Atari ST vs. Amiga

[FastRobPlus]

This error comment seems to have ruffled some feathers. It wasn’t meant to enflame.

 

Try for a second to think back to any round of the console wars. You will find fanboys who back a company unequivocally, regardless of what the company chooses to produce. Someone earlier mentioned that it’s not confined to consoles. For example, the Ford vs. Chevy debate.

 

There is some merit to this kind of loyalty; If a company produces something you like, why not stick with them? In the absence of any other data about the next version product or the competition, this makes sense. I do remember that user groups were a big thing back in the 1980s. If you owned an 8-bit and used it, you would have built an incredible social network that supported the home computer you chose, and that social network (especially any user groups) would have “upgraded” and followed the company’s technology roadmap. Today you see this kind of support network in online communities.

 

Many users bought the ST because of price, Atari’s prior generation product quality, and the existing network they had built up and were already familiar with (their user group, their magazine and newsletter subscriptions, their SIG/BBSes, etc.) For those people, the ST may have been a good choice because they had an existing “Atari extended family” to tap into and because frankly, the ST was a decent home computer.

 

Where it goes sideways a bit is when you actually look at what you got from this situation. As mentioned by others, the ST was an Atari in name only. That Atari badge ensured the “fanboy” support of Atari die hards (just as the Mac ensured support from Apple fanboys, the Amiga from Commodore fanboys, etc.) , but this was really ironic because when they took their fanboy rhetoric out for a spin, you found that they touted things like “more games!”, “lower cost!” and other canards that sounded suspiciously like the things said by the Commodore 64 fanboys during the previous generation. They were arguing that the machine must be the best because it was like a 16-bit commodore 64 (games and rock bottom price!) The irony I mention is that for many, this wasn’t the reason they bought the Atari 8-bit. They bought the Atari 8-bit because of perceived quality differences, and because it was absolutely the most cutting edge home computer when introduced in late ‘79. So cutting edge that it could even still be called competitive 2-3 years later with little more than a 16k bump in RAM.

 

Meanwhile, Amiga users were not talking about rock bottom prices. They were talking about multimedia and multitasking and other things that actually sounded truly generational. The Amiga was the Atari 8-bit of its time; 2-3 years ahead of where anyone would have reasonably expected. Years later, Forbes has compared Amiga’s technology to Trilogy and Cell. Advanced almost beyond the point where people could qualify it compared to its contemporaries upon its release.

 

If you bought and were happy with the ST on its merits and because you had an established social network, then good enough. If you bought the Atari 8-bit because it was cutting edge at launch and later bought the ST because you remembered how cutting edge that Atari was when it first came out, you would have bought the ST in error.

 

And the sting of course is that you should have bought the Amiga. And to rub salt in the wound, the Amiga wore a Commodore badge, likely the one badge anyone active with an Atari user support community would have loathed above all else. I remember breaking my ST social network. I told them I would stick around, but it was clear almost immediately that the energy around the Amiga was orders of magnitude greater. For me and for many others, it turned out that even the rock bottom price canard was a mistake. The ST was more expensive in the long run as TCO was greater due to less flexible expandability, and the need to upgrade sooner.

[atarian63]

This error comment seems to have ruffled some feathers. It wasnt meant to enflame.

 

Try for a second to think back to any round of the console wars. You will find fanboys who back a company unequivocally, regardless of what the company chooses to produce. Someone earlier mentioned that its not confined to consoles. For example, the Ford vs. Chevy debate.

 

There is some merit to this kind of loyalty; If a company produces something you like, why not stick with them? In the absence of any other data about the next version product or the competition, this makes sense. I do remember that user groups were a big thing back in the 1980s. If you owned an 8-bit and used it, you would have built an incredible social network that supported the home computer you chose, and that social network (especially any user groups) would have upgraded and followed the companys technology roadmap. Today you see this kind of support network in online communities.

 

Many users bought the ST because of price, Ataris prior generation product quality, and the existing network they had built up and were already familiar with (their user group, their magazine and newsletter subscriptions, their SIG/BBSes, etc.) For those people, the ST may have been a good choice because they had an existing Atari extended family to tap into and because frankly, the ST was a decent home computer.

 

Where it goes sideways a bit is when you actually look at what you got from this situation. As mentioned by others, the ST was an Atari in name only. That Atari badge ensured the fanboy support of Atari die hards (just as the Mac ensured support from Apple fanboys, the Amiga from Commodore fanboys, etc.) , but this was really ironic because when they took their fanboy rhetoric out for a spin, you found that they touted things like more games!, lower cost! and other canards that sounded suspiciously like the things said by the Commodore 64 fanboys during the previous generation. They were arguing that the machine must be the best because it was like a 16-bit commodore 64 (games and rock bottom price!) The irony I mention is that for many, this wasnt the reason they bought the Atari 8-bit. They bought the Atari 8-bit because of perceived quality differences, and because it was absolutely the most cutting edge home computer when introduced in late 79. So cutting edge that it could even still be called competitive 2-3 years later with little more than a 16k bump in RAM.

 

Meanwhile, Amiga users were not talking about rock bottom prices. They were talking about multimedia and multitasking and other things that actually sounded truly generational. The Amiga was the Atari 8-bit of its time; 2-3 years ahead of where anyone would have reasonably expected. Years later, Forbes has compared Amigas technology to Trilogy and Cell. Advanced almost beyond the point where people could qualify it compared to its contemporaries upon its release.

 

If you bought and were happy with the ST on its merits and because you had an established social network, then good enough. If you bought the Atari 8-bit because it was cutting edge at launch and later bought the ST because you remembered how cutting edge that Atari was when it first came out, you would have bought the ST in error.

 

And the sting of course is that you should have bought the Amiga. And to rub salt in the wound, the Amiga wore a Commodore badge, likely the one badge anyone active with an Atari user support community would have loathed above all else. I remember breaking my ST social network. I told them I would stick around, but it was clear almost immediately that the energy around the Amiga was orders of magnitude greater. For me and for many others, it turned out that even the rock bottom price canard was a mistake. The ST was more expensive in the long run as TCO was greater due to less flexible expandability, and the need to upgrade sooner.

actually there was no sting. The ST was the correct choice and a very happy one for most. Amiga was never quite right, probably the commodore part. By the time it became a more powerful machine with th a3000 etc it was to late and most of us had moved on to pc's. Amiga just missed the boat.

Amiga never picked up steam until the A500, and shortly thereafter pc's really took off so that amiga window was short.

I have a very large collection of nearly everything but amiga just never fit or worked right,I have personally had several and each time I was disappointed and sold it. There are also no c64's or apple products in my collection either. Though I will say I do like a modern mac.

