Faicuai Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Ok, folks, here it is: Got this Bit3 card, installed it on slot-3 of my 800/Incognito, and... it does not work. It does respond to all commands, however, on a nice, plain-vanilla 800 that I have lying around here, even when removing RAM card from Slot #2 (middle). The reason it does not work on the 800/i is because Bit3's ROM IS NOT mapping on $D600-D6FF window. It is is being blocked from that address space. All you get is phantom floating-bus data, no matter if you try to manually "jump-start" Bit3 by writing $18 to $D508, or no matter how you strip down the system config. on Incognito BIOS (with our without 52K, Axlon, SDX, Basic, etc.) So my preliminary conclusion (without further knowledge on the matter) is that the Bit3 is INCOMPATIBLE with Incognito and (if that is true), then a whole slew of upgrades for slot 3 may also be incompatible (Austin Franklin 80col, etc.). In fact, I am now starting to doubt if any slot (beyond slot-0) is good for anything (!?) Or is it because there are some signals missing on Slot3 that will only come from populating (at least) slot 1? Does anyone here have experience on how to successfully configure the 800/Incognito for proper interoperability with the Bit3? Regards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) Even in Colleen mode? is it that ram issue rearing it's head again or something more physical. Sounds like a job for the incognito creator and his associates. Edited April 1, 2020 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 22 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: Even in Colleen mode? is it that ram issue rearing it's head again or something more physical. Sounds like a job for the incognito creator and his associates. Correct, even in Colleen mode (which is the only mode I tested the variables I mentioned above). Something is really wrong / amiss, here. This should not be happening or, at least, the problem (and root causes) should have been already reported before. I have not been able to find anything on this matter, so far. I suppose it is due to the scarcity of Bit3 itself. I am having a really hard time believing I am the first one reporting this, after 7 years of Incognito's existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 I don't find it hard to believe. Many people just move on waiting for some one else to speak up or solve it. The easy button can then be pushed after it's solved. Let's not dismiss the collect and forget crew as well. The true add on cards like the BIT3 take advantage of a couple of the 800's excellent capabilities.... It doesn't slow down the machine, and in fact a few of the old time long forgotten tidbits used it to great advantage, shutting off the normal Atari screen, letting the beast loose while the add on video card did the display gymnastics. I have not doubt that the reasons will be found and am hopeful they will be dealt with. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 I suggest someone PMs Candle with these shattering revelations, since it's his department. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, _The Doctor__ said: I don't find it hard to believe. Many people just move on waiting for some one else to speak up or solve it. The easy button can then be pushed after it's solved. Let's not dismiss the collect and forget crew as well. The true add on cards like the BIT3 take advantage of a couple of the 800's excellent capabilities.... It doesn't slow down the machine, and in fact a few of the old time long forgotten tidbits used it to great advantage, shutting off the normal Atari screen, letting the beast loose while the add on video card did the display gymnastics. I have not doubt that the reasons will be found and am hopeful they will be dealt with. Totally agree. HW like this take advantage of the 800's architecture, which essentially disappeared as soon as the 1200XL was introduced (and everything else that came after). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 Just now, flashjazzcat said: I suggest someone PMs Candle with these shattering revelations, since it's his department. Seems to me that, the more plausible approach would be to (first) correlate current findings with other end-user experiences, validate what we are seeing, and then go to his department with a solid case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 We need ClausB on this loop... at least from a legacy-HW perspective, and possible causes for malfunction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Well, whatever you think best; I'm just pointing out that there are no associates working on the Incognito CPLD code, so until Candle's attention is drawn to the matter, nothing will happen. Also: what if the behaviour comes as no surprise to the hardware developer and/or is 'by design', and the explanation could be offered at once, without further investigation? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: Well, whatever you think best; I'm just pointing out that there are no associates working on the Incognito CPLD code, so until Candle's attention is drawn to the matter, nothing will happen. Also: what if the behaviour comes as no surprise to the hardware developer and/or is 'by design', and the explanation could be offered at once, without further investigation? I am actually hoping for the best (at least knowing if it ever will or not work). But if you are remotely suggesting that this was already known at development but never disclosed to buyers (if I am reading you correctly), that would not be good at all. So let's keep in track, and (in the mean time) figure out if we are just missing signals from Slot-1 into Slot-3, because we left Slot-1 empty (no card on it). I can't discard this from my end (Claus may, though). Edited April 1, 2020 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 1 minute ago, Faicuai said: But if you are remotely suggesting that this was already known at development but never disclosed to buyers (if I am reading you correctly), that would not be good at all. I'm suggesting that if you discover a problem which isn't obviously PEBKAC, there's no reason not to let the developer know about it directly, since the developer will potentially be able to tell you why something doesn't work, even if he didn't know it wouldn't work when he designed the product. Anyway: rather than get drawn any further into a syndrome of verbal parry and lunge, I have linked Candle to this thread. You're welcome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 While I have 2 BIT3 cards, both are broken. One I bought defective, the other I got and it has no attached cables. While