The Worlds Smallest Atari 8-Bit?

[Dinadan67]

You don't need a link, the flashing tool loads the newest firmware available. For information about the updates there is a thread in this forum: 

 

[rsh]

18 minutes ago, Dinadan67 said:

You don't need a link, the flashing tool loads the newest firmware available. For information about the updates there is a thread in this forum: 

 

Thank you.. I looked through it didn't see anything specific to the NUC+... So just to clarify you

had the same problem until you updated the firmware for NUC+?  I try not to update firmware

unless I really need to.  

 

How to properly update the NUC+  FujiNet Firmware:

1a) Unplug the NUC+ power cable (NOT SURE IF I NEED TO DO THIS STEP )

    Or

1b) Press ALT+0 to power down the NUC+  (DO THIS IF KEEPING POWER CABLE IN NUC+) 

 

2) Add the USB mini to NUC+ & PC.

3) Power cycle the FujiNet switch on back while holding the A button down in Front.  (I think I read dimmer lights will show indicating flash/program mode)

4) Run the flash installer, select correct comm port etc..

5) ?

 

I'm not sure about 1a or 1b.  Which way is preferred or required.   Any other problem with my steps.?

 

[rsh]

NUC+ with CART Basic XE boot with extension disk.

 

I upgraded to latest FujiNet firmware last night and I'm still getting the strange thing via FujiNet press OPTION and the cartridge never boots.  At first I thought it was not switching to CART but now I think it is.

So I tried several tests with real hardware 130XE vs the NUC+.  And determined the NUC+ is not behaving like the real hardware.   I'm using the SIOtoUSB and mounted the BXE Extensions disk to drive one w/ AspeQt.

On Real Hardware:

   - Original BASIC XE cartridge, Boot hear it reading disk lights on usbtosio flash, then a pause, then displays Loading Extensions 4.11 screen... loads more beeps, and then into Basic XE 4.1

On NUC+:

(I tried with FujiNet and SIO2DSUB) Original Basic XE Cartridge in the NUC+

1) With FujiNet - mounted the same extension 4.11 disk via tnfsd.  Hit Option:  Starts to boot hear it reading disk lights (same as real hardware), then pause a couple beeps, then hangs.

2) With SUI2DSUB - mounted same extension 4.11 disk via SIOtoUSB AspeQt: (Turned off FujiNet)   Starts to boot hear it reading disk lights (same as real hardware), then pause a couple beeps, then hangs.

 

I have not tried my original 1050 drive with real Extensions disk with the NUC+... but I don't see the point as the real hardware with SIOtoUSB worked fine.   (I can do it if we want that verification, let me know... I'll have to pull the 1050 out of the box).   

 

Solving this one might need big brains: Like  @mrrobot and/or @drac030  as to why it's not continuing the load of the extensions. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by rsh

[rsh]

NUC+ with CART Basic XE boot with extension disk.

 

12 hours ago, rsh said:

NUC+ with CART Basic XE boot with extension disk.

 

I upgraded to latest FujiNet firmware last night and I'm still getting the strange thing via FujiNet press OPTION and the cartridge never boots.  At first I thought it was not switching to CART but now I think it is.

So I tried several tests with real hardware 130XE vs the NUC+.  And determined the NUC+ is not behaving like the real hardware.   I'm using the SIOtoUSB and mounted the BXE Extensions disk to drive one w/ AspeQt.

On Real Hardware:

   - Original BASIC XE cartridge, Boot hear it reading disk lights on usbtosio flash, then a pause, then displays Loading Extensions 4.11 screen... loads more beeps, and then into Basic XE 4.1

On NUC+:

(I tried with FujiNet and SIO2DSUB) Original Basic XE Cartridge in the NUC+

1) With FujiNet - mounted the same extension 4.11 disk via tnfsd.  Hit Option:  Starts to boot hear it reading disk lights (same as real hardware), then pause a couple beeps, then hangs.

2) With SUI2DSUB - mounted same extension 4.11 disk via SIOtoUSB AspeQt: (Turned off FujiNet)   Starts to boot hear it reading disk lights (same as real hardware), then pause a couple beeps, then hangs.

