What could have saved the Jag?

[+Sauron]

2 hours ago, laymanpigeon said:

Whatever it is, Atari has unleashed Jaguar a bit too soon.

Not much later EDO DRAM and SDRAM were available.

SDRAM was mighty expensive, but that latency it had.

Yes, stupid Atari for not using a magic crystal ball to see what kind of RAM would be available in the future! 

 

[laymanpigeon]

2 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Yes, stupid Atari for not using a magic crystal ball to see what kind of RAM would be available in the future! 

???

 

Samsung was first to start producing SDRAM in 1992.

JEDEC has declared standards for SDRAM in 1993.

SDRAM mass production by Samsung also in 1993.

16 megabit capacity with 64bit wide data bus.

[+Sauron]

3 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

???

 

Samsung was first to start producing SDRAM in 1992.

JEDEC has declared standards for SDRAM in 1993.

SDRAM mass production by Samsung also in 1993.

16 megabit capacity with 64bit wide data bus.

???

 

Your point being? Or are you using the Jag forum just to have conversations with yourself?

 

[42bs]

1 hour ago, Cyprian said:

From performance point of view, I wonder whether would be better to have 26MHz 32Bit bus instead of the current one 13MHZ 64Bit bus.

Always the same game:

SW developer: Hey HW, your system is too slow.

HW developer: No, SW, your code is too bad/bloated.

 

[laymanpigeon]

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

???

 

Your point being? Or are you using the Jag forum just to have conversations with yourself?

 

Did you not wrote this?

1 hour ago, Sauron said:

Yes, stupid Atari for not using a magic crystal ball to see what kind of RAM would be available in the future! 

 

Anyway SDRAM having far lower latency could possibly saved Jaguar.

Especially when Blitter in Tom was doing texturing of polygons.

As textures could not be cached inside Tom's 4KB of SRAM.

 

Solution would be to add more SRAM or instruction set related to texturing.

Yet Atari pushed near limits of Motorola's ASIC with Tom's transistor count.

Perhaps they could push it and have less successful production output.

 

Though Jerry could have probably been produced on smaller Fujitsu's ASIC.

Thus Motorola's ASIC production capacity could be used solely for Tom.

As what was allocated for Jerry could be assigned for Tom's production.

Edited August 23, 2022 by laymanpigeon
clarification

[Editorb]

2 hours ago, laymanpigeon said:

???

 

Samsung was first to start producing SDRAM in 1992.

JEDEC has declared standards for SDRAM in 1993.

SDRAM mass production by Samsung also in 1993.

16 megabit capacity with 64bit wide data bus.

The Jag chipset was developed like ‘90-‘93, so they used the tech available. 

[Cyprian]

3 hours ago, 42bs said:

Always the same game:

SW developer: Hey HW, your system is too slow.

HW developer: No, SW, your code is too bad/bloated.

 

so true,

 

anyway, Nintendo with it's Wii proved that it can win with under-powered console

[laymanpigeon]

2 hours ago, Editorb said:

The Jag chipset was developed like ‘90-‘93, so they used the tech available. 

That is within confines of when such chipset was designed and that it could be modified or new design be made.

26 minutes ago, Cyprian said:

so true,

 

anyway, Nintendo with it's Wii proved that it can win with under-powered console

5th generation of home consoles was basically Sony, Nintendo and Sega.
Arguably PlayStation was weakest and Nintendo 64 most powerful.

In 6th generation Sega with Dreamcast quit after couple years.

Sony's PlayStation 2 is weakest console after Dreamcast.

On other hand Nintendo lost 8th generation with Wii U.

Then again is winning with Switch hybrid console.

[+cubanismo]

I'm sure they knew RAM could be faster than what they used. Jaguar had a 64-bjt bus so it could use cheap DRAM (paraphrasing an interview quote from John Mathieson, not speculating) and achieve a cerain level of performanceat a certain price point, not so it could have the highest memory throughput in the world. Making the Jaguar more expensive would have been counterproductive.  It already performed great relative to other consoles at the time it launched. Atari just weren't able to capitalize on that advantage quickly enough.

[zzip]

6 minutes ago, cubanismo said:

I'm sure they knew RAM could be faster than what they used. Jaguar had a 64-bjt bus so it could use cheap DRAM (paraphrasing an interview quote from John Mathieson, not speculating) and achieve a cerain level of performanceat a certain price point, not so it could have the highest memory throughput in the world. Making the Jaguar more expensive would have been counterproductive.  It already performed great relative to other consoles at the time it launched. Atari just weren't able to capitalize on that advantage quickly enough.

In any era, You can always build a more powerful, more expensive console.   3DO did just that at the time of the Jaguar.  It didn't save their console, and it wouldn't have saved the Jag.   The cheapest/weakest console often wins the console war.   But that didn't save Jag either. 

