What could have saved the Jag?

[Shaggy the Atarian]

9 minutes ago, Albert said:

For those who aren't aware, Paramount has remastered Star Trek: The Motion Picture in 4K, including updated special effects, and it came out today on Paramount+.  Coming to theaters in May and to Blu-Ray in September.

 

https://blog.trekcore.com/2022/03/star-trek-motion-picture-directors-edition-remastered-paramount-plus-april-5/

 

I haven't watched this movie in some time, so I very much look forward to watching this new, remastered version!

 

 ..Al

Ah, I thought that it would be hitting 4k Blu-ray this Spring. Well, I can wait until Fall. Glad to hear the update.

 

8 minutes ago, Editorb said:

I think we've stumbled upon what would have saved the system, at least with the Editorb demographic.

Well, there was American Hero, which had many jugs about...

[Lostdragon]

2 minutes ago, Albert said:

For those who aren't aware, Paramount has remastered Star Trek: The Motion Picture in 4K, including updated special effects, and it came out today on Paramount+.  Coming to theaters in May and to Blu-Ray in September.

 

https://blog.trekcore.com/2022/03/star-trek-motion-picture-directors-edition-remastered-paramount-plus-april-5/

 

I haven't watched this movie in some time, so I very much look forward to watching this new, remastered version!

 

 ..Al

I picked up the normal Blu-ray compilation, as wasn't sure how well the films had aged in some instances. 

 

 

Amazing what i had forgotten or missed the first time around. 

 

The Klingon Bird Of Prey models still look superb and are a fantastic, almost Naval design, in places. 

 

Didn't realise the last Bird Of Prey gets off a final rear fired missile, knowing it's futile, just before V'ger plasma bolt hits it. 

 

Fighting till the very end. 

 

 

That opening sequence and THAT music, still bloody amazing. 

 

 

Be warned, the Vulcan homeworld looks very dated in HD, use of paintings for backdrops is jarring on the eyes. 

 

 

As for the film.. 

 

 

Remembered the malfunctioning transporter incident, but not crewman Rand at the controls... 

 

Did stifle a laugh when baldylocks ?is walking Kirk, Mcoy etc to meet V'ger direct. 

 

High heels? on that surface? 

 

 

You'll break your bloody neck love. 

 

Bit of a lump in my throat, realising just how many actors from the film are sadly no longer with us ?

[Jag64]

On 3/26/2022 at 11:19 AM, Bill Loguidice said:

Well said. Even going with far lower numbers, that's still assuming the UK market size all of a sudden would have been historically larger than it was. They surely missed out on some sales, but there's little reason to believe it would have made any notable impact on the overall outcome considering all of the other factors.

The "millions of European preorders" rumors gets thrown at me pretty regularly when I'm discussing how Atari was already dead by the Jaguar's launch. Had someone just a few minutes ago say Europe had millions of preorders for the Atari Jaguar. 

 

*Nothing could save the Jaguar or Atari from the Tramiels. While fanboys bicker about a dead console that never had a chance, Sam is driving around California in his Tesla and sipping decaf espressos with not a care in the world. End of story.

[Lostdragon]

12 minutes ago, Jag64 said:

The "millions of European preorders" rumors gets thrown at me pretty regularly when I'm discussing how Atari was already dead by the Jaguar's launch. Had someone just a few minutes ago say Europe had millions of preorders for the Atari Jaguar. 

 

*Nothing could save the Jaguar or Atari from the Tramiels. While fanboys bicker about a dead console that never had a chance, Sam is driving around California in his Tesla and sipping decaf espressos with not a care in the world. End of story.

Best thing to do when anyone presents such a claim, ask for credible proof from European sources within Atari, distribution chains, heads of retail. 

 

They were the ones making the buying decisions, placing the orders. 

 

 

If there's convincing evidence from multiple sources, it can be moved beyond speculation and rumour. 

 

 

Until such evidence is presented.... 

 

And it's now only 2 million? 

 

What happened to the other 500,000 orders? 

 

 

I'd also ask the question of what the exact definition of Europe is with the claim. 

 

Other than the UK, where exactly was the demand for the Jaguar so strong? 

 

 

France? 

Germany? 

Belgium? 

Italy? 

Spain? 

Netherlands? 

 

If people are convinced the demand was so high, they must be able to give a more detailed account than simply state a blanket claim of Europe, 2 Million plus... 

