARC had the GUI concept which "inspired" (shall we say) Apple.

I'd say the genius of the Mac is the .. er.. um.. Daleks.. Definately Daleks!!! Brilliant that!

Fanboy- Ha! Nope. I see computers are tools, some are more appropriate for certain tasks than others. I don't claim my screwdrivers are more valuable than my ratchet sets. In this room, powered up and doing stuff right now is a Mac Pro, 2 XP boxes and an Atari 800XL. Each of them is doing something they do best.

 

Apple's genius is in presentation... Consistent intuitive interfaces being a keystone of that philosophy. Regardless of your bias, you have to appreciate this. If not, you need more software design classes.

 

I'm going to have to agree. I had my "Windows blinders" on for a number of years. The Apple stuff has been getting better for years. Nubus to PCI. One-button mouse to multiple. SCSI to [insert what they're using now here - SerATA?] Motorola to Intel. The Mac has become the PC...and what appears to be....quite a good one! They're just so damn expensive. The industrial design at the Mac stuff is so good that I have to admire the new machines when I go to the big box store. I haven't used one in a few years. But I couldn't stand the fact that there's no taskbar like in Windows. Even the GNOME desktop has one. I think the taskbar is a great invention; I can't stand not knowing what windows are open in the background, or going to a pull-down menu to see. I'd be lost if I couldn't observe pop-ups on the taskbar and right click them to close without looking at them. Please tell me they have something like a taskbar. One thing for sure, using modern Linux distro is a good way to ween yourself off MS Windows and show there are other ways, which opens ones eyes to Mac or any other non-MS Windows system.

[+save2600]

Stock ST's and Amiga's can't, afaik - some semi-rapid Amiga user can correct me on this if I'm wrong.

 

No rabies here! lol Yes, there are at least a few mp3 players that work with stock 68k on the Amiga, but may require external hardware (such as a soundcard or parallel port audio out type device). I can't tell you how well they work as I've never used one, but they do exist. The command line driven SoX quickly comes to mind (Sound Exchange) and that requires an AHI compatible soundcard. Most of the software decoding mp3 players with GUI front ends require an 020 or better though.

Edited December 11, 2009 by save2600

[+remowilliams]

This is why I stopped visiting amiga.org about 5 years ago. Amiga fanatics need to let go and realise that it's never coming back. I'd love an "AmigaAge" type site where you can go to talk about all things Amiga with the understanding that it's a cool retro hobby.

Those 'modern day' Amiga folks waiting for the second coming are nuts. To me if it's gone PPC its not an Amiga anymore anyway. Keep it 060 and under folks.

[desiv]

Yeah, he was way off on that one.. And there are no "s**t linux distros"!!!!

Well, RiscOS had a DOCK concept about the same time as NeXT. I get in the Linux vs BSD argument all the time with a co-worker, so that's a totally different religious war to avoid.

way off: see making accurate statements....

BSD: oh come now, BSD was an official Unix distribution. Didn't say one was better than the other, only clarifying the pedigree. BSD existed long before Linux (in fact Linus himself was only 8 when BSD was released), sorta makes it tough to call it a "s**t linux" distro

 

:?

er.. you misread my quote or something.. I would never call ANYTHING a S**t linux distro..

Big Linux fan... Yes, I know it's history..

 

I don't see anywhere that I said BSD wasn't an official Unix distribution???

I was using BSD and SYS V before the Amiga was released..

 

desiv

[+poobah]

 

:?

er.. you misread my quote or something.. I would never call ANYTHING a S**t linux distro..

Big Linux fan... Yes, I know it's history..

 

I don't see anywhere that I said BSD wasn't an official Unix distribution???

I was using BSD and SYS V before the Amiga was released..

 

desiv

oky2000 originally said OS X was based on a shitty linux distro.

just pointing out that BSD != Linux, & BSD existed long before Linux.

[kool kitty89]

And that is all on a machine with just 900mhz, 1gb RAM and a lowly Radeon 9200 video card. Try running any other OS in that spec and see how frustrated you get. Even with 3Gb of RAM and 2ghz dual core CPU there are times when opening a window for 'my computer' feels like I am using a Pentium MMX 166 and windows 98 on 8mb of RAM.