 

These threads are always look for a magic hardware bullet that would have made it just work.   But in reality most gamers don't buy consoles based on specs.   Most are clueless what the specs of their favorite console even are.   It all comes down to brand, games, and marketing.   People stick with the brand they trust,  if they switch it's going to be because of the games

 

Atari did have the best brand in gaming in the early 80s,  but staring in 84 they began watering it down with a bunch of short-sighted decisions.   By the time the Jaguar came out, the Atari brand was a shadow of what it used to be.   There was now a whole generation of kids who cut their teeth on NES and never had a 2600.  The Atari name meant little to them.   If Atari was going to win them over, they needed killer games and a massive marketing budget, which they didn't have.

 

So nothing could have saved the Jag.  The Jaguar was lost when Atari started pissing away their console game mindshare starting in 84.

[42bs]

13 minutes ago, zzip said:

So nothing could have saved the Jag. 

Well, a good selling Lynx might have helped to get the brand back. 

[zzip]

10 minutes ago, 42bs said:

Well, a good selling Lynx might have helped to get the brand back. 

Perfect example.   Truly innovative hardware, but was lacking the right games and marketing.    People would rather buy the weaker, monochrome Gameboy to play Tetris, Super Mario Land and Dr. Mario, which were among the hottest games around.  While Lynx had some good titles, it had nothing with the kind of pull Nintendo had.

Edited August 23, 2022 by zzip

[Frozone212]

claiming 64 bit while using 2 32 bit RISC processors was the first mistake. In order to be true 64 bit, it would need a custom processor designed for 64 bit instructions. Back in the 90s 64 bit CPU's didn't exist. I wonder what a Re-launched Jag would be capable of with modern hardware installed but the same base config?

[laymanpigeon]

43 minutes ago, zzip said:

In any era, You can always build a more powerful, more expensive console. 3DO did just that at the time of the Jaguar. It didn't save their console, and it wouldn't have saved the Jag.

Issue with mentioning 3DO that 3DO company did not produce themselves 3DO and instead licensed design to other companies.
Those then did by themselves at their own initiative produced 3DO console thus higher cost than it otherwise would have been.

43 minutes ago, zzip said:

The cheapest/weakest console often wins the console war.   But that didn't save Jag either. 

Commodore's CD32 that is revised CDTV is actually weakest console of 5th generation than even Sega's 32X add-on for Genesis/Mega Drive.
Jaguar despite having severe hardware bugs thus architecture not performing to its potential has outdone 32X in terms performance and fidelity.

43 minutes ago, zzip said:

These threads are always look for a magic hardware bullet that would have made it just work. But in reality most gamers don't buy consoles based on specs.

If nothing else my suggestion for SDRAM replacing FPM RAM would have been timely band-aid that could offset some of issues that Jaguar had.

In such scenario games could have performed better, less time thus money spent on finding a way to get acceptable performance and so on...

43 minutes ago, zzip said:

So nothing could have saved the Jag.  The Jaguar was lost when Atari started pissing away their console game mindshare starting in 84.

That is outright false.

 

Atari and Commodore could have cooperated if differences between two could have been settled or at least conflict from past were let go.

Since Jack was pushed out of Commodore by their CEO when he wanted to Commodore to acquire Atari back in mid 1980s.

If there was partnership/joint venture between two then both Commodore and Atari could have avoid or delayed demise.

 

After all as Commodore produced 400,000 units of CD32 only to bankrupt itself due to not being able to sell those fast enough.

With that next generation console they and HP were developing ceased and HP turned it over to Intel that resulted in Itanium.

CD32 was priced at 400USD and released not that much before Jaguar that was priced at 250USD when it released.

[42bs]

47 minutes ago, Frozone212 said:

Back in the 90s 64 bit CPU's didn't exist.

Sure, they did:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R4000

[Chris+++]

Actually, it has been saved, thanks to you guys.

 

 

[Zerosquare]

33 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

Atari and Commodore could have cooperated if differences between two could have been settled or at least conflict from past were let go.

And if my aunt had wheels, she'd be a bike.

[+GoldLeader]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

In any era, You can always build a more powerful, more expensive console.   3DO did just that at the time of the Jaguar.  It didn't save their console, and it wouldn't have saved the Jag.   The cheapest/weakest console often wins the console war.   But that didn't save Jag either. 

 

These threads are always look for a magic hardware bullet that would have made it just work.   But in reality most gamers don't buy consoles based on specs.   Most are clueless what the specs of their favorite console even are.   It all comes down to brand, games, and marketing.   People stick with the brand they trust,  if they switch it's going to be because of the games

 

 

 

Definitely this!

 

In fact,  I'd say a lot of times it comes down to Games, Games, and Games.   Being a fan of Atari I was even slightly interested in the Jaguar, but at the time I didn't see ONE game I thought I'd really like!  It probably didn't help that I was a poor college student around then,  and didn't have much extra money,  but if I saw even 3 games I really wanted...I might have figured out a way...I mean my Student Loans, scholarships, and Pell Grants were there right?  

