Could Sega Save The Saturn?

[Lostdragon]

Try these.. 

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

oh nice thanks for posting those!
 

[Lostdragon]

Totally random selection and apologies for that, but my iPad has finally bitten the dust this morning and taken everything (1000's of files) with it ?

 

Sooo... 

 

 

 

[IntelliMission]

More funny things I found in the scans:

 

- The guy talking about the 3DO in 1994 says he doesn't think the new consoles will be able to handle 2D and 3D combinations like Road Rash as well as the 3DO.

 

- The guy from Millennium Software takes for granted that when the N64 is out, Sony is doomed. He also says that in Windows 95 games will be more about intellectual stimulation rather than reflexes.

 

- The weird racing game Millennium Software was developing for the Playstation, "Brains in Planes", was cancelled and there is not even a single video or screenshot of it.

 

- The guy from Milllennium also mentions Medievil as coming soon... for the Saturn.

 

- But the most unexpected thing was another game they released, Creatures (1996, PC). It's some kind of Little Computer People in Steroids:

 

 

This was a very creative era and dismissing it because 3D games of the time had pixellated walls is not fair.

[turboxray]

2 hours ago, IntelliMission said:

This was a very creative era and dismissing it because 3D games of the time had pixellated walls is not fair.

I take issue with this. It's not just pixelation. 

 

 I played all systems from that generation. PS1, Saturn, N64, and definitely PC (with 3DFX cards and even before from 1990). This isn't just about some pixelation. I didn't play Tomb Raider on consoles, but on PC with a voodoo card. It's not pixelated, or have affine texture warping, or twitching, etc - and it's still rough in design/gameplay. Games in that era are the equivalent of VCS to like ColecoVision. I got my enjoyment out of it, but it's too rough on every aspect to go back to - except 2D obviously. There are a few 3D excepts too, sure. But low screen res, low poly, super low texture res, fog, extremely limited draw distance, twitching polygons, unrefined controls, etc. It's not one thing - it's all of it together. "Experimental" is definitely the right word for it. It's just not appealing to me anymore (after having gone through it). GC/PS2 generation was sooo much better. 100x better. Graphics, design, controls, etc. It's my favorite 3D retro generation. I've been gaming from the 80's, all the way up to the newest consoles and PC of today. I think it's totally fair to have the opinion that it's just too rough, just as much as it's fair to appreciate the beginnings of something. If you're into gaming, you don't have to like everything equally and holistically. And just because someone isn't particularly into a retro generation, doesn't mean they're dismissing it. I appreciate pre-NES/SMS stuff, loving seeing how games developed and experimented, but I'm definitely not into playing any of it - it's too rough for me to enjoy. Is that dismissing it?

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by turboxray

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

early 3D racing games still hold up well.  at least to me.  When i play early 3d games I just pretend i'm on drugs or something and it's fine.

 

edit: agree with you about pre nes and even NES stuff.  I grew up with NES and hand me down ataris.. I can't go back and play those.  I don't even feel any nostalgia for them.  Oddly I feel nostalgia for the saturn even though i didnt get it new and only got my first one i think in 2006 or 2007 then got rid of it.  picked one up again last summer and can actually FEEL the nostalgia of having one from the mid 00's.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by NeonSpaceBeagle

[CatPix]

7 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

It was the start of a really strange era, you had the games press seemingly judging a game first and foremost on how many light sourced, texture mapped polygons per second the engine could throw around, teams like:Shinny, D. I. D, Argonaut, i.d were engaged in a war of words over who's cutting edge PC 3D engine was the most advanced and why.. 

Yep. I said that a few time here and many times people said I was inventing it or that it was a minor phenomenon, but French site JeuxVideo.com have published tests from games going back to the mid 90's, and for PS1 games, games that feature 2D are systemically dismissed as being "out fashioned".

Some example that pop to mind are (2D) Arcade compilations which is treated as "Only hardcore fans will find pleasure in those pixelated graphics; of if you want a 5 minute distraction at best".

Or the test for Alundra (which is often cited with having stunning 2D sprites on PS1) which received a measly 12/20 for graphisms with the author saying "It was a strange choice to go for 2D sprites instead of 3D models that would give the game a much better look".