Prior to my laptop I'd been using an Athlon XP 1600+ (1400 MHz) with a Radeon 9600 (one of the cut-down versions, not sure if it was an SE though) with 512 MB DDR (133 MHz and a 60 GB HDD running windows XP. (though for the last 2-3 months I had 1 GB of DDR) Used that from around 2003 until summer of '09. (prior to that I had a ~1 GHz Pentium 3/celeron running win98, don't remember much else, didn't pay too much attention)

I was very satisfied with my Athlon machine, it played all the games I had at the time (and I wasn't that into "new" PC games, lots of older ones that had gotten cheap -released prior to '04 mostly), some Win9x software and DOS compatibility was a drag though, and VDMsound didn't work that well with my set-up. (had weird problems with extended memory in certain games like X-wing, Tie Fighter and Wing commander)

 

In general though it worked great, didn't tend to run out of memory unless I kept it running for several days (with interspersed hybernation for fast rebooting), after a couple hybernation/resumes the memory leaking tended to become excessive and I'd have to reboot though. I didn't really run into that problem until ~2007 though, usually with a lot of internet windows open (videos/numerous pictures) or some games that used very large amouts of RAM (IL-2 Sturmovik was a real problem). Video and streaming online video worked great until many codecs started relying on CPU moreso that video card acceleration, particularly the stuff tarketed for SSE2 instructions (which my AthlonXP didn't have), that and youtube (not to mention flash in general) started using more processor intensive formats. (used to play fine on my grandpa's 733 MHz P3 macine, now most play like crap and cant be expanded to full screen and be watchable -this happened within the last 12 months)

 

-Speaking of which, me grandpa was stuck with 256 MB running XP on that P3 PC (which had been upgraded from win98) and that DID really sufferlots of virtual memory shuffling. (we finally upgraded him to 640 MB, kind of a pain since it was rambus).

 

XP and Win2000 are probably the best MS have done at making an OS. If you never ever want to use DirectX 10 then XP does everything Vista does, I even have a GUI skin that replicates the Vista look 100% and that's how I use XP.

Hmm, I'm not sure DX10 is even available for 32-bit Vista.

 

The only real difference I ever found was when the machine is 99% resource used up (task manager) on Vista the GUI still remains responsive but on XP it stalls and you have to sit there and go make a cup of coffee or something till it recovers

I also noticed a lack of memory leaks, at least in my system. (and more efficient hard drive paging as well, at least it feels like it)

 

BOTH will require a forced shut down should 1 tiny byte of information not be as expected whilst burning a CD/DVD in any disc writing software...this is ridiculous and even more so as it still happens in Windows 7!

ditto a duff floppy disk can hang your machine dead even in Windows 7 also. some parts of Windows will always be pathetic and inferior to a 1985 Amiga or other 16bit machines...even 1/4 of a century later

I've never experienced this personally, although I haven't burned too many discs and didn't use floppies that often either (USB flash drives mostly). However, I did rip a lot of discs onto the hard drive without ever having a problem. (for use as virtual CDs, so much more convienient)

 

As for games well...I play them on a $150 xbox 360 instead of a $1000 PC (that will be worth 300 in 12 months time!)

That is if the peice of junk doesn't self destruct on you, some of the engineering decisions of the XBOX 360 are downright hillarious, and others are so bad it's not even funny anymore. (granted they finally addressed most problems with additional heat pipes and newer process chips, but that too way too long and MS is paying for it with all the repair costs under warantee) I do have a freind with a launch 360 that works fine, not particularly well taken care of either, just luck I guess. (and damn does it overheat easily, last summer it kept 2-bar red-rining -overheat forced shutdown- when we had it in a ~88F* room witht he console set up with full ventilation -on a steel rack actually) They should have just gone with a bulkier casing and been done with it. (using a full sized heat sink on the GPU, better air flow, and done away with those POS X-brackest and rivets yeesh!)

 

But I digress, PS3 would have been the safer investment, or Wii if you like the software lineup and aren't can tolerate the weaker graphics. (I'm more of a retro gamer anyway, just recently started collecting for the Sega Genesis and my 15 year old brother and I play the N64 and SNES more often then the Wii, and we're still adding games to those as well)

 

 

This is all way off topic though.

 

 

 

 

Apple's genius is in presentation... Consistent intuitive interfaces being a keystone of that philosophy. Regardless of your bias, you have to appreciate this. If not, you need more software design classes.