I have 2 800s, one with Incognito and one without, the one without is also not in a working state so I have effectively zero to contribute I suppose I should at some point get the other 800 working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted April 1, 2020 Author Share Posted April 1, 2020 3 hours ago, Stephen said: While I have 2 BIT3 cards, both are broken. One I bought defective, the other I got and it has no attached cables. While I have 2 800s, one with Incognito and one without, the one without is also not in a working state so I have effectively zero to contribute I suppose I should at some point get the other 800 working. Interesting... Have you had any chance to cross-troubleshoot them and see what may be damaged (on the one that still has video cable?) If you came to a dead-end street, Let me know (via pm)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Faicuai said: Interesting... Have you had any chance to cross-troubleshoot them and see what may be damaged (on the one that still has video cable?) If you came to a dead-end street, Let me know (via pm)... Sorry - most of the last 10 months work has been kicking my ass something fierce. Transmission rebuild on my fun car has been stalled for a solid 2 years I'm starting to get un-burried however, hoping to start clearing out a back log of projects, and Atari stuff usually bubbles to top priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted April 2, 2020 Author Share Posted April 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Stephen said: Sorry - most of the last 10 months work has been kicking my ass something fierce. Transmission rebuild on my fun car has been stalled for a solid 2 years I'm starting to get un-burried however, hoping to start clearing out a back log of projects, and Atari stuff usually bubbles to top priority. No prob. If you feel the need to find out faster what is wrong (while still short of troubleshooting bandwidth), just let me know. I think I could help... Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted April 2, 2020 Author Share Posted April 2, 2020 20 hours ago, flashjazzcat said: I'm suggesting that if you discover a problem which isn't obviously PEBKAC, there's no reason not to let the developer know about it directly, since the developer will potentially be able to tell you why something doesn't work, even if he didn't know it wouldn't work when he designed the product. Anyway: rather than get drawn any further into a syndrome of verbal parry and lunge, I have linked Candle to this thread. You're welcome. Missed this one... Thanks! (appreciated) I am also confident any developer that truly stands behind his/her product (and appreciates his / her customer base first-and-foremost), will surely spring into action, with little or no need of extra pokes. At this point, I have been searching all over, trying to make sure I did not miss something obvious (or any prior discussion on this matter) and, unfortunately, have not been able to find anything up to this point. There's GOT to be someone else, somewhere, that has tried this already (!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Faicuai said: I am also confident any developer that truly stands behind his/her product (and appreciates his / her customer base first-and-foremost), will surely spring into action, with little or no need of extra pokes. This presupposes that the developer is aware of new threads popping up on the forum in which they are not tagged by name. Candle doesn't own a BIT3 board, anyway; perhaps someone feels like lending him one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted April 2, 2020 Author Share Posted April 2, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: This presupposes that the developer is aware of new threads popping up on the forum in which they are not tagged by name. Candle doesn't own a BIT3 board, anyway; perhaps someone feels like lending him one. Tagging not needed for Incognito, as there are no alter-egos out there. Nevertheless, not owning a Bit3 is more than understandable (they are unobtanium). If he needs one, all he has to do is ask. It would be great to first attempt anything we can remotely, and then proceed with shipment. Edited April 2, 2020 by Faicuai 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 The Bit3 incompatibility of the 800/Incognito was mentioned awhile ago. The other issue is not being able to use the Basic XE Extension disk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted April 2, 2020 Author Share Posted April 2, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, AtariGeezer said: The Bit3 incompatibility of the 800/Incognito was mentioned awhile ago. The other issue is not being able to use the Basic XE Extension disk. Basic-XE extension problems has been already identified (floating bus-data on $D013) and sw-mitigated with targeted patch for the library. In fact, I am running BasicXE with OSS extensions 4.11 Where are the tests (and root-cause) of Bit3 malfunction on Incognito? Do you know the link or reference? Edited April 2, 2020 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Faicuai said: Basic-XE extension problems has been already identified (floating bus-data on $D013) and sw-mitigated with targeted patch for the library. In fact, I am running BasicXE with OSS extensions 4.11 Where are the tests (and root-cause) of Bit3 malfunction on Incognito? Do you know the link or reference? Where is the Basic-XE extension patch? Haven't seen tests of the Bit3 malfunction. My Bit3 has been boxed since I installed the Incognito. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted April 2, 2020 Author Share Posted April 2, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, AtariGeezer said: Where is the Basic-XE extension patch? Haven't seen tests of the Bit3 malfunction. My Bit3 has been boxed since I installed the Incognito. So you never tested your Bit3 on Incognito? Here's the link for OSS extensions, patched and tested under Incognito: Edited April 2, 2020 by Faicuai 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 Not yet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Faicuai said: Nevertheless, not owning a Bit3 is more than understandable (they are unobtanium). If he needs one, all he has to do is ask. It would be great to first attempt anything we can remotely, and then proceed with shipment. After lending a bit3 to Candle, lend it to tf_hh and maybe it can be replicated. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 or the franklin 80 col. color card, maybe the best of both combined.... 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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