[JamesD]

actually there was no sting. The ST was the correct choice and a very happy one for most. Amiga was never quite right, brobably the commodore part. By the time it became a more powerful machine with th a3000 etc it was to late and most of us ha moved on to pc's. Amiga just missed the boat.

Amiga never picked up steam until the A500, and shortly thereafter pc's really took off so that amiga window was short.

I have a very large collection of nearly everything but amiga just never fit or worked right,I have personally had several and each time I was disappointed and sold it. There are also no c64's or apple products in my collection either. Though I will say I do like a modern mac.

I guess that explains the fanatical Amiga following that still exists today.

 

Dude, you decided the ST was superior from day 1 and clearly, nothing is ever going to change that.

Your talk about the AmigaOS sounds more like that of a salesman that is trying to sell the Atari instead of someone that actually used the Amiga. All I can say is your experience was clearly different than mine. Beyond that... not much else to say.

[atarian63]

actually there was no sting. The ST was the correct choice and a very happy one for most. Amiga was never quite right, brobably the commodore part. By the time it became a more powerful machine with th a3000 etc it was to late and most of us ha moved on to pc's. Amiga just missed the boat.

Amiga never picked up steam until the A500, and shortly thereafter pc's really took off so that amiga window was short.

I have a very large collection of nearly everything but amiga just never fit or worked right,I have personally had several and each time I was disappointed and sold it. There are also no c64's or apple products in my collection either. Though I will say I do like a modern mac.

I guess that explains the fanatical Amiga following that still exists today.

 

Dude, you decided the ST was superior from day 1 and clearly, nothing is ever going to change that.

Your talk about the AmigaOS sounds more like that of a salesman that is trying to sell the Atari instead of someone that actually used the Amiga. All I can say is your experience was clearly different than mine. Beyond that... not much else to say.

Not at all unusual, most old pc's have a fanatical following. You are on one of those sites now!

My view comes from a being user and a business owner dealing with thousands of people, there is no conflict there.

Sounds like yours was a bit unusual,glad you had good luck with that.

[+save2600]

I guess that explains the fanatical Amiga following that still exists today.

 

Dude, you decided the ST was superior from day 1 and clearly, nothing is ever going to change that.

Your talk about the AmigaOS sounds more like that of a salesman that is trying to sell the Atari instead of someone that actually used the Amiga. All I can say is your experience was clearly different than mine. Beyond that... not much else to say.

 

 

Very well put JamesD. There's no doubt Atarian is seriously biased towards the ST and that's fine, but not at the expense of constant regurgitating of obvious misinformation.

 

BTW: I recently acquired a 520ST w/ a near worthless 354 single sided disk drive and e-mailed him for some advice on how to proceed with this. Figured since he's "Mr. ST", he'd have a nice starter kit he could sell. Maybe still does and just hasn't gotten around to answering since yesterday, BUT.... damn, I gotta tell you... out of the box, this ST system is hardly resembles a computer at all. You can't do JACK with it as it sits. And I keep hearing people talk about the Amiga 1000 costing so much and being buggy. That's simply BS. At the end of 1986, my used 512kb A1000 (from a legitimate computer reseller with a store) w/ OS 1.1 and 1.2 cost me less than $400. The machine comes with a superior composite output circuit too, so hooking it to a standard TV or monitor at the time was no big deal. RGB was crisper, but I was on a MAJOR budget back then. Ahem, anyway... even the earliest AmigaOS was sooooo much more feature laden than what I'm seeing built into this TOS thing. Seriously, this is only the second time in my life I've ever buggered with an ST, but what am I missing here? Are there some GEM/TOS disks I'm missing? Have you seen the Preferences section of this machine? You can change maybe three aspects of the computer. Literally. I'm still laughing out loud about the 360kb DD.

 

I know why my pleas haven't been answered by anyone yet here... it's cause they DON'T want yet another user to learn that the ST is a shell (pun intended) of a computer comparatively. lol Okay, just kidding here guys - no need to flame. But honestly, what I've got sitting before me (even the 1224's screen is tiny) seems like a total joke of a computer system. I either need to upgrade the OS or it's just gonna sit all boxed up. Can I get a frickin' DS/DD disk drive for this thing under $30?!? I always did like reading the computer mags of the day... comparing the ST, Mac and Amiga. ST was always rated under the Amiga, but was still considered a "good value", until the late 80's when it was clear it was totally dead that is. Again, not sure where Atarian is getting his "facts" about Amiga not picking up steam until the 500. Totally untrue. Amiga was already full steam ahead. The 500 was released as an ST killer and it worked - immediately. Growing up in Chicagoland, I couldn't tell you there were ANY dealers of ST stuff and I was quite computer savvy back then. Only time I ever saw an ST in real life was at an Amiga/PC store. They used a 1040 (I think) as their POS/cash register! (point of sale). Not kidding. I think it had the "hi-res" b/w monitor too. Ironic, but cool I thought that they'd use an ST like that.

 

One thing I like about the ST so far, is how FAST it boots up. Then again, if you stripped AmigaOS down to what I'm seeing here, I'm sure we'd have an apples/apples comparison BTW: the ST ONLY boots fast *IF* there is a disk inside the drive. If you turn on the computer with no disk, the thing takes FOREVER to boot. What's up with that? And why is there a Disk A and Disk B icon for a single sided drive? Weird. So far, as an Amiga guy, my experience in dealing with an ST is much like stepping out of a Cadillac and crawling into a Cavalier. lol

 

BTW: none of this stuff came with manuals, but what would you say boxed examples that are in mint or near mint condition would be worth?

 

520ST

SF354

SC1224

 

...by my estimations, I think I'm sitting on about $30-$40 worth of stuff here (yeah, what a crock). Know what a similar Amiga 1000 setup goes for? Try $200-$300. So, this may neither be here nor there, but MOST people when asked what's "better", will look at it strictly from a monetary point of view. I'd still like to do *something* semi productive with an ST though. Would like a little more "hands on" before ditching completely or relegating to the classic computer museum. lol

Edited January 19, 2010 by save2600

[carmel_andrews]

400 USD brand new amiga 1000, you sure you don't mean 1400 usd, after all i seem to remember silica shop selling a1000's for 1500 gbp (and even that was if you traded in your old commodore computer)

 

what people still forget is that the company that bought atari from warners were run by commodore people using and developing commodore technologies, concepts, designs, philosophies etc etc

 

Perhaps if the people at warners atari had the same faith in the likes of Decuir/Miner etc etc as they did in their momumental f**k up's warners did (like telling miner that his idea about the future of A8 and vcs development was a no no) we would'nt be talking about ST vs amiga at all

 