 

You know, up until the last few weeks I had no bias against MACs, used them throughout high school (G4 eMacs ca. 2004), fine for all my reasearch papaers PPT presentations, essays/compositions, web browsing, streaming/playing video (and someone even leaked a Halo demo onto the network ). I thought they were perfectly fine, however, working on newer iMACs in my computer class and MAC Pros for my Digital video class (Final Cut Pro), my oppinion has dopped a good bit. Firstly I really don't care for those new keyboards, they feel like cheap chicklet keyboard with hard caps (even my laptop is better), the mice are even funkier with side button (to squease accidentally -I quackly disables it) and finky right-clicking. Now, as for the OS, I discovered several things I dislike about it, particularly when it comes to saving files, selecting directories or seeing the full file directory path into which you're saving/navigating, that and stoff getting inadventently saved to desktop when I was just trying to preview them. (damn M3U files went everywhere on the desktop)

When saving, the save file/destination selection window just had th efinal file name, it was a huge hastle to figure out the string of files/directories it was located in (ie if it was the "pictures" file on the flash drive -which we wanted, or one of the other files of the same name in one of the harddrives or ont he desk top) It didn't help that our network user acounts had the dock locked to the bottom edge without allowing hiding...

I still like th emore numerous undos though, those come in handy.

 

Then I try to custom configure the video I just finished and am exporting, set quicktime specifically to display as single feilds (way better than coming from interlaced 1920x1080 and way better than blurred crap you get with deinterlacing), only to realize after it had transcoded, exported, and saved the file, that it didn't actually save it as line-doubled 1920x540 frames, but as 1080i, apparently single feild is only someing the player will display and won't apply it to a video being transcoded and exported. (so back to work, this time I'll have to be content with crappy deinterlacing... thoguh I much prefer crisp 1920x540/60p to blurred deinterlaced 1920x1080/30p crap -still better than combed 1080i though)

 

 

Later processors and derivatives? seriously?

And of course, the 'special case'-- optimized 8-bit code and heavy use of zero-page...

 

Okay then, lets compare to a 68060 or PowerPC (they are, after all, derivatives of the 68k)

then, we'll use 80 bit floating point multiply and divide performance as our benchmark....

 

See the ridiculousness of it all?

 

The 6502 rocked in it's day, as did the 68K, but they were different days.

 

The 65C02 is much more comperable to a 6502 than even a 68020 to a 68000 (maybe more comperable to a 68010 compared to a 68000). Anyway, th emain reason the 816 and C02 came up was in a comparison of the MegaDrive, PC Engine, and SNES CPUs. (and PC engine was the original context of the comment in this thread I beleive, software sprites with its "weak" 7.16 MHz 65C02 I beleive)

Edit: here's that quote about the PC Eningine's CPU:

( The PC-Engine was pretty fast for a 6502 machine - I wonder if it could manage as many software sprites as the ST )

What would be the benefits of having software sprites on the PC-Engine?

 

It was only fast due to the custom graphics hardware (16bit) so there would be very little point in using what precious 6502 time you have for running game logic to be wasted on insignificant software sprites.

 

 

Also, Atarisiki seems to think that the 650x architecture had a lot more potention to be built upon. (and indeed compete directly with x86 and 68k processors in the market) At least that's what I got out of a couple previous discussions with him.

Edited December 12, 2009 by kool kitty89

[potatohead]

For reference, a MIPS R4400 can software decode a stereo mp3 file, up to about 256Kbps perfectly, at 90 percent system load under SGI IRIX, clocked at some 150Mhz. I had an Indigo Elan given to me that ended up performing this task 24/7 for an office while sharing files via SAMBA. It worked, but just barely...

 

Doing this on a 060 is bad ass

 

Would love to see and hear that in action at 128Kbps or above.

[+wood_jl]

(I'm more of a retro gamer anyway, just recently started collecting for the Sega Genesis and my 15 year old brother and I play the N64 and SNES more often then the Wii, and we're still adding games to those as well)

 

Make sure you get Super Punch Out if you're collecting for SNES, and Virtua Racing for Genesis.

[kool kitty89]

(I'm more of a retro gamer anyway, just recently started collecting for the Sega Genesis and my 15 year old brother and I play the N64 and SNES more often then the Wii, and we're still adding games to those as well)

 

Make sure you get Super Punch Out if you're collecting for SNES, and Virtua Racing for Genesis.

 

Heh, Virtua Racing was the first game I bought for my Genesis. (and also the first game I emulated prior to getting a real one) I also got VR Delux for 32x for $.99 (and Kolibri for the same price), but I don't have a 32x yet. (I'm almost positive my uncle has a loose one floating around -and a SMS II- and I'm confident I can make my own mixing cable) No super punchout yet though.

 

Sorry for getting more off topic though.