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, Frozone212 said:

claiming 64 bit while using 2 32 bit RISC processors was the first mistake. In order to be true 64 bit, it would need a custom processor designed for 64 bit instructions. Back in the 90s 64 bit CPU's didn't exist. I wonder what a Re-launched Jag would be capable of with modern hardware installed but the same base config?

Nigh on 30 years later and this drivel is still being spouted.  Go read the tech manual and see what it has to say about 64-bit instructions.

[42bs]

2 minutes ago, GoldLeader said:

Games, Games, and Games

Call me Kassandra, but that'll be the reason the new VCS won't make it. Not one game which makes it a must have.

[laymanpigeon]

Games matter and if Jaguar had no hardware bugs by time it launched there would have been more games on it.

Since developers otherwise would not have need to dedicate as much time in finding ways to optimize their games.

Usually when performance is lacking it is fault of developer, but in case of Jaguar that can be attributed to hardware.

 

Checkered Flag would not have had been a slideshow and Alien Vs Predator could have came sooner.

[zzip]

43 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

Issue with mentioning 3DO that 3DO company did not produce themselves 3DO and instead licensed design to other companies.
Those then did by themselves at their own initiative produced 3DO console thus higher cost than it otherwise would have been.

No the problem is 3DO is not Nintendo or Sega or even Sony.  So even less mindshare than Atari going in and with $700+ consoles to boot.   Nobody's buying that except for a small band of curiousity-seekers with extra money to burn.

 

50 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

If nothing else my suggestion for SDRAM replacing FPM RAM would have been timely band-aid that could offset some of issues that Jaguar had.

In such scenario games could have performed better, less time thus money spent on finding a way to get acceptable performance and so on...

Again this doesn't fix the real problems-  lack of killer IPs (AvP is a start, but it needed more that that)  and lack of marketing budget to go against competators who are in a much stronger financial position by this point.

 

53 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

Atari and Commodore could have cooperated if differences between two could have been settled or at least conflict from past were let go.

Since Jack was pushed out of Commodore by their CEO when he wanted to Commodore to acquire Atari back in mid 1980s.

If there was partnership/joint venture between two then both Commodore and Atari could have avoid or delayed demise.

 

After all as Commodore produced 400,000 units of CD32 only to bankrupt itself due to not being able to sell those fast enough.

With that next generation console they and HP were developing ceased and HP turned it over to Intel that resulted in Itanium.

CD32 was priced at 400USD and released not that much before Jaguar that was priced at 250USD when it released.

Commodore couldn't have saved Atari.  They had similar problems-   Put so many resources into a new computer brand that would be a dead-end in a few years due to the PC clone market.   Commodore had even less console cred than Atari did.   Whether Commodore bought Atari under Jack's leadership or Jack buys Atari on its own, the end result is the same-  Atari is under Jacks leadership style..    Which means do everything on the cheap, focus on the computer end and only minimally invest in consoles-   because consoles are dead!  Our Commodore ads said so!

 

The only good outcome for Atari I can see is if they maintained the marketing muscle they had before the sale (the version of Atari Nintendo feared),  gone all-in on consoles at the expense of the computer line and hunkered down for a few lean years.  They needed to give Nintendo a run for the money before Nintendo established their domination, not after.

[42bs]

6 minutes ago, laymanpigeon said:

Games matter and if Jaguar had no hardware bugs by time it launched there would have been more games on it.

There is not one console w/o bugs. This is a lame excuse. There have been killer games on C64 which was weaker and full of bugs. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by 42bs

[zzip]

1 hour ago, Frozone212 said:

claiming 64 bit while using 2 32 bit RISC processors was the first mistake. In order to be true 64 bit, it would need a custom processor designed for 64 bit instructions. Back in the 90s 64 bit CPU's didn't exist. I wonder what a Re-launched Jag would be capable of with modern hardware installed but the same base config?

I don't even think this matters that much.   Marketing has always abused tech specs to make hardware sound more impressive than it is.   The average consumer can't even explain what a 32-bit or 64-bit system actually means in real-world terms..  ( It just creates years of debate as to whether it is or isn't 64 bit )

 

But I do think Do The Math" slogan was terrible (games are fun, math is not for most people, why associate math with games?  LOL)  And if you actually do the math, it's hard to come up with 64-bits as your answer.

 

Nintendo: Now Your Playing With Power!

Sega: Sega Does What Nintendon't

Atari: Do The Math!

 

[Bill Loguidice]

10 minutes ago, zzip said:

No the problem is 3DO is not Nintendo or Sega or even Sony.  So even less mindshare than Atari going in and with $700+ consoles to boot.   Nobody's buying that except for a small band of curiousity-seekers with extra money to burn.

 

 

It still sold 8x the number of Jaguar and Jag CD units combined and had a much larger library. I'd argue that if the launch price were lower and "real" game releases a bit quicker, they could have gotten to an M2 release that would have been more than competitive with the PS1 and N64. Even with all the challenges, it almost got there. Clearly, it's more realistic to think what the 3DO platform could have done to survive than anything Atari could have done with the Jaguar, which was much, much further behind achieving sustainability.