 

I have not tried my original 1050 drive with real Extensions disk with the NUC+... but I don't see the point as the real hardware with SIOtoUSB worked fine.   (I can do it if we want that verification, let me know... I'll have to pull the 1050 out of the box).   

 

Solving this one might need big brains: Like  @mrrobot and/or @drac030  as to why it's not continuing the load of the extensions. 

I will double check that I'm in 256K Compy mode.   But, I'm pretty sure it was.  Not sure if this would have any barring to make it hang, but worth a double check.

Edited July 19, 2022 by rsh

[Simply_Graham]

I wonder if this would work on the XEGS that the NUC is based on or would this have the same issues as when you tried with the 130XE.

Not many differences but perhaps enough, Wish you luck in getting this working.

[rsh]

On 7/19/2022 at 1:36 PM, Simply_Graham said:

I wonder if this would work on the XEGS that the NUC is based on or would this have the same issues as when you tried with the 130XE.

Not many differences but perhaps enough, Wish you luck in getting this working.

No issues with 130XE worked as it's supposed to.  The NUC+ has the problem.  I did verify I was in COMPY mode.   I assumed if you have a CARTRIDGE in the NUC+ it ignores all other OS setting for ALT+1, ALT+2,  ALT+~, CTL+ALT+~

but maybe it's not.   I will double check tonight to try and power the NUC+ up with CTL+ALT+~ (Stock XE)  maybe that is what I need for the Basic XE cartridge and Extension disk load. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by rsh

[+mytek]

2 hours ago, rsh said:

No issues with 130XE worked as it's supposed to.  The NUC+ has the problem.  I did verify I was in COMPY mode.   I assumed if you have a CARTRIDGE in the NUC+ it ignores all other OS setting for ALT+1, ALT+2,  ALT+~, CTL+ALT+~

but maybe it's not.   I will double check tonight to try and power the NUC+ up with CTL+ALT+~ (Stock XE)  maybe that is what I need for the Basic XE cartridge and Extension disk load. 

When I developed the 576NUC+ it was not intended to have cartridge support, and at least for a good part of that development there was no easy way to add a cartridge. Later when @Mr Robot created the Cart/FujiNet daughter board I did receive a bare board set, but never put it together since I needed a break from the NUC project and moved on to other things. So long story short I have no way to confirm what you are seeing.

 

However there was an update that occurred to the NUC firmware sometime after it's release. So if you go into Basic and enter ALT+F1 you should see what rev you are currently running. The newest is V1.4.

 

If you are running the previous firmware, there might be a few issues with persistence when it comes to the ALT+ ~,1,2,3,4 settings. I don't know if that would create the problems you are seeing, but it might.

 

LINK to latest 576NUC+ firmware.

 

[rsh]

5 hours ago, mytek said:

When I developed the 576NUC+ it was not intended to have cartridge support, and at least for a good part of that development there was no easy way to add a cartridge. Later when @Mr Robot created the Cart/FujiNet daughter board I did receive a bare board set, but never put it together since I needed a break from the NUC project and moved on to other things. So long story short I have no way to confirm what you are seeing.

 

However there was an update that occurred to the NUC firmware sometime after it's release. So if you go into Basic and enter ALT+F1 you should see what rev you are currently running. The newest is V1.4.

 

If you are running the previous firmware, there might be a few issues with persistence when it comes to the ALT+ ~,1,2,3,4 settings. I don't know if that would create the problems you are seeing, but it might.

 

LINK to latest 576NUC+ firmware.

 

I did confirm even doing CTL+ALT+~ it did not change it hangs after the initial load of the disk.  Where the real hardware shows the loading extension 4.11 screen and continues on.  Doing this with fujinet off.

I did ALT+F1:

Version:   TKIINUC v2.0

Date:       Feb 17, 2022

System:   576NUC+

 

** I think I have the latest... The VGATE was v1.4 and the NUC is v2.0... and date of the Nuc hex is 2-17-2022 matching mine.   Although the zip file is dated 2-18-2022..  