[Lostdragon]

3 hours ago, IntelliMission said:

More funny things I found in the scans:

 

- The guy talking about the 3DO in 1994 says he doesn't think the new consoles will be able to handle 2D and 3D combinations like Road Rash as well as the 3DO.

 

- The guy from Millennium Software takes for granted that when the N64 is out, Sony is doomed. He also says that in Windows 95 games will be more about intellectual stimulation rather than reflexes.

 

- The weird racing game Millennium Software was developing for the Playstation, "Brains in Planes", was cancelled and there is not even a single video or screenshot of it.

 

- The guy from Milllennium also mentions Medievil as coming soon... for the Saturn.

 

- But the most unexpected thing was another game they released, Creatures (1996, PC). It's some kind of Little Computer People in Steroids:

 

 

This was a very creative era and dismissing it because 3D games of the time had pixellated walls is not fair.

R. J Mical has something of a reputation for telling a good story, so take things he says with that in mind ?

 

But I do believe there are 3DO ports to Saturn and Playstation that fall behind the performance of the 3DO originals in key areas. 

 

I chatted briefly with the guy tasked with converting Return Fire to the Jaguar CD and he said it fell short of the 3DO version, but he really, really hated the Jaguar hardware, so  that should be accounted for. 

 

Millennium:big Medievil fan myself, recently picked up the PS4 remake, but never took to C-12 on Playstation. 

 

It does appear from the interview Medievil started life as a Sega Saturn project, switched to Playstation. 

[IntelliMission]

What I love about that era is that yeah, there were terrible games like Spawn, Superman 64 or Rascal, but there were also:

 

- Great 2D games like Abe's Oddysee, Alundra, GTA2, many fighting games, half of the Saturn catalogue.

 

- Great 3D games that started huge sagas like Tomb Raider, Silent Hill, Panzer Dragoon, Metal Gear Solid

 

- First 3D installments from Mario and Zelda: love them or hate them, but the magic is there

 

- Driving games had more personality. See Driver, Destruction Derby 2, Sega Rally, Wipeout 2097/XL, or the first 4 The Need for Speed

 

- Great musical games for PS1 (Music 2000, Bust a Groove, Parappa...) and games in unique/new genres

 

- Great exclusive games for the PC (Jedi Knight, Blood...)

 

- Awesome multiplatform FPS that are far from being "experimental" and many people still play today: Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, Powerslave/Exhumed...

 

- Super cool platform games like Klonoa, Tombi, Heart of Darkness, Crash Bandicoot 1-3, Spyro 1-3, all the N64 ones...

 

In my opinion, the PS2 generation, while having better GTAs, Katamari and Fumito Ueda's games, was not as fun as the PS1 era. There were less terrible games, but there were less epic games too. In this generation, games started turning into the shit they are today.

Edited November 4, 2021 by IntelliMission

[Lostdragon]

29 minutes ago, CatPix said:

Yep. I said that a few time here and many times people said I was inventing it or that it was a minor phenomenon, but French site JeuxVideo.com have published tests from games going back to the mid 90's, and for PS1 games, games that feature 2D are systemically dismissed as being "out fashioned".

Some example that pop to mind are (2D) Arcade compilations which is treated as "Only hardcore fans will find pleasure in those pixelated graphics; of if you want a 5 minute distraction at best".

Or the test for Alundra (which is often cited with having stunning 2D sprites on PS1) which received a measly 12/20 for graphisms with the author saying "It was a strange choice to go for 2D sprites instead of 3D models that would give the game a much better look".

Used to really get on my goat when UK magazines tore into  Retro compilations, sneering these weren't why you bought a 32-bit RISC super console and they had no place on there.. You would play for 5 mins, get bored and then never play again. 

 

I had no PC..so no MAME

 

For years i had to make do with compromised home conversions, sorry games journalists, but these were exactly the games i returned to, once I grew bored with the shallow 3D games being pumped out en mass. 

 

The likes of: Xcom, which benifited from the Playstation hardware for improved smoke effects, much quicker enemy turns and CD music were  another godsend, too slow on the Amiga for me to enjoy, but I literally couldn't put it down on Playstation. 