[atarian63]

I beg to differ.

 

Amiga OS4.1 does everything Windows 7/Vista or OS X does....but here is a snippet of 3 things none of those other 2 OS's can do.

 

Reboot from desktop to full shut down to restart back to a useable desktop = 5 seconds!

Everything runs in RAM, there is no stupid chugging on the hard drive every.

Drag and drop files into a command line input window. (so you can type the text to extra an LHA file like 'LHA X ' then drag the file icon you want to extract into the DOS/SHELL prompt!

 

And that is all on a machine with just 900mhz, 1gb RAM and a lowly Radeon 9200 video card. Try running any other OS in that spec and see how frustrated you get. Even with 3Gb of RAM and 2ghz dual core CPU there are times when opening a window for 'my computer' feels like I am using a Pentium MMX 166 and windows 98 on 8mb of RAM.

 

Progress? What progress? We are going backwards, even with a cash starved outfit developing OS4 it still trumps anything money can buy or can be downloaded for x86 hardware of today simple as that

 

IF you could buy an AmigaONE motherboard right now I would be first in the queue and for the same price as for a quad core x86 motherboard with 4gb of RAM and Vista DVD....but you can't so there you are, proof that even today after being dead for 1 1/2 decades Amiga is still the best OS you can get....shame there is no bloody hardware to buy to run it on

if it has anything in common with the original o/s then it's still godawful. That was the main thing that was crappy about the amiga and also what made it hard to sell.

[atarian63]

(I'm more of a retro gamer anyway, just recently started collecting for the Sega Genesis and my 15 year old brother and I play the N64 and SNES more often then the Wii, and we're still adding games to those as well)

 

Make sure you get Super Punch Out if you're collecting for SNES, and Virtua Racing for Genesis.

 

Heh, Virtua Racing was the first game I bought for my Genesis. (and also the first game I emulated prior to getting a real one) I also got VR Delux for 32x for $.99 (and Kolibri for the same price), but I don't have a 32x yet. (I'm almost positive my uncle has a loose one floating around -and a SMS II- and I'm confident I can make my own mixing cable) No super punchout yet though.

 

Sorry for getting more off topic though.

Funny,that is the same stuff I am doing now, just bought a complet setup,Genesis,Sega CD and 32x. Plating T-mek and VR deluxe. VR is a nice version. I have the actual VR arcade and the 32x version is quite nice for a console. Get T-mek if you can. As far as I know 32x has the only console version.

[oky2000]

This is why I stopped visiting amiga.org about 5 years ago. Amiga fanatics need to let go and realise that it's never coming back. I'd love an "AmigaAge" type site where you can go to talk about all things Amiga with the understanding that it's a cool retro hobby.

Those 'modern day' Amiga folks waiting for the second coming are nuts. To me if it's gone PPC its not an Amiga anymore anyway. Keep it 060 and under folks.

 

I totally agree, there is no new Amiga possible unless you are going to invest billions AND have the most talented engineers in the field working for you too. So this is never going to happen, and that is why computing is a huge bucket of 'meh' for me now. There is nothing new in the computer world. The closest we have to 'alien architecture' that has a superior price performance value is the PS3....but even that uses standard NVIDIA SLi 6800GT graphics processors. The CPU however is very simple and elegant and the architecture incredibly complex...just like the Amiga chipset it requires talent to extract superb output....but also untalented coders will produce laughable results. If Amiga inc. had asked Sony if they would like the worlds best OS on there instead of Yellow Dog Linux....well....that would be a different story...but they didn't and that's the end of that. PS4 may not even exist....the way Sony's profits are looking for Y2E 2009.

 

however OS4.1 STILL does things that Windows7 and OSX or Linux/Unix can not do. For example....install Wipeout 2097 (Wipeout XL in USA? the sequel version to the first Wipeout PC game anyway) and run it. OK on the PC can you run it on a window in the desktop? Nope. OK right so even if it was possible to run it on a window on your desktop like some PC games to multitask it....do you think you could resize the window AND have it scale proportionally ALL the graphics on a DirectX game? Nope again there you go. This is an OS written by a handful of talented people....how many talentless employees is Microsoft made up of...99.9%?...that's the point

[oky2000]

I beg to differ.

 

Amiga OS4.1 does everything Windows 7/Vista or OS X does....but here is a snippet of 3 things none of those other 2 OS's can do.

 

Reboot from desktop to full shut down to restart back to a useable desktop = 5 seconds!