Edited July 21, 2022 by rsh

[rsh]

1 hour ago, rsh said:

I did confirm even doing CTL+ALT+~ it did not change it hangs after the initial load of the disk.  Where the real hardware shows the loading extension 4.11 screen and continues on.  Doing this with fujinet off.

I did ALT+F1:

Version:   TKIINUC v2.0

Date:       Feb 17, 2022

System:   576NUC+

 

** I think I have the latest... The VGATE was v1.4 and the NUC is v2.0... and date of the Nuc hex is 2-17-2022 matching mine.   Although the zip file is dated 2-18-2022..  

It definitely appears the NUC+ is doing something different than real hardware.   lol I always seem to find strange problems like these at work and now here ... I'm sure it's a simple fix, but hard to find.  OSS always has to be tricky..  I remember @drac030 .. In another thread talk about how Basic XE looks up the extension disk version at some offset and verifies and continues on.   Not sure if he could help pin point how the hardware/base loader code should behave but maybe.     

Edited July 21, 2022 by rsh

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, rsh said:

** I think I have the latest... The VGATE was v1.4 and the NUC is v2.0... and date of the Nuc hex is 2-17-2022 matching mine.   Although the zip file is dated 2-18-2022..

Yep you do. As you figured out I gave you the version number for the NUC V-Gate firmware by accident. So yes the current TKIINUC firmware is version 2.0. You are up to date

 

1 hour ago, rsh said:

I did confirm even doing CTL+ALT+~ it did not change it hangs after the initial load of the disk.  Where the real hardware shows the loading extension 4.11 screen and continues on. 

Sorry still can't help you since my system has no CART capabilities. So I have no way to start up with a Basic XE cart in place (although you're start-up sequence does appear to be correct). Hopefully someone with the CART daughter board can duplicate what you see happening, and perhaps give us a clue. But keep in mind that the NUC is an entirely different creature than a 130XE, so no guarantee that it can be made to work the same. As I stated earlier... once R&D really got under way the idea of a cart got dropped from the final design for the NUC. It's only because someone else insisted on making this happen that they created a way to add it in after the fact. If you go to my website, you'll notice that I don't have anything related to this as a download. Its not that I don't approve of the add-on, but it isn't mine to distribute or to support.

 

[+mytek]

Okay I gotta ask. How are you loading the Basic XE extension disk on the NUC? Is it a real physical floppy from a real floppy drive via SIO? Or is it via the built-in SD card on the FujiNet/CART daughter board?

 

You said you tested this on a 130XE and it all worked. What was used on that machine to load the disk?

 

Sorry for all the questions, but I think it can help to establish how the extension disk was loaded in each case, and if not the same then perhaps that is the issue.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by mytek

[rsh]

8 hours ago, mytek said:

Okay I gotta ask. How are you loading the Basic XE extension disk on the NUC? Is it a real physical floppy from a real floppy drive via SIO? Or is it via the built-in SD card on the FujiNet/CART daughter board?

 

You said you tested this on a 130XE and it all worked. What was used on that machine to load the disk?

 

Sorry for all the questions, but I think it can help to establish how the extension disk was loaded in each case, and if not the same then perhaps that is the issue.

 

Mounting disk:    I'm using the SIOtoUSB and mounted the BXE Extensions disk to D1 w/ AspeQt  (CTS at 19200 baud) from windows.  

Mounted this same way for both the 130XE and the NUC+ (with SUI2DSUB adaptor (no FUJINET))...  but I also tried with FujiNet same disk mounted via tnfs.  NUC+ appeared to behave the

same w/ or without FujiNet (which is good) but still hung, where 130XE loaded as expected.

 

I will pull my 1050 out of storage and test tonight with the original Basic XE extension disk to remove all other software comm/latency issues and see how it goes.  If you want I can try

and video it.  Don't know how big a file I can attach to forum.    