 

 

?

Edited April 6, 2022 by Lostdragon

[Punisher5.0]

34 minutes ago, Jag64 said:

The "millions of European preorders" rumors gets thrown at me pretty regularly when I'm discussing how Atari was already dead by the Jaguar's launch. Had someone just a few minutes ago say Europe had millions of preorders for the Atari Jaguar. 

 

*Nothing could save the Jaguar or Atari from the Tramiels. While fanboys bicker about a dead console that never had a chance, Sam is driving around California in his Tesla and sipping decaf espressos with not a care in the world. End of story.

LOL

[RJ]

All it needed were Jag versions of Night Trap, Plumbers Don't Wear Ties, & an updated version of Samantha Fox Strip Poker.

[Bill Loguidice]

2 hours ago, Jag64 said:

The "millions of European preorders" rumors gets thrown at me pretty regularly when I'm discussing how Atari was already dead by the Jaguar's launch. Had someone just a few minutes ago say Europe had millions of preorders for the Atari Jaguar. 

 

*Nothing could save the Jaguar or Atari from the Tramiels. While fanboys bicker about a dead console that never had a chance, Sam is driving around California in his Tesla and sipping decaf espressos with not a care in the world. End of story.

Holy cow, parroting that claim is stunning in its lack of critical thought. If Atari really had 2 million pre-orders for the Jaguar, I'm sure management would have taken a few seconds to do a happy dance and then literally relocated their HQ over there and focused almost exclusively on that territory. Those numbers would have been staggering, especially at that time. They could have also easily borrowed the funds necessary to get the factory production time to meet such a demand, especially considering the tepid-at-best retailer response for the Jaguar's launch in the US.

[JagChris]

I doubt it. Sales of Lynx are reported around 3 million and Atari ignored it at the time the Jag came out.

[Bill Loguidice]

11 minutes ago, JagChris said:

I doubt it. Sales of Lynx are reported around 3 million and Atari ignored it at the time the Jag came out.

And, if true, that's over a period of roughly six years, including a period of time when it was the only color handheld available.

[JagChris]

I don't know if the presales were that big. I think they were probably of a magnitude that would have helped. Atari just needed enough to survive.

 

At the time the Atari Lynx had an established base of around that size and Atari ignored it. It seems they didn't have any sense about a lot of things.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

3 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Holy cow, parroting that claim is stunning in its lack of critical thought. 

First time encountering Mr. Hawken? 

[roots.genoa]

And once again, I'm still not convinced pre-ordering was that common at the time. Parents bought video game systems most of the time, and they don't pre-order stuff.

[Albert]

Just now, roots.genoa said:

And once again, I'm still not convinced pre-ordering was that common at the time. Parents bought video game systems most of the time, and they don't pre-order stuff.

There was no pre-ordering back then, you went to the store and bought what you wanted, if it was available. 

 

I purchased my Jaguar at a Nobody Beats the Wiz in Framingham, Massachusetts the first day they had them in stock.  I also bought my Jaguar CD in a retail store when they first became available, although I don't recall where I purchased that.  The receipt may still be in my Jaguar CD box.  The Jaguar, Jaguar CD, and Atari Lynx are the only Atari systems I bought "new" when they came out that I still own.  All my older Atari systems (consoles and computers) were sold at some point before I got into retrogaming over 25 years ago.

 

 ..Al

[JagChris]

Preliminary interest or people wanting to be notified when it was available. Whatever. Something was going on. I have trouble believing Daryl would make up stories out of whole cloth about upset parents dumping trash cans in lobbies.

[Lostdragon]

8 hours ago, JagChris said:

Preliminary interest or people wanting to be notified when it was available. Whatever. Something was going on. I have trouble believing Daryl would make up stories out of whole cloth about upset parents dumping trash cans in lobbies.

Those anecdotes refer purely to the angry UK parents and nobody has ever doubted there were angry parents, unable to buy their kids a Jaguar, as stores like HMV, Virgin etc were given machines in single digits, that's well documented. 

 

 

It's the monumental leap that Darryl alone knew Pre-order figures for the entire European market, when he was merely part of the Atari UK team and responsible in part for just the UK, that bring the claim into such ridicule. 

 

Especially as it is not even attempted to substantiated by Peter Walker Atari UK PR and Bob Gleadow Atari UK MD

 

 

 

Once again for historical clarity, what was put to Darryl and Darryl's reply. 

