What could have saved the Jag?

[Punisher5.0]

@laymanpigeon

 

Everyone is tired of you repeating your same number salad over and over non stop. If you continue then you'll be kicked out of this thread, the Neo Geo thread and possible others.

[phoenixdownita]

@Punisher5.0   given your avatar image …. “Finish him!”.

 

At times I am guilty of “repeating ad nauseam my opinion until it’s the only one left, by exhaustion, so it must be true” … which really is just a form of “amirite!” and even I got bored to hear the same “ditch W, double X, fix Y, integrate Z, people would gladly pay K….” aka amirite induced distortion field.

 

Repetitions don’t make anything right, never have, they make propaganda.

[Lost Monkey]

23 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

@Punisher5.0   given your avatar image …. “Finish him!”.

 

At times I am guilty of “repeating ad nauseam my opinion until it’s the only one left, by exhaustion, so it must be true” … which really is just a form of “amirite!” and even I got bored to hear the same “ditch W, double X, fix Y, integrate Z, people would gladly pay K….” aka amirite induced distortion field.

 

Repetitions don’t make anything right, never have, they make propaganda.

I just wanted to see how long he would keep it up... 😆  I am sure that eventually he would have just come to the conclusion that Atari should have released the PlayStation. :duh:

Edited Friday at 02:16 PM by Lost Monkey

[laymanpigeon]

1 hour ago, Punisher5.0 said:

@laymanpigeon

 

Everyone is tired of you repeating your same number salad over and over non stop. If you continue then you'll be kicked out of this thread, the Neo Geo thread and possible others.

People will get tired of things they do not understand.

Or they just do not want to acknowledge inconvenient.

25 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

@Punisher5.0   given your avatar image …. “Finish him!”.

 

At times I am guilty of “repeating ad nauseam my opinion until it’s the only one left, by exhaustion, so it must be true” … which really is just a form of “amirite!” and even I got bored to hear the same “ditch W, double X, fix Y, integrate Z, people would gladly pay K….” aka amirite induced distortion field.

 

Repetitions don’t make anything right, never have, they make propaganda.

I have yet to see anyone recently provide solid counter argument to my ideas, for most parts are complaints and insults with couple exceptions.

 

Same when I pointed out other memory types as candidates and reaction was it wasn't on PC then and when it was on X Y Z year happened as if it wasn't used beforehand or manufactured.

 

SDRAM was used in 32X in 1994 with derivative SGRAM used in Playstation along Saturn in models produced since 1995 and P6 Pentium supported SDRAM via chipsets in 1997 and another as counter argument about timelines, Pentium 4 used RDRAM in 2000 yet in 1996 was used on Nintendo 64. 16 megabit EDO DRAM sticks were produced already since 1992 for PC's, a year before Jaguar launched.

3 minutes ago, Lost Monkey said:

I just wanted to see how long he would keep it up... 😆  I am sure that eventually he would have just come to the conclusion that Atari should have released the PlayStation. :duh:

Since you mention, if 128 bit data bus was kept during development thus 4MB of DRAM then Jaguar could have ended up being CD-ROM console instead of cartridge based and motherboard would have been bigger, would not be surprising if such had chassis of Falcon Microbox or better yet if Atari made Jaguar based home computer instead of exiting PC market. At least then there could have been another use besides CoJag.

 

In the end Jaguar is victim of Tramiel's business ethics that goes as far at cost of longevity by racing towards bottom of barrel cost wise to point it is detrimental to hardware itself. If they were flexible with pricing during development then it could have very well been lite Playstation if upper edge was 400USD for launch price point.

 

That is if hardware wasn't bugged at all at bare minimum.

 

Also CoJag probably would not have been limited to FMV games.

 

[Punisher5.0]

Well that didn't take long

[phoenixdownita]

51 minutes ago, Punisher5.0 said:

Well that didn't take long

Fatality? Babality? Friendship? 

[+madman]

1 hour ago, laymanpigeon said:

People will get tired of things they do not understand.

You don't seem to understand what you're talking about, yet you don't tire of doing so.

[+remowilliams]

[phoenixdownita]

3 hours ago, Lost Monkey said:

I just wanted to see how long he would keep it up... 😆  I am sure that eventually he would have just come to the conclusion that Atari should have released the PlayStation. :duh:

You weren't following then, look here (numberwanging to 50%-ish of a PS1):

... somewhere else he claimed PS1 launched at 400US$ then lowered to 300US$, but that makes no sense, PS1 launched in US at 299US$ period 

the JP launch price of ~40000Y is irrelevant, the Saturn launched in US at 399US$ in May 1995 (compared to a JP launch price of ~45000Y) then because of Sony they had to lower it to 299US$ in October 1995 (PS1 was first on sale in US on September of 1995).