At the end of the day, it comes down to this....tramiel was a cheapskate par excellence, commodore almost did a tramiel with amiga, lets face it, like tramiel commodore were only interested in the tech. and not the company...both machines were poorly postioned and marketed, both machines got very little 'serious' heavyweight apps support like the pc/mac did (you could count that level of real heavyweight non game products on one pair of hands) only ones i can recall are MS write, word perfect, Video toaster and calamus

 

biggest mistake that both companies made was positioning the st/amiga at the same market they were already pushing their 8bit systems at....remembering that software support doesn't come cheap and it's not at if software houses or publishers had/have a bottomless pit of money to invest in software support of all platforms

 

Basically the st/amiga like their 8bit brothers were games computers that could also run 'some' serious apps

[+save2600]

400 USD brand new amiga 1000, you sure you don't mean 1400 usd, after all i seem to remember silica shop selling a1000's for 1500 gbp (and even that was if you traded in your old

 

$400 USED with NO trade-in (my point being is that it was cheaper or on a par with the ST's at the time). It did not even come with a box. Just the system, keyboard and binder with the OS's in it. Only thing I might be hazy on is the year. I know for a fact though that it was either Dec. of '86 or Dec. of '87. Okay, so maybe it was '87, but I remember thinking the computer was "cheap" then, yet to expand it beyond 512kb was outrageously EXPENSIVE! About the same cost as the computer! lol So I did end up selling it in favor of a brand new A500 w/ 1MB for less than $700 delivered and it came w/ a 1084's monitor too. I purchased that via mail order... Montgomery Grant I believe.

 

And no, nobody is forgetting Amiga's roots. For me, that's not the issue at all. I'm talking dollar for dollar value here. For me, I never really considered the ST "competition" to the Amiga. Spec for spec, the Amiga provided more bang for the buck. Yes, it *was* expensive when it was first released and you were looking at a brand new computer purchase. But I was in that camp that had already gone through 2 A8's and a C64. Commodore's reputation as a computing and gaming platform is what sold me on the Amiga hands down. Atari's jumbled and mixed up mother goose way of handling retailers and rehashing/rebranding the same old obsolete shite did not sit well with me as a consumer. Contextually, doesn't matter who designed and invented the Amiga - the computer kicks ass either way (to me, I recognize it as an Amiga product, NOT a Commodore product). IMHO, if Atari had released it instead of Commodore, it may have never taken off as well as the platform did and might have been killed off sooner. We can all agree that the writing was on the wall for both Atari AND Commodore anyway. The fact that Tramiel jumped ship like that was the death knell. He represented obsolete business practices in an arena he had no longer had a "right" to be in. Times were changing - yet he did not. Typical and natural of us as we turn into old men

Edited January 19, 2010 by save2600

[atarian63]

I guess that explains the fanatical Amiga following that still exists today.

 

Dude, you decided the ST was superior from day 1 and clearly, nothing is ever going to change that.

Your talk about the AmigaOS sounds more like that of a salesman that is trying to sell the Atari instead of someone that actually used the Amiga. All I can say is your experience was clearly different than mine. Beyond that... not much else to say.

 

 

Very well put JamesD. There's no doubt Atarian is seriously biased towards the ST and that's fine, but not at the expense of constant regurgitating of obvious misinformation.

 

BTW: I recently acquired a 520ST w/ a near worthless 354 single sided disk drive and e-mailed him for some advice on how to proceed with this. Figured since he's "Mr. ST", he'd have a nice starter kit he could sell. Maybe still does and just hasn't gotten around to answering since yesterday, BUT.... damn, I gotta tell you... out of the box, this ST system is hardly resembles a computer at all. You can't do JACK with it as it sits. And I keep hearing people talk about the Amiga 1000 costing so much and being buggy. That's simply BS. At the end of 1986, my used 512kb A1000 (from a legitimate computer reseller with a store) w/ OS 1.1 and 1.2 cost me less than $400. The machine comes with a superior composite output circuit too, so hooking it to a standard TV or monitor at the time was no big deal. RGB was crisper, but I was on a MAJOR budget back then. Ahem, anyway... even the earliest AmigaOS was sooooo much more feature laden than what I'm seeing built into this TOS thing. Seriously, this is only the second time in my life I've ever buggered with an ST, but what am I missing here? Are there some GEM/TOS disks I'm missing? Have you seen the Preferences section of this machine? You can change maybe three aspects of the computer. Literally. I'm still laughing out loud about the 360kb DD.

 

I know why my pleas haven't been answered by anyone yet here... it's cause they DON'T want yet another user to learn that the ST is a shell (pun intended) of a computer comparatively. lol Okay, just kidding here guys - no need to flame. But honestly, what I've got sitting before me (even the 1224's screen is tiny) seems like a total joke of a computer system. I either need to upgrade the OS or it's just gonna sit all boxed up. Can I get a frickin' DS/DD disk drive for this thing under $30?!? I always did like reading the computer mags of the day... comparing the ST, Mac and Amiga. ST was always rated under the Amiga, but was still considered a "good value", until the late 80's when it was clear it was totally dead that is. Again, not sure where Atarian is getting his "facts" about Amiga not picking up steam until the 500. Totally untrue. Amiga was already full steam ahead. The 500 was released as an ST killer and it worked - immediately. Growing up in Chicagoland, I couldn't tell you there were ANY dealers of ST stuff and I was quite computer savvy back then. Only time I ever saw an ST in real life was at an Amiga/PC store. They used a 1040 (I think) as their POS/cash register! (point of sale). Not kidding. I think it had the "hi-res" b/w monitor too. Ironic, but cool I thought that they'd use an ST like that.

 

One thing I like about the ST so far, is how FAST it boots up. Then again, if you stripped AmigaOS down to what I'm seeing here, I'm sure we'd have an apples/apples comparison BTW: the ST ONLY boots fast *IF* there is a disk inside the drive. If you turn on the computer with no disk, the thing takes FOREVER to boot. What's up with that? And why is there a Disk A and Disk B icon for a single sided drive? Weird. So far, as an Amiga guy, my experience in dealing with an ST is much like stepping out of a Cadillac and crawling into a Cavalier. lol

 

BTW: none of this stuff came with manuals, but what would you say boxed examples that are in mint or near mint condition would be worth?

 

520ST

SF354

SC1224

 

...by my estimations, I think I'm sitting on about $30-$40 worth of stuff here (yeah, what a crock). Know what a similar Amiga 1000 setup goes for? Try $200-$300. So, this may neither be here nor there, but MOST people when asked what's "better", will look at it strictly from a monetary point of view. I'd still like to do *something* semi productive with an ST though. Would like a little more "hands on" before ditching completely or relegating to the classic computer museum. lol

Wow, that would be hard to be much more wrong. An A1000 on has some value as it is rare. Kinda like those xrated 2600 games, rare but suck. Does that make the game better as it is worth more? I think not.