Everything runs in RAM, there is no stupid chugging on the hard drive every.

Drag and drop files into a command line input window. (so you can type the text to extra an LHA file like 'LHA X ' then drag the file icon you want to extract into the DOS/SHELL prompt!

 

And that is all on a machine with just 900mhz, 1gb RAM and a lowly Radeon 9200 video card. Try running any other OS in that spec and see how frustrated you get. Even with 3Gb of RAM and 2ghz dual core CPU there are times when opening a window for 'my computer' feels like I am using a Pentium MMX 166 and windows 98 on 8mb of RAM.

 

Progress? What progress? We are going backwards, even with a cash starved outfit developing OS4 it still trumps anything money can buy or can be downloaded for x86 hardware of today simple as that

 

IF you could buy an AmigaONE motherboard right now I would be first in the queue and for the same price as for a quad core x86 motherboard with 4gb of RAM and Vista DVD....but you can't so there you are, proof that even today after being dead for 1 1/2 decades Amiga is still the best OS you can get....shame there is no bloody hardware to buy to run it on

if it has anything in common with the original o/s then it's still godawful. That was the main thing that was crappy about the amiga and also what made it hard to sell.

 

 

Yeh because Mac OS1 and Windows 1.1+DOS were so much superior, as was waiting weeks for you 1st Word Plus document to scroll up and down on a non-blitter ST.....

 

People who think Amiga OS was not cutting edge in 1986 either had no clue or were fanboys....if it's so rubbish why is pre-emptive multitasking only recent in the PC/Mac world with any kind of efficiency? (still inferior to OS4 so nothing has changed since 1986 onwards...Mac/Windows/Gem were always the poor cousin to Amiga OS)

[oky2000]

(I'm more of a retro gamer anyway, just recently started collecting for the Sega Genesis and my 15 year old brother and I play the N64 and SNES more often then the Wii, and we're still adding games to those as well)

 

Make sure you get Super Punch Out if you're collecting for SNES, and Virtua Racing for Genesis.

 

Heh, Virtua Racing was the first game I bought for my Genesis. (and also the first game I emulated prior to getting a real one) I also got VR Delux for 32x for $.99 (and Kolibri for the same price), but I don't have a 32x yet. (I'm almost positive my uncle has a loose one floating around -and a SMS II- and I'm confident I can make my own mixing cable) No super punchout yet though.

 

Sorry for getting more off topic though.

 

If you loved Gauntlet 1 on the ST then definitely seek out Gauntlet IV for the Genesis

[oky2000]

 

:?

er.. you misread my quote or something.. I would never call ANYTHING a S**t linux distro..

Big Linux fan... Yes, I know it's history..

 

I don't see anywhere that I said BSD wasn't an official Unix distribution???

I was using BSD and SYS V before the Amiga was released..

 

desiv

oky2000 originally said OS X was based on a shitty linux distro.

just pointing out that BSD != Linux, & BSD existed long before Linux.

 

Sorry I meant UNIX yes haha.

 

 

 

Also your comment about Apple's presentation/style...I find their latest efforts an exercise in style over function....as koolkitty states the latest keyboards are a classic example of this...maybe they look cool but they are atrocious to use. In a world where Dell manages to make ultra low profile laptop keyboards for their XPS range that feel BETTER than most Desktop PC keyboards Apple has given us something that feels like an Oric 1 or Jupiter Ace from 1981!

 

Having one mouse button also I found extremely annoying on my old PPC Mac, I will admit the integrated 'Wings' daughter board gave excellent results for video capture though, miles better than PCs of the time...not quite as amazing as VLAB PAR and it's ilk for the Amiga 2000/3000/4000 series however...but atleast it is part of the machine and designed into it. Sometimes Apple do get it right....most often than not it is just designer sploog in the extreme with no thought of the user.

[oky2000]

Stock ST's and Amiga's can't, afaik - some semi-rapid Amiga user can correct me on this if I'm wrong.

 

No rabies here! lol Yes, there are at least a few mp3 players that work with stock 68k on the Amiga, but may require external hardware (such as a soundcard or parallel port audio out type device). I can't tell you how well they work as I've never used one, but they do exist. The command line driven SoX quickly comes to mind (Sound Exchange) and that requires an AHI compatible soundcard. Most of the software decoding mp3 players with GUI front ends require an 020 or better though.

 

Slowest MP3 playback in software only I have seen is using an 030 @ 40mhz or something. The plug in adaptors are hardware solutions...same as the MP3 players for the original PS1 console...there is no CPU load involved it's all done in the cartridge via a firmware solution.