[turboxray]

5 hours ago, IntelliMission said:

In my opinion, the PS2 generation, while having better GTAs, Katamari and Fumito Ueda's games, was not as fun as the PS1 era. There were less terrible games, but there were less epic games too. In this generation, games started turning into the shit they are today.

Sounds like you got stuck in the past too early on. That's a shame. You missed a out on some good games.

 

Sometimes I really do feel like I'm in the minority in these retro forums; it's a lot of retro love and "modern" hate (for whatever that means). I guess I'm not quite ready to be "get off my grass!" retro gamer. I still enjoy both.

Edited November 4, 2021 by turboxray

[Zoyous]

2 hours ago, turboxray said:

I guess I'm not quite ready to be "get off my grass!" retro gamer.

 

[turboxray]

3 hours ago, Zoyous said:

 

[TheGameCollector]

Sonic Xtreme could have possibly helped at least a little if they had taken their time with it rather than cancelling it. Sonic was pretty much Sega's console seller but Saturn ended up just getting ports of the Genesis games and that racing game. Sonic 3D Blast looked better on Saturn but added load times and wasn't a big enough visual upgrade to make Sonic fans go "I need this version, not the Genesis one!" Might as well have just kept their Genesis longer and got that version. I was just a kid at the time and my grandma was against buying a new system for so much money when they still made games for the old one. Once the old one stopped getting new games, then she'd let me keep it and help me get the new one.

[Lostdragon]

2 hours ago, TheGameCollector said:

Sonic Xtreme could have possibly helped at least a little if they had taken their time with it rather than cancelling it. Sonic was pretty much Sega's console seller but Saturn ended up just getting ports of the Genesis games and that racing game. Sonic 3D Blast looked better on Saturn but added load times and wasn't a big enough visual upgrade to make Sonic fans go "I need this version, not the Genesis one!" Might as well have just kept their Genesis longer and got that version. I was just a kid at the time and my grandma was against buying a new system for so much money when they still made games for the old one. Once the old one stopped getting new games, then she'd let me keep it and help me get the new one.

Sonic Xtreme was pretty much the poster child of everything blighting Sega at that time. 

 

Originally planned for the Genesis, then moved to 32X, before finally landing on Saturn, but even then not staying as a console exclusive, it was due for the PC as well. 

 

Seperate teams working on different parts of the game, internal staff conflicts, corporate politics/clashes. 

 

Just little to no cohesion to the project or within the company itself. 

 

Bringing an enhanced version of Sonic 3D to the Saturn, did them no favours in my eyes, it just smacked of desperation and when Sonic R landed, the focus seemed more on it proving the critics wrong about the Statun's 3D abilities than being a true Sonic title. 

[NeonSpaceBeagle]

15 hours ago, turboxray said:

Sounds like you got stuck in the past too early on. That's a shame. You missed a out on some good games.

 

Sometimes I really do feel like I'm in the minority in these retro forums; it's a lot of retro love and "modern" hate (for whatever that means). I guess I'm not quite ready to be "get off my grass!" retro gamer. I still enjoy both.

same here, absolutely.  my ten year old self would be in awe over what we have today.  yeah there's some irritating crap, but there's a lot of good too.  

[enoofu]

Saturn did well in both 3D and 2D computing, PS1 and N64 also had certain issues and weren't fully traditional. Sega main issue was in Supporting their hardware, as developers need both training on any platform including 3rd parties development teams and require decent software and hardware tools for fast developments. Also the issue of not supporting many RPGs and other non arcade genres also hindered the life of this system.

[Zap1982]

On 11/5/2021 at 9:31 AM, Lostdragon said:

Sonic Xtreme was pretty much the poster child of everything blighting Sega at that time. 

 

Originally planned for the Genesis, then moved to 32X, before finally landing on Saturn, but even then not staying as a console exclusive, it was due for the PC as well. 

 

Seperate teams working on different parts of the game, internal staff conflicts, corporate politics/clashes. 

 

Just little to no cohesion to the project or within the company itself. 

 

Bringing an enhanced version of Sonic 3D to the Saturn, did them no favours in my eyes, it just smacked of desperation and when Sonic R landed, the focus seemed more on it proving the critics wrong about the Statun's 3D abilities than being a true Sonic title. 