 

Is it true you could have sold 20 times the amount of Jaguars you did in the UK?

 

 

Darryl

Yeah, nightmare time. Remember we had a really limited budget, but had done an amazing job of building the hype and demand for the machine and then we just could not get supply. I heard stories about failed chip supply and all sorts, but at the sharp end all we really saw was the vitriol and anger of mothers who could not get their kids what they really wanted for Christmas, and trust me, there is no anger to compare with a protective mum! We even had the contents of someone’s dustbin dumped in our reception area in Slough!

 

Darryl simply went with a suggestion Atari could of sold anything upto 20X the number of machines they managed to sell in the initial period. 

 

Lest we forget Darryl also claimed an X-rated version of FFL on Jaguar in Games World magazine the infamous Jenny Tits Oot For The Lads claim

 

Darryl got his backside handed to him in C+VG letters page after claiming Jaguar was as powerful as Saturn and just behind PlayStation after repeating what he was told. 

 

 

I like Darryl, he's given a lot to the community over the years, but this claim needs to be kept grounded in the reality of the situation he actually reported on and he has had a few ocvurances that did him no favours, press wise. 

 

But all this is irrelevant, Darry wasn't handling sales etc for all the European countries the Jaguar launched in, he didn't have access to the European distributors and retailers. 

 

 

Why on earth the likes of Jenovi and Guru Larry ran with such a nonsense claim is beyond me,it's simply help spread the nonsense and give it a degree of credibility it doesn't deserve. 

 

 

Shortage of units in UK? completely true. 

 

 

Over 2 million European pre-orders and the Tramiel's not having a press field day with such numbers? 

 

Not believeable. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Lostdragon

[Lostdragon]

13 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

And, if true, that's over a period of roughly six years, including a period of time when it was the only color handheld available.

And way behind the numbers Sam Tramiel claimed it would sell in it's first year and it didn't go onto crush the GB and destroy Nintendo, as Sam bragged it would. 

 

It limped in behind the Game Gear and was utterly destroyed by the Game Boy. 

 

Pityful sales for the potential the Lynx had. 

[Lostdragon]

14 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Holy cow, parroting that claim is stunning in its lack of critical thought. If Atari really had 2 million pre-orders for the Jaguar, I'm sure management would have taken a few seconds to do a happy dance and then literally relocated their HQ over there and focused almost exclusively on that territory. Those numbers would have been staggering, especially at that time. They could have also easily borrowed the funds necessary to get the factory production time to meet such a demand, especially considering the tepid-at-best retailer response for the Jaguar's launch in the US.

I'm ending on full Trek. 

 

 

It's like  when V'ger refused to accept the pre-programmed transmission that would signal it to transmit its accumulated data. The probe burned out a relay connection, rather than accept logic.. 

 

 

Certain carbon-based lifeforms, infesting social media, still refuse to accept the 2 million plus European Pre-orders as an utter pipe dream

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Lostdragon

[JagChris]

Atari should have supported the Lynx at least. Even today games like Warbirds and Desert Strike are heralded as amazing for a handheld of its time. 

 

They were really stupid.

[Jag64]

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

They were really stupid.

They managed to take the second most recognizable brand in the world, and completely run it into the ground in under 10 years. Because as we found out, Atari was dead long before the Atari Jaguar failed spectacularly. It's almost unthinkable to imagine a family or group of people so insanely inept today, that they could destroy a brand that valuable in such a short time.

 

Not supporting the Lynx was stupid, but it was simply another symptom. The disease was the Tramiels.

[LordKraken]

12 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

And once again, I'm still not convinced pre-ordering was that common at the time. Parents bought video game systems most of the time, and they don't pre-order stuff.

I didn't pre-order it, but I "booked" it. Same thing just I didn't have to advance the money (better times I guess?).

 

At the Fnac from Nice, late 1993 waiting through all of 1994...

[JagChris]

8 minutes ago, Jag64 said:

They managed to take the second most recognizable brand in the world, and completely run it into the ground in under 10 years. Because as we found out, Atari was dead long before the Atari Jaguar failed spectacularly. It's almost unthinkable to imagine a family or group of people so insanely inept today, that they could destroy a brand that valuable in such a short time.