[+wood_jl]

Heh, Virtua Racing was the first game I bought for my Genesis. (and also the first game I emulated prior to getting a real one) I also got VR Delux for 32x for $.99 (and Kolibri for the same price), but I don't have a 32x yet. (I'm almost positive my uncle has a loose one floating around -and a SMS II- and I'm confident I can make my own mixing cable) No super punchout yet though.

 

Sorry for getting more off topic though.

 

Funny,that is the same stuff I am doing now, just bought a complet setup,Genesis,Sega CD and 32x. Plating T-mek and VR deluxe. VR is a nice version. I have the actual VR arcade and the 32x version is quite nice for a console. Get T-mek if you can. As far as I know 32x has the only console version.

I have the Genesis and 32x versions as well. Yeah, the 32x version is excellent for a console. Interestingly, though, the Saturn version of VR SUCKS!!! I can't remember now, but I think they screwed up the control. 32x version *is* the best console version. Genny version is also quite an accomplishment.

 

Ok, someone scold for off-topic. Wait, that's the other thread....

Edited December 12, 2009 by wood_jl

[atarian63]

I beg to differ.

 

Amiga OS4.1 does everything Windows 7/Vista or OS X does....but here is a snippet of 3 things none of those other 2 OS's can do.

 

Reboot from desktop to full shut down to restart back to a useable desktop = 5 seconds!

Everything runs in RAM, there is no stupid chugging on the hard drive every.

Drag and drop files into a command line input window. (so you can type the text to extra an LHA file like 'LHA X ' then drag the file icon you want to extract into the DOS/SHELL prompt!

 

And that is all on a machine with just 900mhz, 1gb RAM and a lowly Radeon 9200 video card. Try running any other OS in that spec and see how frustrated you get. Even with 3Gb of RAM and 2ghz dual core CPU there are times when opening a window for 'my computer' feels like I am using a Pentium MMX 166 and windows 98 on 8mb of RAM.

 

Progress? What progress? We are going backwards, even with a cash starved outfit developing OS4 it still trumps anything money can buy or can be downloaded for x86 hardware of today simple as that

 

IF you could buy an AmigaONE motherboard right now I would be first in the queue and for the same price as for a quad core x86 motherboard with 4gb of RAM and Vista DVD....but you can't so there you are, proof that even today after being dead for 1 1/2 decades Amiga is still the best OS you can get....shame there is no bloody hardware to buy to run it on

if it has anything in common with the original o/s then it's still godawful. That was the main thing that was crappy about the amiga and also what made it hard to sell.

 

 

Yeh because Mac OS1 and Windows 1.1+DOS were so much superior, as was waiting weeks for you 1st Word Plus document to scroll up and down on a non-blitter ST.....

 

People who think Amiga OS was not cutting edge in 1986 either had no clue or were fanboys....if it's so rubbish why is pre-emptive multitasking only recent in the PC/Mac world with any kind of efficiency? (still inferior to OS4 so nothing has changed since 1986 onwards...Mac/Windows/Gem were always the poor cousin to Amiga OS)

Actually I am talking from a consumer standpoint. And those dos versions you named and mac as well were much earlier. St and mac were much easier to use and made much more sense to the novice vs dos cli or amiga comicbook and kickstart. This has nothing to do with silly esoteric technical aspects that mean little to nothing unless you are a hobbyist. The real world and most sales involved as user who just wanted to do cool things and work in an easy way. That is what made the Commodore o/s slappeed onto an atari project so hard to sell. The hardware was mostly fine.That is why the bulk of Amigas sold were the A500. Dont have to deal with the o/s much to play games and it was priced right. Nothing wrong with the tech aspect if you are a hobbyist and it suits you,just a harder sell. At the time of A500 most (not all) only wanted it for games and we sold many many for just that purpose. I personally like it as a games box.No slight meant at all! Games are good! AsI mentioned before,95% of software we sold for all platforms were games.

[atarian63]

Heh, Virtua Racing was the first game I bought for my Genesis. (and also the first game I emulated prior to getting a real one) I also got VR Delux for 32x for $.99 (and Kolibri for the same price), but I don't have a 32x yet. (I'm almost positive my uncle has a loose one floating around -and a SMS II- and I'm confident I can make my own mixing cable) No super punchout yet though.

 

Sorry for getting more off topic though.