Try doing some googling on ST ram upgrades for the early models,you can do them yourself easily. Also belly up to the bar and spend some cash and buy a DS drive on ebay.

St is so ready to use, lets see turn it on and there it is. A1000 well kickstart.. ugh.. then WB... then you have basically what you have with an ST desktop in comic form.

Not sure what you want to do productive but on amiga, it's really just a console in it's original intention and it does that well if you get around the O/s.

I see that you and james and okie usually are on the same wrong wavelength and that is fine. Never saw any email from you BTW.

As for Jack Tramiel.. Commodore was done without him. That was it's death knell. Jack even outlasted commodore and used Atari to do it.

[+save2600]

Wow, that would be hard to be much more wrong. An A1000 on has some value as it is rare. Kinda like those xrated 2600 games, rare but suck. Does that make the game better as it is worth more? I think not.

 

A user here just sold an A1000 w/ monitor for $250 - and I sold a similar setup a few years back (all boxed, as was his) for $300. I know the potential value of classic Amiga's, believe me. I've restored and resold dozens of various models. Last boxed mint Amiga 1000 I personally shelled cash out for cost me $150 + shipping, which was a good investment. People want the original A1000 model and that's the striking difference now especially between one and an ST setup. And yes, my Amiga's are used to this day for more than just games. lol

 

Doesn't look like any DS drives on ePay at the moment. Oh - I also HATE the fact they require their own power supply or do not know when you've inserted or removed a disk. Those space wasting icons A and B are always there. So why is there always a 'B' icon? I'm not getting answers to any of this. I'm asking you since you seem to know and admire the logic behind this stuff.

 

The ST GEM Desktop I see before me has got to be the slimmest OS I have ever seen, next to a Radio Shack portable that is. Absolutely no functionality. Even the 'About' section for TOS does not report which version. You've got to either be blind or have NEVER operated an AmigaOS in your life to think otherwise. That's why I'm thinking something is missing. You're telling me there are no other DOS disks needed for this? How in the heck do you even rename a folder you just created?

 

BTW: I'm really not meaning to lambast the ST here. I'm honestly giving it the old college "try" and actually, it's because of you that I decided to look into this machine one last time. Just seems really restricting comparatively at the moment. I'm aware and have always been aware of the spec differences between the two machines. Just would like to see something cool done on the ST that'll make me appreciate it more. The 12" screen coupled with the border also doesn't help matters. Didn't have anything like that on any AmigaOS. Games without frontiers is not just a song lol

Edited January 19, 2010 by save2600

[+DarkLord]

 

And I keep hearing people talk about the Amiga 1000 costing so much and being buggy. That's simply BS. At the end of 1986, my used 512kb A1000 (from a legitimate computer reseller with a store) w/ OS 1.1 and 1.2 cost me less than $400.

 

When I bought my 520ST, with floppy drive and color monitor, it was $799.00 - the Amiga from the same dealer was $1500.00 with -no- monitor - no comparison. Its not BS in any sense of the word. I was there, I saw it for myself, I don't have to ask nobody else or research it friend.

 

So what year was the Amiga released? September 1985 wasn't it? So how is that a dealer is selling a machine that cost $1500.00 sold for only $400 probably not even a year later?

 

I think I'd be on safe ground by saying that has to be an exception, and no where near the rule for the prices at that time.

 

Perhaps some honest Amiga users can look this up in their favorite magazines - what were A1000's going for in late 1986? Thanks.

 

Growing up in Chicagoland, I couldn't tell you there were ANY dealers of ST stuff and I was quite computer savvy back then. Only time I ever saw an ST in real life was at an Amiga/PC store. They used a 1040 (I think) as their POS/cash register! (point of sale). Not kidding. I think it had the "hi-res" b/w monitor too. Ironic, but cool I thought that they'd use an ST like that.

 

Thats not right. There were dealers there. User groups and more. Heck, the Atari Lynx was announced at a CES there, IIRC!

 

SCAT is still around:

 

http://www.scatarians.org/

 

CLAUG was there in the time-frame you refer to:

 

http://www.atarimagazines.com/v6n2/CLAUG.html

 

You must have just been on the wrong side of town...

[+save2600]

When I bought my 520ST, with floppy drive and color monitor, it was $799.00 - the Amiga from the same dealer was $1500.00 with -no- monitor - no comparison. Its not BS in any sense of the word. I was there, I saw it for myself, I don't have to ask nobody else or research it friend.

 

So what year was the Amiga released? September 1985 wasn't it? So how is that a dealer is selling a machine that cost $1500.00 sold for only $400 probably not even a year later?

 

Yep, mid to late '85, and the more I think about it, must have been Dec. '87 I finally landed one (as stated in another response). Sorry guys, that *is* a long time ago.

 

Growing up in Chicagoland, I couldn't tell you there were ANY dealers of ST stuff and I was quite computer savvy back then. Only time I ever saw an ST in real life was at an Amiga/PC store. They used a 1040 (I think) as their POS/cash register! (point of sale). Not kidding. I think it had the "hi-res" b/w monitor too. Ironic, but cool I thought that they'd use an ST like that.

 

 

Thats not right. There were dealers there. User groups and more. Heck, the Atari Lynx was announced at a CES there, IIRC!

 

I grew up in Libertyville, IL (north of Chicago) and I'll be dipped if there was an Atari computer dealer nearby. I can see maybe Chicago or someplace south of me, but in our area, where we had a large handful of computer dealers (Waukegan, Vernon Hills, North Chicago, Mundelein) - there were none that I was aware of. 16-bit Atari's simply did not exist to me back then. Only in printed form from Mags did I ever "see" one. Ironically, a buddy of my younger brother's... whom I just befriended on Facebook, told me that his family had an ST growing up. I asked him where he got it from and he couldn't remember.

 

BTW: Great links! So yeah, Chicago and Glen Elyn... when you're young - those were worlds away. As I got up in my teens and bought my first car at 16, I would travel to Mount Prospect and Arlington Heights where even MORE Amiga dealers were. Man, were those the days Spending your hard earned cash on boxed games you never read about. lol

Edited January 19, 2010 by save2600

[kool kitty89]

 

As for Jack Tramiel.. Commodore was done without him. That was it's death knell. Jack even outlasted commodore and used Atari to do it.