 

There's no place for a Jag at 400US$ or 300US$, heck there was no place for a Sega Saturn at 300US$ because 3d textured games were what people wanted at that time (and the Jag was not designed for it at all, and as we know even for the Saturn was somewhat of an afterthought), in fact the PS1 games Ridge Racer and Tekken were materially better to play than Sega Saturn versions of their 3d huge Arcade Hits of Daytona USA and VirtuaFighters even if those 2 versions were not that bad on their own right if rushed.

And btw by May 1996 the PS1 was discounted 199US$ (that's 8 month after officially going on sale in the US at 299US$) .... https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Price_cuts#Price_cuts_for_the_5th_generation
 

 

...but hey ... "captain amirite" for the win.

Wonder wonder if a third or fourth SH2 "would of" saved the Saturn? 

How about a quad speed CD reader (they were available "somewhere" beginning 1994)?
Nahhh I think Sega "should of" removed the 68EC000 then again it was the EC version ... 

Edited Friday at 05:55 PM by phoenixdownita

[Punisher5.0]

59 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

Fatality? Babality? Friendship? 

[phoenixdownita]

12 minutes ago, Punisher5.0 said:

I remember this:

 

 

One day me and a group of friends were playing some variant of D&D or Call of Cthulhu (can't remember) at my parents' place, the room we played in hosted a compact furnace in a corner. One of the cats liked to stay at the back of the furnace because it was warm but that's where there was also the air intake, at a certain point while we were playing the furnace turned on and we saw the cat scared shitless jump out of the back and running for its life (not in flame) .... and a friend uttered .... "Toastyyyyy!!!!" .... I think I laughed myself into peeing that day.

Edited Friday at 05:58 PM by phoenixdownita

[pacman000]

This thread is still going? Ok... I'm bored, so why not? A few options:

 

A less ambitious design, with fewer custom chips.

 

An earlier release date, perhaps in 1990 or 91.

 

Dedicated RAM for texture maps.

 

A better support system for developers. 

 

2D games remaining popular for another generation.

Edited Saturday at 02:41 AM by pacman000
Adding one more thing

[+madman]

5 hours ago, pacman000 said:

This thread is still going? Ok... I'm bored, so why not? A few options:

 

A less ambitious design, with fewer custom chips.

 

An earlier release date, perhaps in 1990 or 91.

 

Dedicated RAM for texture maps.

A less ambitious design with more RAM for texture maps released in 1990. Sounds like it would've been a 3D powerhouse!

[pacman000]

By 1990 standards it was. Problem is it had to meet 1993 standards.

[Bill Loguidice]

If we're going to play the specs game, I may as well join in (with one caveat). My suggestion - which again, like all the other ones wouldn't work because it was a company resource issue first and foremost, but is at least a technical opinion - is I would have kept the Jaguar exactly the same (since it was never going to be a 3D powerhouse at that time anyway), save for increased working memory (RAM; and obviously any bottlenecks related to its usage), and (here's the caveat) release one year earlier.

 

I was always disappointed that even with all of its issues, the Jaguar was not at least the, or an, ultimate 2D machine. The 16-bit era really set a high water mark for 2D gaming, and certainly a system like the Neo Geo both arcade and home (despite the unreachable price point), really drove that point as well. The Jaguar needed to do something demonstrably best-in-class (or near best-in-class for an affordable price), and it was never going to be, or could ever be, something 3D-related. 

 

Otherwise, if you kept everything else as-is, released 1 year earlier, and somehow got some best-in-class devs/publishers with actual resources to complete quality titles, perhaps first impressions would have been much, much better than what they were. But of course, we may as well wish for PS1-level 3D in 1991 at that point as that would have been just as likely.

 

(oh, and I guess it goes without saying, make it a six button controller, regardless of including the keypad or not)

Edited Saturday at 03:10 PM by Bill Loguidice

[agradeneu]

24 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

If we're going to play the specs game, I may as well join in (with one caveat). My suggestion - which again, like all the other ones wouldn't work because it was a company resource issue first and foremost, but is at least a technical opinion - is I would have kept the Jaguar exactly the same (since it was never going to be a 3D powerhouse at that time anyway), save for increased working memory (RAM; and obviously any bottlenecks related to its usage), and (here's the caveat) release one year earlier.

 

I was always disappointed that even with all of its issues, the Jaguar was not at least the, or an, ultimate 2D machine. The 16-bit era really set a high water mark for 2D gaming, and certainly a system like the Neo Geo both arcade and home (despite the unreachable price point), really drove that point as well. The Jaguar needed to do something demonstrably best-in-class (or near best-in-class for an affordable price), and it was never going to be, or could ever be, something 3D-related. 

 

Otherwise, if you kept everything else as-is, released 1 year earlier, and somehow got some best-in-class devs/publishers with actual resources to complete quality titles, perhaps first impressions would have been much, much better than what they were. But of course, we may as well wish for PS1-level 3D in 1991 at that point as that would have been just as likely.