 

Not supporting the Lynx was stupid, but it was simply another symptom. The disease was the Tramiels.

That's a double edged sword though. Without the Tramiels We wouldn't have had the Atari XE/Lynx or the Jaguar. 

 

Yeah they messed up but without them we wouldn't have a lot of the things that we remember.

Edited April 7, 2022 by JagChris

[Jag64]

13 minutes ago, JagChris said:

That's a double edged sword though. Without the Tramiels We wouldn't have had the Atari XE/Lynx or the Jaguar. 

 

Yeah they messed up but without them we wouldn't have a lot of the things that we remember.

This is where I probably differ from most people on this site, I've never even seen an Atari computer in person. You couldn't find Atari anything in Cincinnati after 1987, unless it was discount 2600 carts. The Lynx was great, but they fumbled that spectacularly too. Epix may have found someone else, someone better to take the Lynx off their hands (as if I remember correctly, it was prototyped completely and working well before Atari got involved).

 

I guess the long and short of it is that if you liked Atari computers, you probably like the Tramiels. If you're not into antique computers, then all the Tramiels offer is a timeline of one bad business decision after another. And honestly, I'd probably have more respect for them, if they had respected the consumer(s) in the slightest. Sure, many of the quotes attributed to Sam are hearsay, but geeze. The guy clearly thought he was smarter than he ever was, and that consumers were dumber than they actually were. I'm a simple guy; if I see someone act like a greedy POS scumbag, I view them as a POS scumbag from then on. There are too many people in this world to waste time on trying to figure out if a scumbag has any redeeming qualities.

[+jgkspsx]

5 hours ago, JagChris said:

Atari should have supported the Lynx at least. Even today games like Warbirds and Desert Strike are heralded as amazing for a handheld of its time. 

 

They were really stupid.

Gotta say, the Strike trilogy is much better on Game Gear. They needed the extra vertical resolution. Although the extra buttons on the Lynx do help a lot.
 

Warbirds, Battlewheels, CyberVirus, Battlezone 2000, Blue Lightning… all of those could not have been done on any other handheld of the time.

 

The Game Boy has one somewhat comparable game, X, developed by the most ingenious Nintendo coders on the planet, Argonaut. Several different teams were able to do it with much less funding on the Lynx.

[Lostdragon]

5 hours ago, JagChris said:

Atari should have supported the Lynx at least. Even today games like Warbirds and Desert Strike are heralded as amazing for a handheld of its time. 

 

They were really stupid.

Dangling the carrot of titles like Cabal, Rolling Thunder, Vindicators etc and not really making any effort to get them out on the system, was a cruel blow. 

 

AVP was another that could of done wonders. 

 

 

Late paying Carmack on his first milestone payment, so he abandons his Lynx conversion of Wolfenstein 3D (and Carmack really loved the hardware), just highlights the absolute contempt Atari treated consumer and developer alike, when it came to the Lynx. 

 

Keeping cartridge sizes small to save money, so content had to be cut from Lynx titles in arcade conversions xwas another. 

 

Penny pinching struck again. 

[Lostdragon]

48 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:

Gotta say, the Strike trilogy is much better on Game Gear. They needed the extra vertical resolution. Although the extra buttons on the Lynx do help a lot.
 

Warbirds, Battlewheels, CyberVirus, Battlezone 2000, Blue Lightning… all of those could not have been done on any other handheld of the time.

 

The Game Boy has one somewhat comparable game, X, developed by the most ingenious Nintendo coders on the planet, Argonaut. Several different teams were able to do it with much less funding on the Lynx.

The Kremlin did wonders with Game Gear Desert Strike. 

 

The low resolution on the Lynx was always going to cause headaches, but the people who handled the Lynx conversion should of adjusted the art assets for the reduced resolution and colours. 

 

They ommited the ground detail as well. 

 

Controls felt a little sluggish, sound was workman like. 

 

 

It seemed like yet another case of if only the conversion had been given to a different developer, more of the Lynx potential could of been used and the system had an even better version. 

 

 

But Atari were never in a position to use the cream of the third party development teams. 

 

I'd add Stun Runner to your above list as well, that was a conversion handled oh so well on the Lynx. 

 

Use the hardware wisely, sprite rings rather than polygons, in order to keep the essential sense of speed and you've THE flagship version of the game at the time, period, as well as something you couldn't replicate on GB or GG.