Umm, Jack stepped down in the late 80s right, Sam took over (wasn't it around 1988?), and it seems like Sam was nowhere near as capable as his father, with the way things were managed in the tail end of the 80s and in the early 90s, then the way the Lynx was managed and especially the way the Jaguar was handeled. Then he had his heart attack, Jack stepped back in and they liquidated the company. (making out quite well in that deal, probably in lage part due to the Sega litigation thay won)

 

 

 

400 USD brand new amiga 1000, you sure you don't mean 1400 usd, after all i seem to remember silica shop selling a1000's for 1500 gbp (and even that was if you traded in your old

 

$400 USED with NO trade-in (my point being is that it was cheaper or on a par with the ST's at the time). It did not even come with a box. Just the system, keyboard and binder with the OS's in it. Only thing I might be hazy on is the year. I know for a fact though that it was either Dec. of '86 or Dec. of '87. Okay, so maybe it was '87, but I remember thinking the computer was "cheap" then, yet to expand it beyond 512kb was outrageously EXPENSIVE! About the same cost as the computer! lol So I did end up selling it in favor of a brand new A500 w/ 1MB for less than $700 delivered and it came w/ a 1084's monitor too. I purchased that via mail order... Montgomery Grant I believe.

But wouldn't a used ST have been cheaper still?

Edited January 20, 2010 by kool kitty89

[+save2600]

But wouldn't a used ST have been cheaper still?

 

 

Ahhh yes. The theory of relativity... lol All things being equal - you get what you pay for, do you not?!? Pretty much words to live by, no? lol I've been living just fine by 'em and yes, I avoid Wal-Marts at ALL "costs"...

 

 

[atarian1]

I guess that explains the fanatical Amiga following that still exists today.

 

Dude, you decided the ST was superior from day 1 and clearly, nothing is ever going to change that.

Your talk about the AmigaOS sounds more like that of a salesman that is trying to sell the Atari instead of someone that actually used the Amiga. All I can say is your experience was clearly different than mine. Beyond that... not much else to say.

 

 

Very well put JamesD. There's no doubt Atarian is seriously biased towards the ST and that's fine, but not at the expense of constant regurgitating of obvious misinformation.

 

BTW: I recently acquired a 520ST w/ a near worthless 354 single sided disk drive and e-mailed him for some advice on how to proceed with this. Figured since he's "Mr. ST", he'd have a nice starter kit he could sell. Maybe still does and just hasn't gotten around to answering since yesterday, BUT.... damn, I gotta tell you... out of the box, this ST system is hardly resembles a computer at all. You can't do JACK with it as it sits. And I keep hearing people talk about the Amiga 1000 costing so much and being buggy. That's simply BS. At the end of 1986, my used 512kb A1000 (from a legitimate computer reseller with a store) w/ OS 1.1 and 1.2 cost me less than $400. The machine comes with a superior composite output circuit too, so hooking it to a standard TV or monitor at the time was no big deal. RGB was crisper, but I was on a MAJOR budget back then. Ahem, anyway... even the earliest AmigaOS was sooooo much more feature laden than what I'm seeing built into this TOS thing. Seriously, this is only the second time in my life I've ever buggered with an ST, but what am I missing here? Are there some GEM/TOS disks I'm missing? Have you seen the Preferences section of this machine? You can change maybe three aspects of the computer. Literally. I'm still laughing out loud about the 360kb DD.

 

I know why my pleas haven't been answered by anyone yet here... it's cause they DON'T want yet another user to learn that the ST is a shell (pun intended) of a computer comparatively. lol Okay, just kidding here guys - no need to flame. But honestly, what I've got sitting before me (even the 1224's screen is tiny) seems like a total joke of a computer system. I either need to upgrade the OS or it's just gonna sit all boxed up. Can I get a frickin' DS/DD disk drive for this thing under $30?!? I always did like reading the computer mags of the day... comparing the ST, Mac and Amiga. ST was always rated under the Amiga, but was still considered a "good value", until the late 80's when it was clear it was totally dead that is. Again, not sure where Atarian is getting his "facts" about Amiga not picking up steam until the 500. Totally untrue. Amiga was already full steam ahead. The 500 was released as an ST killer and it worked - immediately. Growing up in Chicagoland, I couldn't tell you there were ANY dealers of ST stuff and I was quite computer savvy back then. Only time I ever saw an ST in real life was at an Amiga/PC store. They used a 1040 (I think) as their POS/cash register! (point of sale). Not kidding. I think it had the "hi-res" b/w monitor too. Ironic, but cool I thought that they'd use an ST like that.

 

One thing I like about the ST so far, is how FAST it boots up. Then again, if you stripped AmigaOS down to what I'm seeing here, I'm sure we'd have an apples/apples comparison BTW: the ST ONLY boots fast *IF* there is a disk inside the drive. If you turn on the computer with no disk, the thing takes FOREVER to boot. What's up with that? And why is there a Disk A and Disk B icon for a single sided drive? Weird. So far, as an Amiga guy, my experience in dealing with an ST is much like stepping out of a Cadillac and crawling into a Cavalier. lol

 

BTW: none of this stuff came with manuals, but what would you say boxed examples that are in mint or near mint condition would be worth?

 

520ST

SF354

SC1224

 

...by my estimations, I think I'm sitting on about $30-$40 worth of stuff here (yeah, what a crock). Know what a similar Amiga 1000 setup goes for? Try $200-$300. So, this may neither be here nor there, but MOST people when asked what's "better", will look at it strictly from a monetary point of view. I'd still like to do *something* semi productive with an ST though. Would like a little more "hands on" before ditching completely or relegating to the classic computer museum. lol

 

You know why I don't help Amiga fanboys like you? it's because of your attitude. Why should I help you (Amiga fanboy) when everything you say is accompanied by a snide remark about the ST? It's like trying to help out a bully while still putting you down every time you help the idiot. How would you feel? I have seen your Amiga fanboy attitude all along this thread, so why should I waste my time trying to help you if you're just going to put down the ST and us users with your snide remarks every time we try to help?

 

You say you're trying to give the ST a chance by buying one. Bulls**t, you're nothing but a poser. I see your attitude and I know you're not even going to give the ST a chance even if I do help you since I can see your Amiga fanboyism is as thick as mud.

 

Next time you wonder why no one wants to help you in anything, try looking in the mirror for once, and THINK, for once about why people won't help you.

 

Now, I know most Amiga people I have met are not like the ones in this thread, because I can tell you, REAL Amiga enthusiasts are embarrassed to be associated with "fellow" Amiga enthusiasts on this thread. I would be too.

[kool kitty89]

But wouldn't a used ST have been cheaper still?

Ahhh yes. The theory of relativity... lol All things being equal - you get what you pay for, do you not?!? Pretty much words to live by, no? lol I've been living just fine by 'em and yes, I avoid Wal-Marts at ALL "costs"...

Hmm, wallmart is definitely good for some things though, picking up black and decker products and accessories, we got our Wii that way online (everyone else being chronically sold out), but not for general stuff. I find target a far more pleasant discont/department store store personally.