 

(oh, and I guess it goes without saying, make it a six button controller, regardless of including the keypad or not)

I think for the price the Jag was "best in class" in its time, although for a very short period (late 1993 - mid 1994) 

 

But I think it won't change the hardened opinion bias anyway.

 

BTW it won "best new hardware" and "best game" at the Summer CES 1994, so it was not all doom and gloom from the start.

 

Edited Saturday at 03:34 PM by agradeneu

[XR4Tim]

56 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

I think for the price the Jag was "best in class" in its time, although for a very short period (late 1993 - mid 1994) 

 

But I think it won't change the hardened opinion bias anyway.

 

BTW it won "best new hardware" and "best game" at the Summer CES 1994, so it was not all doom and gloom from the start.

 

I agree.  I don't think any hardware changes would have saved the Jaguar because the hardware was only a minor contributor to its failure.  Some software developers in the US may have thought it was hard to code for and that may have limited the game library to a degree, but at the time of release, the Jaguar was significantly better than anything on the market, especially at the $249 price point (I'm looking at you, 3DO).  The bigger factors (as I understand it) were licensing fees and a very weak distribution network.  As I understand it, the licensing fees for Jaguar game development were much higher than the competition and that prevented developers from making games for the Jag.  As far as the distribution network, I didn't know anyone else with a Jaguar when I bought mine in '95, and the only friends of mine that had heard of the Jaguar were ones that read video game magazines.  If you wanted one, you had to go looking for it because it wasn't sold alongside the SNES and Genesis in most major stores (at least where I grew up).

Edited Saturday at 04:28 PM by XR4Tim

[phoenixdownita]

I mean Rayman on Jag is very pretty, it does look next gen as much as Astal on the Saturn.

 

I am not sure extra RAM per se was really a need unless it was very cheap (which I doubt or the CD32 would have had 2MB extra of fast ram), let alone if it launched in say mid 92 it would have been just 1y after the SNES launch in US and actually coincided with SNES EU launch. 
 

I think that when you compare the Jag to Megadrive/Snes it does show being materially better but without developers that can deliver the kind of innovation/gameplay of the best titles on those systems it’s just a paperweight.

 

EDIT: we can even play a better game, forget the Jag hw, what if Atari was the one behind the 3DO and that was the Jag? Do you really believe it would have drastically changed the final outcome? The 3DO sold ~2M and had the first Need For Speed and Road Rush which where as close as killer app for the system as you could get.

Edited Saturday at 04:35 PM by phoenixdownita

[agradeneu]

The Lynx was best in class and was dominated by the Gameboy.

If Hardware Power was the decisive factor for market success, the shape of the console landscape would be totally different today.

[phoenixdownita]

2 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

The Lynx was best in class and was dominated by the Gameboy.

If Hardware Power was the decisive factor for market success, the shape of the console landscape would be totally different today.

Actually all of the major handhelds were better than the GB.

GG/Nomad/Lynx/NGPC … all superior except in battery life but then again I heard GB Tetris was the killer app.

Edited Saturday at 04:37 PM by phoenixdownita

[agradeneu]

14 minutes ago, phoenixdownita said:

Actually all of the major handhelds were better than the GB.

GG/Nomad/Lynx/NGPC … all superior except in battery life but then again I heard GB Tetris was the killer app.

But Lynx and Gameboy were both released 1989, Nomad and NGPC came later a few years.

But even for home consoles, the weakest hardware can dominate, like PS2 did vs GameCube and Xbox. 

 

It was not the hardware that failed the Jaguar, but multiple reasons.

Edited Saturday at 04:53 PM by agradeneu

[alucardX]

3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

The Lynx was best in class and was dominated by the Gameboy.

If Hardware Power was the decisive factor for market success, the shape of the console landscape would be totally different today.

Excellent point.

[DetectiveOnTheHunt]

I may have gotten the history wrong but....

 

Jack Tramiel owned both Atari Corp and Commodore. So instead of two companies working on two separate 32-bit consoles, what if they both worked together to produce a console?

[CMR]

More than higher specs, I think better dev tools would have helped developers more.  I heard recently that the dev kits were Atari STs, and no PC compilers or tools were available.  I don't think it was too complex though.  I recently watched a Jeff Minter interview, and he thought it was easy to program 😂

Edited Sunday at 02:34 AM by CMR

[pacman000]

A Killer App. The Jaguar had some good games, but it didn't have that one game which would draw people to the system.

 

I don't think you can plan for such a game; they're lightning-in-a-bottle situations. You can only invest, & hope for the best. The more games you create, the better your chances are of catching that lightning.

 

Atari had neither the money nor the luck needed. Maybe, if the last few games were finished, they would have found that one gem which would make people seek out the system, even if it wasn't in Wal-Mart, Kmart, Ames, or Caldor.

 

It's pie in the sky stuff, sure, but that's true of anything dealing with the Jaguar. Even back when it was in production.