 

Funny,that is the same stuff I am doing now, just bought a complet setup,Genesis,Sega CD and 32x. Plating T-mek and VR deluxe. VR is a nice version. I have the actual VR arcade and the 32x version is quite nice for a console. Get T-mek if you can. As far as I know 32x has the only console version.

I have the Genesis and 32x versions as well. Yeah, the 32x version is excellent for a console. Interestingly, though, the Saturn version of VR SUCKS!!! I can't remember now, but I think they screwed up the control. 32x version *is* the best console version. Genny version is also quite an accomplishment.

 

Ok, someone scold for off-topic. Wait, that's the other thread....

Yep, meet you over in the classic console section, there is an Xeye thread talking about VR right now.

[kool kitty89]

If you loved Gauntlet 1 on the ST then definitely seek out Gauntlet IV for the Genesis

 

Actually I don't have an ST, I'm just really interested in a lot fo this old electronics hardware (and games) in general, actually history in general as well (especially tech oriented -spent a while at a WWII aviation forum a couple years ago). Only Atari I've got is a VCS, losts of Nintendo stuf, my dad's TRS-80 Model II in storage, the Sega, an Xbox my cousins gave me, and a bunch of PC stuff. (lots of old hardware we've never gotten rid of, I've been tinking about building a win9x PC for gaming with games that don't work right/at all on modern OSs and some DOS games that don't work great in dosbox)

I really should explain more of this in my profile. Interesting to note that my dad was involved with projects for botht he Amiga and ST (I know he was involved with BASIC for both ST and Amiga, working at Metacomco I think), he was actually on UK TV at one point in the context of Atari Corp. (one of the tech guys at a computer in the background of some interveiw with Jack Tramiel I think)

 

I do have gauntlet on NES though, actually only picked that up a few months ago at good will. A lot more fun 2-player.

[+poobah]

Also your comment about Apple's presentation/style...I find their latest efforts an exercise in style over function....as koolkitty states the latest keyboards are a classic example of this...maybe they look cool but they are atrocious to use. In a world where Dell manages to make ultra low profile laptop keyboards for their XPS range that feel BETTER than most Desktop PC keyboards Apple has given us something that feels like an Oric 1 or Jupiter Ace from 1981!

 

I'd be the first to admit that everything Apple touches doesn't automatically become gold (so no fanboy membership card for me). I found the hockey puck mouse and the new aluminum keyboards atrocious, but most of the time they mange to get it right. The new MagicMouse is absolutely wonderful, I may have to trade in my MS Intellimouse

 

If I had some more free time, I'd whip up a little PS/2 to USB AVR to use my 1984 IBM type M keyboard... still the best keyboard ever.

[the maddestman]

if it has anything in common with the original o/s then it's still godawful. That was the main thing that was crappy about the amiga and also what made it hard to sell.

With all due respoect, I can't understand why it is that you think this. Sure it had some room for improvement in it's earliest versions, but by 1.3 it was actually fairly decent, and 2.0 was a MASSIVE leap, and it's only improved by leaps and bounds from there.

 

While I concede that TOS/GEM does have some good points, the main one being fast booting to a GUI, I am yet to be convinced that it's lack of flexability and features (compared to Workbench) makes up for it, but that is one of the reasons I'm here, because I enjoy the work that those at Atari did back in the day, and would like to know more about the ST line, along with TOS and GEM.

 

The way I see it, a computer operating system is just a tool to get a job done, and it's a case of using the correct tool for the job. So for some jobs, the Atari machines running TOS/GEM were the correct tools, for others, the Amigas running Kickstart/Workbench. Very much like a rake and a hammer, both great for a particular job, but not so great for the job the other tool is designed for.

 

Besides, one of the main selling points I've seen in this thread time and time again for the ST is price, now that price is no longer an issue, these machines should be compared on their own merits in my opinion.

 

Pleast note I don't consider the ST "crap", I'm willing and eager to learn more about it and it's advantages, I'm not a blind fanboy of the Amiga, just at this point in time I have yet to be convinced that the ST was a better machine.

 

Just like some here might be quick to tell me to actually use a particular application on an ST, for those who think the Amiga is "crap", I urge you to try out programs such as Personal Paint, Photogenics, Wordworth and Final Writer, just to name a few, on a more recent Amiga setup, such as an Amiga 1200 with some fast RAM and Workbench 3.x. After you've done that (please, for more then 5 minutes), THEN decide what you really think, rather then just writing off the whole line due to experiences you had many years ago on very early revisions of the OS.