Then there's the who "evil" monopolistic tendencies driving away small buisnesses and such. (much moreso in small towns obviosuly)

Edited January 20, 2010 by kool kitty89

[Christos]

@save2600

 

You probably feel the same way as I did when I first used the amiga OS. I hated it but I think that is a matter of personal preference.

 

Let's see if I can answer some of your questions.

 

First of all let's analyze your system. It's a 512K RAM machine with an external single sided floppy drive. What I'd do is to get its RAM to 1MB and upgrade the floppy. There are guides on how to do that but tbh it's much easier and cheaper to just get a 1040STFM. But anyway that doesn't mean that the machine is useless in anyway. I don't really know about the SF354 but in theory if you found a floppy drive that can somehow be changed from DS1 to DS0 you could just put that in and it will work as a DD floppy. You'd have to open the floppy first to see if it has a standard connector though (such as the one found in PC's).

 

So the next question is what you want to do with the machine. What do you want to run?

 

I'll make an educated guess and think that you'll want to run games. In that case you'll be happy to know that the vast majority of games work with 512K. Unfortunately most of the games come on MSA or ST images so you'll need a way to put them into disks. There are proper ways to do that so let me know if you want to setup such a system.

 

Now if you want to have a quick run, there are quite a few games that will fit in a single sided disk and will work with a 512K machine.

 

Anything else you want just ask. But it would be helpful if you said what exactly you want to do.

[+save2600]

@save2600

Anything else you want just ask. But it would be helpful if you said what exactly you want to do.

 

 

Thanks Christos, yes... I'm familiar with ST enough to know 512kb-1mb is pretty much all I'd need for games and lite MIDI stuff (similar to Amiga), but the system I've got, with its disk drive is just not going to be doing much of anything I'm afraid - and honestly, as you said - not going to be worth the hassle of monkeying around with when 1040's are out there and usually pretty cheap. <sigh>

 

Christos, BTW: what's up with the 1in. border around the screen? I had a 1040 back in the late 90's and I seem to remember most of the games fit into that same border - much like a Vic-20. lol Guys, I'm not trying to be an ass (really, I'm not), just wondering why this exists? On the Amiga, many/most games and the OS itself knew how to deal with overscan. Especially important that the OS does as it involves valuable desktop real estate.

 

Sorry Atarian1 that you feel the way you do, but I was looking at this rollout ST system as I would the rollout Amiga 1000 back in the day and conversely right here and right now. This particular ST setup is crippled beyond belief comparatively. Its OS is frustratingly weak and the 360kb drive is somebody's idea of a bad joke. Sorry, but you usually get what you pay for in life, but spending upwards of $100 or more (today) on a DS/DD ST drive is not my idea of a good value. If people think this was a good deal back then - great, that's your prerogative. I just don't see the value here, especially today when so many others have suggested I get a different ST system for simple cost reasons.

 

Anyway, Christos - you've confirmed what I quickly discovered on my own... I've got to upgrade the ram and DD before I can go any further, which I will NOT be doing with this system. It's in such nice original shape that I think I'd rather just sell or trade it for a 1040, or sell outright and be done with the ST once again. I do not have a PC to make disks for the ST anyway (unless there's a Mac or Amiga equivalent out there I'm unaware of) and I'm not into emulation really at all.

 

Games and MIDI is what I wanted to do with the 520ST. Unless I start buying original disks or copies and replace that DD, this thing is little more than a paper weight. Which the A1000 NEVER was out of the box (especially after you bought the 1050 256kb ram expansion - lol) and that's my point. Say what you want about the A1000, but even with its PIA Kickstart load time (a few seconds) and 512kb of memory - the thing will run at least 90% of the games ever made for the platform.

 

-edit-

 

Oh... I just caught what you said about games and single sided DD's. Is there a software list available? Is there a software repository for ST stuff like there are for Amiga like Aminet.net? I've only quickly scanned Atari.org before, but that might be a good start. This looks pretty cool if you're into emulation too: http://aranym.sourceforge.net/

Edited January 20, 2010 by save2600

[Christos]

Atarimania has an extensive software list.

 

Like I said the more ram the merrier but this is also true for the amiga or any other system. The main upside is that with TOS in ROM you get more free ram to work.

 

Now if you want to try it, crossdos on the amiga should be able to use and format ST disks. I don't know about Macs.

 

About midi. You can go to Tim's atari midi world and download lots of midi apps. I am not a musician though...

[+remowilliams]

When I bought my 520ST, with floppy drive and color monitor, it was $799.00 - the Amiga from the same dealer was $1500.00 with -no- monitor - no comparison. Its not BS in any sense of the word. I was there, I saw it for myself, I don't have to ask nobody else or research it friend.

Same here. The Amiga wasn't even in the realm of a remote possibility even if I had a preference to go that way back then. My parents were broke, and I didn't have any trust fund money sitting around. It was a huge effort to scrape together the dough for a new ST (520STfm) system, but it was well worth it. I would have had to wait a long time, probably until the 386 PC era to break free of 8bit computing if it were not for the ST.

 

And that was the ST's innovation - power without the price. It wasn't just a marketing slogan.

[+save2600]

Same here. The Amiga wasn't even in the realm of a remote possibility even if I had a preference to go that way back then. My parents were broke, and I didn't have any trust fund money sitting around. It was a huge effort to scrape together the dough for a new ST (520STfm) system, but it was well worth it. I would have had to wait a long time, probably until the 386 PC era to break free of 8bit computing if it were not for the ST.

 

And that was the ST's innovation - power without the price. It wasn't just a marketing slogan.

 

 

We too grew up "poor", but I worked, saved and waited to purchase the things I really wanted. Did I have an ST or an Amiga in '85? Hell no, but I wasn't going to compromise as I knew what I really wanted thanks to many months of research and found that the Amiga machine was what I was really after. Big deal if I had to wait 2 years to get one either. This is a life lesson that so few people today are willing to compromise on - being the credit card consumers we are. lol

 

 

[+DarkLord]

Unfamiliarity, and an unwillingness to spend some time getting to know

said unfamiliar platform, is the apparent problem here.

 

It reminds me of the Windows users that spend 5 mins "trying out" Linux.

 

Honestly, I don't quite understand the attitude of acquiring a retro

machine like the ST or Amiga, and then approaching it like you had just

purchased it in 1985.

 

I'd be willing to bet good money that the Atarians here (or just about

anywhere) could set down with that basic 520 ST and do wonderful things

with it. I know I could. Games, apps, whatever.