Edited July 21, 2022 by rsh

[rsh]

On 7/21/2022 at 1:14 AM, mytek said:

Okay I gotta ask. How are you loading the Basic XE extension disk on the NUC? Is it a real physical floppy from a real floppy drive via SIO? Or is it via the built-in SD card on the FujiNet/CART daughter board?

 

You said you tested this on a 130XE and it all worked. What was used on that machine to load the disk?

 

Sorry for all the questions, but I think it can help to establish how the extension disk was loaded in each case, and if not the same then perhaps that is the issue.

 

I ran the test using real 1050 and real Basic XE extension disk with the NUC+ and the result was the same.  Starts to boot hear it reading disk lights (same as real hardware), then pause a couple beeps, then hangs.

Something in the NUC+ is not switching back to check/run an address that the real hardware is doing.    The real hardware 800XL and 130XE load the extension disk the exact same way.  Only difference on 800XL is

you can't use the extend command for the extra 64K (banks) of memory that the 130XE has.    So the NUC+ is doing something different over both of those systems. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by rsh

[rsh]

NUC+ with CART Basic XE boot with extension disk.

 

@Mr Robot Any ideas what could be happening?   It would be nice to be able to use my cartridge as designed.  

 

On a side note:

Is there a way to get Basic XE to run with extension disk loaded not using the cartridge?  Has anyone done this?

[+mytek]

On 7/25/2022 at 6:28 AM, rsh said:

NUC+ with CART Basic XE boot with extension disk.

 

@Mr Robot Any ideas what could be happening?   It would be nice to be able to use my cartridge as designed.  

 

On a side note:

Is there a way to get Basic XE to run with extension disk loaded not using the cartridge?  Has anyone done this?

I think it only fair that @Mr Robot not be held accountable for the issues you are seeing, because his circuit for the Cart and the FujiNet are quite correct

 

However this doesn't rule out a problem with the 576NUC+'s reinterpreted XEGS OS and MMU manipulation by the TK-II aspect. The way that this all works is somewhat unconventional, and not an exact replication of an XEGS. With that said, after the last firmware update I've never run across any functionality problems myself, although as I mentioned earlier I don't have the Cart Board, so can't test in that same manner as you.

 

I am surprised though that someone with a Cart Board hasn't stepped forward to try to exactly duplicate what you are trying to do and report in.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by mytek

[rsh]

37 minutes ago, mytek said:

I think it only fair that @Mr Robot not be held accountable for the issues you are seeing, because his circuit for the Cart and the FujiNet are quite correct

 

However this doesn't rule out a problem with the 576NUC+'s reinterpreted XEGS OS and MMU manipulation by the TK-II aspect. The way that this all works is somewhat unconventional, and not an exact replication of an XEGS. With that said, after the last firmware update I've never run across any functionality problems myself, although as I mentioned earlier I don't have the Cart Board, so can't test in that  same manner as you.

 

I am surprised though that someone with a Cart Board hasn't stepped forward to try to exactly duplicate what you are trying to do and report in.

 

Absolutely!!! No accountability directed!   Just seeing if there is a solution.  It could not be hardware related... maybe memory related or a address check is all that is required.  The Basic XE manual explicitly states "Warnlng: BASIC XE w!Il not work with any 'translator' program, nor will it work with DOSXL.SUP or OurDOS if you use the extensions (because they try to use the same memory)."    The NUC+ is fantastic!   If there is an alternative way of loading Basic XE with Extensions I would love to know how...  As of now, I don't know the NUC+ well enough to load a cart image and a disk from other sources (like a SIDE3 - I think it can do it).    OSS didn't make it possible to load the extension after the fact.. only on boot for some reason.  

Edited July 26, 2022 by rsh

[+Stephen]

So I just tried my old 5-in-1 OSS cart (from @santosp).  It has BXE 4.1.  No matter how I power on the NUC (ALT+~, 1, 2, 3, 4) anything I type in immediate mode just locks up the machine.  Also, I had to turn the FujiNet off via the switch in the back, else this cart won't even boot.  It would just go right to the FujiNet loader.

 

Basic XL (1.03) seems to work fine.