 

If someone who thinks the Amiga system was so bad, then this will either confirm this in their minds, or, gasp, they might even see why some of us would rather use this system over a 'modern PC'.

 

And if anyone wants to suggest what I should try on an ST to show me it's advantages, I'm happy to give it a go

[FastRobPlus]

if it has anything in common with the original o/s then it's still godawful. That was the main thing that was crappy about the amiga and also what made it hard to sell.

With all due respoect, I can't understand why it is that you think this. Sure it had some room for improvement in it's earliest versions, but by 1.3 it was actually fairly decent, and 2.0 was a MASSIVE leap, and it's only improved by leaps and bounds from there.

 

While I concede that TOS/GEM does have some good points, the main one being fast booting to a GUI, I am yet to be convinced that it's lack of flexability and features (compared to Workbench) makes up for it, but that is one of the reasons I'm here, because I enjoy the work that those at Atari did back in the day, and would like to know more about the ST line, along with TOS and GEM.

 

The way I see it, a computer operating system is just a tool to get a job done, and it's a case of using the correct tool for the job. So for some jobs, the Atari machines running TOS/GEM were the correct tools, for others, the Amigas running Kickstart/Workbench. Very much like a rake and a hammer, both great for a particular job, but not so great for the job the other tool is designed for.

 

Besides, one of the main selling points I've seen in this thread time and time again for the ST is price, now that price is no longer an issue, these machines should be compared on their own merits in my opinion.

 

Pleast note I don't consider the ST "crap", I'm willing and eager to learn more about it and it's advantages, I'm not a blind fanboy of the Amiga, just at this point in time I have yet to be convinced that the ST was a better machine.

 

Just like some here might be quick to tell me to actually use a particular application on an ST, for those who think the Amiga is "crap", I urge you to try out programs such as Personal Paint, Photogenics, Wordworth and Final Writer, just to name a few, on a more recent Amiga setup, such as an Amiga 1200 with some fast RAM and Workbench 3.x. After you've done that (please, for more then 5 minutes), THEN decide what you really think, rather then just writing off the whole line due to experiences you had many years ago on very early revisions of the OS.

 

If someone who thinks the Amiga system was so bad, then this will either confirm this in their minds, or, gasp, they might even see why some of us would rather use this system over a 'modern PC'.

 

And if anyone wants to suggest what I should try on an ST to show me it's advantages, I'm happy to give it a go

 

Too funny. He actually said the Amiga's OS was crap? I could see he was posting into this thread but I blocked his post ages ago. Makes me wonder what other gems I've missed.

[kool kitty89]

I'd be the first to admit that everything Apple touches doesn't automatically become gold (so no fanboy membership card for me). I found the hockey puck mouse and the new aluminum keyboards atrocious, but most of the time they mange to get it right. The new MagicMouse is absolutely wonderful, I may have to trade in my MS Intellimouse

It looks interesting, but seems like it might have some of the same problems as the current standard apple mouse (4-buttons with mini trac ball), that's the one I had to work with and found it rather annoying, mainly due to the lack of tactile response: Sure it clicks, but it's very hard to tell which is being clicked as there are no separate buttons, only separate switches internally and the side button doesn't even click. Pushing th etrac ball doesn't feel like pushing a separate button and leaning right/left for right/left clicking is just awkward. The squeeze side button is the most useless as I naturally grip my mouse between thumb and ring+pinky fingers and am thus constantly pressing that button inadvertently (hence why I quickly disabled it) This mouse: http://blog.makezine.com/img413_607.jpg

 

I like my wireless logitech wireles mouse very much, very smooth and comfortable to use (excellent non-slip pads on the bottom), the side buttons can get a bit tricky (accefentally bumping them), but I eventually got accustomed to them (and you don't have to use them -I have them set up for fwd/back in the browser), the zoom buttons are handy as well. The ergonomics are the biggest reason though, strip away everyting but the 2 main buttons plus center roller and it's still great. (a bit like this one but not exactly: http://www.cnet.co.uk/i/c/blg/cat/peripherals/Logitech%20mouse.jpg )

 

If I had some more free time, I'd whip up a little PS/2 to USB AVR to use my 1984 IBM type M keyboard... still the best keyboard ever.

Yeah, I know a couple people using those old sproingy IMB keyboards with MACs (let alone PCs), I know some people prefer some of the older keyboards even more (like Atari XL or TRS-80, but adapting those would be no easy task -plus you'd need a separate keypad)