 

In the same vein, the A1000 that I owned years ago, took me forever to

come to grips with. I felt that the OS was awkward, not sure about the

buggy part, but it did crash occasionally. Loading from floppy seemed

slower than my ST's too. At the time I had it, (about 1990 I think),

any add-ons were hard to find and very expensive. I really did like the

case and the keyboard well though. That, and the designers names on the

inside cover were very cool.

[+save2600]

I'd be willing to bet good money that the Atarians here (or just about

anywhere) could set down with that basic 520 ST and do wonderful things

with it. I know I could. Games, apps, whatever.

 

With the 360kb drive? Anyone want to swap for a nice DS/DD drive + some cash or whatever? The 314's fit that description, right? The drive I have is in excellent shape and comes with its box. No manual though.

 

BTW: I said I'm looking at this thing from both perspectives - then and now. That's what this entire thread was about and what Atarian63 keeps bringing up. How "buggy" the original AmigaOS is.

[+wood_jl]

This error comment seems to have ruffled some feathers. It wasn’t meant to enflame.

That's cool. But what it does do is try to impose your viewpoint on everybody else. If buying an ST was an error for you no matter, but what's silly about this is trying to declare it "an error" in a general sense. It was an error for you. For you. For you. That's fine. It wasn't an error for other people, and constructing a "loyalty" arguement to defend the "ST = error" position is pointless. It was an error for you and that is all. And there's nothing wrong with that. I don't understand your need to try to apply your choice to everyone else, or anyone else, for that matter.

 

Try for a second to think back to any round of the console wars. You will find fanboys who back a company unequivocally, regardless of what the company chooses to produce. Someone earlier mentioned that it’s not confined to consoles. For example, the Ford vs. Chevy debate.

You still do. This place is rife with fanboys. Surprisingly, not all of them are Atari fanboys, despite this being an Atari forum within an Atari site.

 

Where it goes sideways a bit is when you actually look at what you got from this situation. As mentioned by others, the ST was an Atari in name only. That Atari badge ensured the “fanboy” support of Atari die hards (just as the Mac ensured support from Apple fanboys, the Amiga from Commodore fanboys, etc.) , but this was really ironic because when they took their fanboy rhetoric out for a spin, you found that they touted things like “more games!”, “lower cost!” and other canards that sounded suspiciously like the things said by the Commodore 64 fanboys during the previous generation. They were arguing that the machine must be the best because it was like a 16-bit commodore 64 (games and rock bottom price!) The irony I mention is that for many, this wasn’t the reason they bought the Atari 8-bit. They bought the Atari 8-bit because of perceived quality differences, and because it was absolutely the most cutting edge home computer when introduced in late ‘79. So cutting edge that it could even still be called competitive 2-3 years later with little more than a 16k bump in RAM.

Many "Atari fanboys" bought the 400/800 simply because it was an Atari, and they were fans of the 2600. The Commodore fanboys would seriously take issue with the claim that it was still competitive 2-3 years later. Because there was no Commodore 64 in the early Atari-8 years, it was a value-priced unit because the Apple II was likely the other contender.

 

Meanwhile, Amiga users were not talking about rock bottom prices. They were talking about multimedia and multitasking and other things that actually sounded truly generational. The Amiga was the Atari 8-bit of its time; 2-3 years ahead of where anyone would have reasonably expected. Years later, Forbes has compared Amiga’s technology to Trilogy and Cell. Advanced almost beyond the point where people could qualify it compared to its contemporaries upon its release.

Amiga users couldn't talk about rock bottom prices, because the Amiga was not rock-bottom-priced. Once again, as previously, not everyone agrees that the Amiga was the Atari 8-bit of its time. Once again, not my arguement, but you didn't respond to my quote of another user here who vehemently disagrees that the Atari 800 was a "baby Amiga." Please take the opportunity, at this time, to do so. Here is the quote, again:

and despite the A8 having one of THREE designers in common with the Amiga (ie not the one that did the Blitter or 4 channel DAC sound or even the CPU/Chipset multitasking alone...just the weak sprites and half the copper instructions) this romantic notion that the A8 is a baby Amiga is pure bullcrap, what made the Amiga games better than Genesis/SNES/TG16 sometimes like Lotus Turbo 2 was the 4 channel DACs flexibility and the blitter+68k combination....none of which is comparable on the A8 (nothing like a blitter and an average CPU for the time compared to the TI99/4A) sorry. Even a CPC game like Sorcery would be impossible to make as colourful or at the same resolution on the A8...so....just a supercharged VCS with all the same kind of restrictions (which incidentally is the only machine Jay designed alone apart from the A8 unlike the Amiga) or at best a Lynx from a system bus point of view (but without the Lynx awesome chipset which the other 2/3 Amiga designers were responsible for btw).

 

If you bought and were happy with the ST on its merits and because you had an established social network, then good enough. If you bought the Atari 8-bit because it was cutting edge at launch and later bought the ST because you remembered how cutting edge that Atari was when it first came out, you would have bought the ST in error.

Here you go again. If you bought the ST, got good service out of it, and enjoyed it, there is no error. Period. What's to debate? What is this need to construct arguements about "cutting edge" or loyalty? Why are we arguing about something that is so matter of fact? Once again, in case this is unclear: If you bought the ST, got good service out of it, and enjoyed it, there is no error.

 

And the sting of course is that you should have bought the Amiga.

For YOU for YOU for YOU for YOU for YOU. And you did. That's perfect. Nothing wrong with that, but once again: FOR YOU.

Edited January 20, 2010 by wood_jl

[+wood_jl]

BTW: I recently acquired a 520ST w/ a near worthless 354 single sided disk drive and e-mailed him for some advice on how to proceed with this. Figured since he's "Mr. ST", he'd have a nice starter kit he could sell. Maybe still does and just hasn't gotten around to answering since yesterday, BUT.... damn, I gotta tell you... out of the box, this ST system is hardly resembles a computer at all. You can't do JACK with it as it sits. And I keep hearing people talk about the Amiga 1000 costing so much and being buggy. That's simply BS. At the end of 1986, my used 512kb A1000 (from a legitimate computer reseller with a store) w/ OS 1.1 and 1.2 cost me less than $400. The machine comes with a superior composite output circuit too, so hooking it to a standard TV or monitor at the time was no big deal. RGB was crisper, but I was on a MAJOR budget back then. Ahem, anyway... even the earliest AmigaOS was sooooo much more feature laden than what I'm seeing built into this TOS thing. Seriously, this is only the second time in my life I've ever buggered with an ST, but what am I missing here? Are there some GEM/TOS disks I'm missing? Have you seen the Preferences section of this machine? You can change maybe three aspects of the computer. Literally. I'm still laughing out loud about the 360kb DD.