Couple of months late but anyone played Sonic SXU on PC? 100% faithful self booting rebuild in Unity of the "PC Version" 4 Worlds Demo.

 

And just on that planned PC game, whilst the development issues of Sonic xtreme have been well covered, the one that makes me really question the competence of the management is why... why oh why was Ofer Alon allowed to develop a game without the target hardware in mind? Why did that go on for so long? Many slate Sega Japan over the cancellation but end of the day they came over to look at a Saturn game, not a PC game. Nobody ever asked for this to even be a thing. It's zero surprise that they demanded development move to Christina Coffins boss engine - ya know.. the one working on the Saturn.

 

Typical Paraphrase:

"Chris Senn and Ofer Alin where astounded their work was binned"

 

Why?

It's the equivalent of going into a restaurant and ordering a steak and being given a burger. When you ask for the burger the staff look at you and try to persuade you to have the burger because its nice and get all weirded out when you tell them you wanted steak!!

[maxxoccupancy]

Yes, but you need several different groups to make a console or platform successful:

1. Sega enthusiasts who were pissed off at their $700 investment in the 32X, Genesis, and Sega CD only to find that they had just been shafted by SoJ.  Those buyers needed to see a slew of new games brought out for the 32X or a program where they get 100 Sega Bux by showing proof of purchase of their 32X.  These are the millions who made SEGA's consoles and games successful, and they needed to be treated like VIPs.

 

2. Retailers like KB, Walmart, etc, who were screwed by the Saturn's early launch and no systems.  Kalinske might have been able to salvage the Saturn launch by letting them out as a $500 unadvertised pre-launch for those just dying for the box itself.  There was no way that SEGA could have enough SH-2's for the 32X and Saturn at the same time.

 

3. Developers.  Better game libraries, software development tools, and discounts on the normal $13 licensing fees for developers that had created games for either the Sega CD or 32X.

 

4. Exclusives.  By the late 2000s, everyone seemed to understand that high demand exclusive titles were what made or broke consoles and platforms.  The Atari Jaguar only had AVP and fizzled out when they couldn't bring out a sequel.  XBox had Halo, and PlayStation had almost everything else.

 

5. Frugal shoppers.  SEGA needed to continue support for each system for 7-10 years.  So those who bought the Genesis should see new titles as late as 1996.  The Sega CD needed to see new titles as late as 1999.  Those who need the maximum bang for the buck need to know that SEGA will have their back.  Announce continued support for the Saturn (accessories and games) until 2004/5.  SEGA was one of the biggest and best game developers in those days, and the company could've kept itself afloat by demaking its top ten titles for all of its existing consoles.

 

6. Sega games. Sonic, sports, jrpgs, Sega franchises like Golden Axe, etc, never saw the Saturn.  People buy consoles because they have to to get the games that they want.

 

7. Dreamcast offered a little known deal where one could get a free DC and keyboard just for signing up for a 2-year contract for SegaNet.  For $250 total, you got a pack in game, dial up ISP, web browser, email client, and 128-bit Dreamcast.  That was one heckuva deal in 1999.  The same deal could've moved millions of Saturns that would otherwise sit on store shelves.

 

8. New game developers: Create a program for small 2-3 person companies to allow them to bring their assets (art, music, story) to existing game templates similar to Unity3D and Unreal Engine.  At a minimum, this would keep new titles coming out for older hardware for much longer.

 

9. Saturn 3D graphics workstation: The Saturn and Dreamcast were powerful enough to fill in the gap between PCs and those $10,000 Silicon Graphics workstations.  The Amiga community, for example, bought 150-200,000 new Amigas every year when new hardware came out.  Providing continued support for Amiga and fledgeling Linux markets could've propped up sales with a simple workstation kit.  The 200MHz, 64-bit SH-4 was a true powerhouse back in its day and ran circles around the 1998 Pentium still in PCs back then.  The SH4 continued to lead its market into the early Aughties in embedded, media, and floating point.  The Saturn-Dreamcast (with hard drive and keyboard added) could've supported a low end workstation market to keep SEGA profitable for years afterward.

[+jgkspsx]

I think it’s a little late at this point, guys.