[rsh]

19 hours ago, Stephen said:

So I just tried my old 5-in-1 OSS cart (from @santosp).  It has BXE 4.1.  No matter how I power on the NUC (ALT+~, 1, 2, 3, 4) anything I type in immediate mode just locks up the machine.  Also, I had to turn the FujiNet off via the switch in the back, else this cart won't even boot.  It would just go right to the FujiNet loader.

 

Basic XL (1.03) seems to work fine.

I had the same problem.  Make sure you got NUC+ firmware 2.0 and you have the latest FujiNet firmware.  After, I updated FujiNet some of those strange going straight to FujiNet goes away.  I have both the 4in1 and Original Basic XE cart and was able to get them to both boot normally (minus the extension disk ).   Now I have a strange thing with the NUC+ where it won't go into FujiNet on ALT+....    Seems like we need a ALT-F option that will boot and wait for the FujiNet to get it's wireless connection as powering off and back on rapidly there is a delay for the wifi to connect. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by rsh

[rsh]

Nuc+ cartriage guide bars left & right.  

 

This is for @Mr Robot or @mytek  I have a suggestion to the 3D printing of the cart slot.   The guide bars on the NUC+ are shaped like half an arrow head with a barb.   I recommend just making them flat no need for the barb.  Some of my cartridges are catching on those barbs.  Looking at the 130XE the guides are flat making a smooth insert and pull out....  I haven't pulled my 800XL out to inspect but my guess is they are flat as well or they corrected it with 130XE just for that same case. 

  800XL image from web.. looks flat as well

 

Just a thought if they are supposed to be flat then maybe I have a printed issue with mine.  I will inspect more closely tonight by eye.. I just used my finger and it felt like a barb. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by rsh

[+Stephen]

20 hours ago, Stephen said:

So I just tried my old 5-in-1 OSS cart (from @santosp).  It has BXE 4.1.  No matter how I power on the NUC (ALT+~, 1, 2, 3, 4) anything I type in immediate mode just locks up the machine.  Also, I had to turn the FujiNet off via the switch in the back, else this cart won't even boot.  It would just go right to the FujiNet loader.

 

Basic XL (1.03) seems to work fine.

I should state, that I have not tested to see if Basic XE 4.1 from this cart works on any of my other machines.

34 minutes ago, rsh said:

I had the same problem.  Make sure you got NUC+ firmware 2.0 and you have the latest FujiNet firmware.  After, I updated FujiNet some of those strange going straight to FujiNet goes away.  I have both the 4in1 and Original Basic XE cart and was able to get them to both boot normally (minus the extension disk ).   Now I have a strange thing with the NUC+ where it won't go into FujiNet on ALT+....    Seems like we need a ALT-F option that will boot and wait for the FujiNet to get it's wireless connection as powering off and back on rapidly there is a delay for the wifi to connect. 

I am definitely way out of date on the FujiNet firmware.

[+mytek]

2 hours ago, rsh said:

FujiNet on ALT+....    Seems like we need a ALT-F option that will boot and wait for the FujiNet to get it's wireless connection as powering off and back on rapidly there is a delay for the wifi to connect. 

Yeah if I could take what I know now and go back in time a couple of years this could have been done much better. The present 576NUC+ design does a power cycle every time you press an ALT+~,1,2,3,4 so that the new selection can be initialized, and media rebooted.

 

First of all there should have been an option to have FujiNet remained powered ON (via a switch or jumper). This is possible to do with a mod to the FN only daughter board. here's what that might look like...

 

 

Pin 1 on J2 is always ON +5V power, whereas Pin 2 = switched power.

 

Something similar should be possible on the Cart/FujiNet board as well.

 

Secondly I've learned a thing or two when I was developing my Muli-Slot 1200XL (blog post) that could have been done with the 576NUC+. In simple words it allows re-initialization without requiring a power cycle. Unfortunately it would be way too complex to apply this as a mod for the current NUC board, and actually would require a PIC chip with more I/O than the PIC16F1847 currently being used. But if I had known this during the NUC development phase it could have been painlessly applied at that time.