 

The 360k drive is laughably pathetic. This was a serious case of Tramiel "cheaping out" and shortchanging the ST franchise from the beginning. In the 8-bit generation, a machine had 48K or 64K and the lowest-capacity drive (Atari 810) stored 88K. As pathetic as that seems, at least one floppy had more than capacity to load RAM completely. To release a 512K machine with 360K drive....my God, why??? They switched to 720K drives after a while, but the damage had been done as the "lowest common denominator" had been established - software would have to be released on 360k discs forevermore (well, for a long time) in order to accommodate the masses.

 

Likewise, shortly after (STm, STfm) machines had composite output. Unlike the 360k floppy, this didn't have ramifications down the road. Seriously, though, how usable is composite on these 640 x XXX machines? I've never seen it look very good; to me, it was pathetic compared to the RGB so it wasn't very usable.

 

Sounds like you got a hell of a deal on the Amiga! That was a one-time deal, however. Most people had to buy new, and everybody knows the ST was the cheaper machine. That was the best point of it. A few years ago, I was looking for an LS1-powered Camaro. I saw an ad in a nearby town. It was $3000 below low book (low book=trade-in value, by the way). I called, it was a convertible - which it didn't even say it was in the ad, and which ads probably $3000 to the value. I went to look at it, and it was low miles, mint condition, and leather. I still have it. I can't conclude that well-equipped convertible Camaros are less than Honda Civics, despite my experience. If I could buy another right now, I would....and promptly resell it for profit.

 

One thing I like about the ST so far, is how FAST it boots up. Then again, if you stripped AmigaOS down to what I'm seeing here, I'm sure we'd have an apples/apples comparison BTW: the ST ONLY boots fast *IF* there is a disk inside the drive. If you turn on the computer with no disk, the thing takes FOREVER to boot. What's up with that? And why is there a Disk A and Disk B icon for a single sided drive? Weird. So far, as an Amiga guy, my experience in dealing with an ST is much like stepping out of a Cadillac and crawling into a Cavalier. lol

Fast boot-up was a big plus. Obviously there's a flaw in that it assumes you're going to have a floppy in at boot. In a way it makes sense, as if you "saved desktop settings" they would obviously have to be loaded from a floppy, and I think that's what it's trying to do. They should have made it time out sooner, so just boot with a floppy.

 

Even if you use a double-sided drive, there are "Disk A" and "Disk B" icons as both sides of the drive are seen as a contiguous area - so it's not related to the "sidedness" of the drive. The 2 icons are handy when copying files from one floppy to another - when you have only one floppy. From the opened "Disk A" window, drag the selected files to the "Disk B" icon and the system will begin copying, then ask you to "insert disk B into drive A." So it's used for copying when there is only one floppy, and obviously represents the second floppy if present.

 

No doubt that system is more "bare bones" than the Amiga; and Amiga it is not. For the price, it was good. For people who play games, do word processing, and BBS calling - which is what most users did back in the day - the "bare bones" did those things well, for the price. Many people had interests in multitasking and multimedia, and I'd agree for them, the Amiga (or Mac II) was more suitable....just take out the wallet and the sky's the limit. If you didn't need those things and were on a budget, the ST worked fairly well.

 

BTW: none of this stuff came with manuals, but what would you say boxed examples that are in mint or near mint condition would be worth?

 

520ST

SF354

SC1224

 

...by my estimations, I think I'm sitting on about $30-$40 worth of stuff here (yeah, what a crock). Know what a similar Amiga 1000 setup goes for? Try $200-$300. So, this may neither be here nor there, but MOST people when asked what's "better", will look at it strictly from a monetary point of view. I'd still like to do *something* semi productive with an ST though. Would like a little more "hands on" before ditching completely or relegating to the classic computer museum. lol

 

Do I detect your willingness to sell all that stuff for $30? Hmmmm....I haven't had ST in 20 years. For that price, I may be interested. Are you serious? A similar setup for 10x that amount? I guess the ST still has the low-price benefit.

[+wood_jl]

A user here just sold an A1000 w/ monitor for $250 - and I sold a similar setup a few years back (all boxed, as was his) for $300. I know the potential value of classic Amiga's, believe me. I've restored and resold dozens of various models. Last boxed mint Amiga 1000 I personally shelled cash out for cost me $150 + shipping, which was a good investment. People want the original A1000 model and that's the striking difference now especially between one and an ST setup. And yes, my Amiga's are used to this day for more than just games. lol

So you use an Amiga for surfing the web, then? What OS and browser are you using? What other applications do you use the Amiga for?

 

Doesn't look like any DS drives on ePay at the moment. Oh - I also HATE the fact they require their own power supply or do not know when you've inserted or removed a disk. Those space wasting icons A and B are always there. So why is there always a 'B' icon? I'm not getting answers to any of this. I'm asking you since you seem to know and admire the logic behind this stuff.

 

Well, they have to get power from somewhere, and even though they have a bulky power supply, they don't tax the computer's as a result. The Amiga floppy drive drawing power from the computer did little to ameliorate Amiga power-supply issues. As well, the ST doesn't have those issues. I should think the ST and it's power supply and the floppy with its power supply, while indeed bulky, are wholeheartedly more elegant and less offensive than the power supply solution of your Amiga 500.

 

As far as the system knowing when you've changed a floppy - it's a matter of personal preference. I think you hit esc (or something) and it would re-scan the floppy. Some people liked the original Mac not letting you even eject a floppy manually. I prefer manual control. I respect that others are different.

 

The ST GEM Desktop I see before me has got to be the slimmest OS I have ever seen, next to a Radio Shack portable that is. Absolutely no functionality. Even the 'About' section for TOS does not report which version. You've got to either be blind or have NEVER operated an AmigaOS in your life to think otherwise. That's why I'm thinking something is missing. You're telling me there are no other DOS disks needed for this? How in the heck do you even rename a folder you just created?

I don't remember how to rename folders. If there's not a way, then it's worse than I remember. However, how can it have "absolutely no functionality?" You mean you can't launch programs or copy files? It certainly isn't the most "complete" OS but it got the job done in 1985. If you're a "minimalist" then it was ideal. If you are a feature-seeker, the Amiga OS certainly had more of that!

 

BTW: I'm really not meaning to lambast the ST here. I'm honestly giving it the old college "try" and actually, it's because of you that I decided to look into this machine one last time. Just seems really restricting comparatively at the moment. I'm aware and have always been aware of the spec differences between the two machines. Just would like to see something cool done on the ST that'll make me appreciate it more. The 12" screen coupled with the border also doesn't help matters. Didn't have anything like that on any AmigaOS. Games without frontiers is not just a song lol

I really don't think the ST is for you; it's definitely not for everyone, just like anything else. You should sell it to someone who will appreciate it. (for the aforementioned $30 btw)

Edited January 20, 2010 by wood_jl