 

I don't know if the FN power mod will help in your case, but it's fairly simple to test.

 

[rsh]

1 hour ago, mytek said:

I don't know if the FN power mod will help in your case, but it's fairly simple to test.

 

I have noticed that after NUC+ is on for a while the wifi light will light up.  Then "sometimes doing an alt+1" it will go into FujiNet on recycle.  I never owned an external FujiNet device so maybe I just don't understand how it's suppose to work.  Before I go into the hardware....  Can you explain how it is suppose to know when to boot to FujiNet vs one of the Alt-~,1,2 options.  And when it knows to boot to cart vs fujinet (if FujiNet is on during boot)?   I just keep rebooting now until something works, not really understanding it.  

Edited July 27, 2022 by rsh

[+mytek]

The 576NUC+ basically mimics turning the power switch OFF then back ON like a standard Atari every time an ALT+~,1,2,3,4 keystroke is issued (if the system is already OFF, then it simply switches it ON). This is a power cycle: that will reinitialize the computer and usually cause a boot of whatever drive type device is on the SIO bus. Just prior to the NUC doing that power cycle, it'll first select the new Language/OS slot that matches the ALT+ key pressed by correctly addressing the EEPROM, and then follow that with a power cycle.

 

If FujiNet is powered-up with the computer (576NUC+ behavior):

1. If there are are other active SIO bootable drives on the SIO bus - they will take precedence and boot first, with FN staying in the background.
2. If there are no other active SIO bootable drives on the SIO bus - FujiNet will boot into its config screen, after first passing through a WiFi check.

If FujiNet is always powered-ON:

• Item 1 applies.
• Item 2 applies with one exception in that the WiFi check isn't needed since it should still be established. Boot to the config screen should be slightly faster.

 

Here's some good info from one of the FN creators...

 

1 hour ago, rsh said:

I have noticed that after NUC+ is on for a while the wifi light will light up.

That LED should always light up once WiFi has been established, and yes there will be a slight delay after either switching the NUC ON, or after a new ALT+... selection.

 

Not really much more to it then that.

 

If I got any of this wrong then someone more in the know feel free to correct me.

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by mytek

[rsh]

16 hours ago, mytek said:

 

 

If FujiNet is powered-up with the computer (576NUC+ behavior):

1. If there are are other active SIO bootable drives on the SIO bus - they will take precedence and boot first, with FN staying in the background.
2. If there are no other active SIO bootable drives on the SIO bus - FujiNet will boot into its config screen, after first passing through a WiFi check.

If FujiNet is always powered-ON:

• Item 1 applies.
• Item 2 applies with one exception in that the WiFi check isn't needed since it should still be established. Boot to the config screen should be slightly faster.

 

 

I played around with FujiNet last night with different carts/file loads and I think it's working well.  Seems to jump to FujiNet correctly, maybe I was switching back and forth too much and got something in a weird state before. 

I'm not so sure we need to do anything.   I did review all of that and now I understand much better how it works.  Thank you!

[rsh]

NUC+ with CART Basic XE boot with extension disk.

 

@mytek I was playing around with adding BASICXE.OSS on different DOS disks to see if the extensions would load.  During the process I realized that Basic XE was hanging even

without the extension disk.   It might not be a load context switch problem at all.   I turned off FujiNet inserted the original BXE CART and let it go to Basic XE ready prompt

(no extension load).  And you can type and hear the clicks (so I was assuming everything was peachy) but once I add a single line (e.g. 10 ? "AAA") and press enter it would hang. 

I re-seated the cartridge several times, I'm sure it was in correctly.  I will triple check that tonight. 

 

Can someone else confirm this? 

 

I ran out of time last night... but, I will also try this with my 4in1 as well.  It has the Basic XE 7.2 modified version on it (which is really 4.1 with a menu selection popup, this will load the 4.11 extensions

(130XE confirmed) as long as BASICXE.OSS is renamed to BASICXE.EXT on the disk.  I will try without extension load attempt and see if it hangs at the ready prompt as well. 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by rsh