Intellidiscs: Weekly development log

[+Ryan Witmer]

On 3/19/2021 at 11:45 AM, Cafeman said:

1. Please allow joystick button to also start the game.

I don't know, I'm not a big fan of this on the 5200.  It makes sense on the 2600/7800 where the reset/start button is on the console.

On 3/19/2021 at 11:45 AM, Cafeman said:

2. I like the Phaser Cat logo. 

This was my chance to finally use ANTIC mode F.  It works really well for black and white images and the 320 pixel resolution is awesome.  The image also compressed really well, I think it only takes up about 400 bytes.

On 3/19/2021 at 11:45 AM, Cafeman said:

4. You can't hit a guy after your disc rebounds?  Again, I am not familiar with the original game.  Would be a nice gameplay option. 

This is correct, and is how the Intellivision game works.  Changing this would be pretty difficult with the way the code is at this point.  I also mentioned way back in the first post on this thread that I really didn't want to alter the original game play any more than I had to.  That being said, I will be releasing the source code so maybe someone will be ambitious enough to try adding this.

On 3/19/2021 at 2:04 PM, vitoco said:

What I found annoying is that I had to select the controller again on each try, as it resets to the default one when the game is over.

I think you're right, and the menu should retain the last choice you made.  I will change this.

On 3/19/2021 at 2:21 PM, MrTrust said:

2.  Game is a little on the slow side, but I assume this is a limitation of the hardware.

It speeds up over time.  The first speed up is at 20,000 points, the second at 100,000.  This version is actually much faster paced than the original Intellivision game!

23 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

I also, noticed the diagonal throws were just not 45 degrees as well

OK, this was bothering me so I actually went and plotted it out.

 

 

On my emulator this looks fine.  I went and tried it again on my CRT and... yeah it is a little weird.  What I suspect is happening is that different displays have different spacing between scanlines, which can throw this off.  I think no matter what I do, it's going to be wrong on certain displays.

 

I've decided to use the diagonal shots in Berzerk as a baseline.  If I can match those, it'll have to do.

 

8 hours ago, mr_me said:

In tron deadly discs you have to teleport through the doors to get the recognizer to come out.  If you avoid doing that than the recognizer will come out every four rounds, I think, unless you have no open doors.  I think it's consistent.

Yeah, warping across the screen through the doors will call out out the recognizer.  For some reason, I got it into my head that this was the only way to make it show up, but I did some more goofing around with the Intellvision version and it definitely comes out on other occasions.  I haven't quite nailed down the rules for this, my gut feeling is that the chances of it appearing go up with the number of open doors.

 

Either way, my game's behavior is wrong.  Right now it only shows up if you pass through a door.  I need to fix this.

 

This morning I did a Twitch stream where I kicked ass at the game and fixed a few bugs.  There was one critical bug that I thought I fixed in yesterday's build, but it turns out I was wrong.  I fixed it this morning.  If you kill the last enemy on the screen while their disc is coming at you, and the block the disk, you will lock the game up and the next wave of enemies will never appear.  This was fixed this morning.

 

I took a picture of how awesome I was this morning but I somehow managed to screw up saving it.  Fortunately @vitoco grabbed a shot of the stream, so here's the current world record:

 

 

Of course, this score will be invalidated as soon as I fix more things, but whatever.

[+Mitch]

22 minutes ago, Ryan Witmer said:

I don't know, I'm not a big fan of this on the 5200.  It makes sense on the 2600/7800 where the reset/start button is on the console.

 

I think the reason why people want it is because of the start button failing on some people's 5200 controllers. It is not as big of an issue now a days as it was back in the '80s but it still can be a problem.

 

Mitch

[BIGHMW]

Hey @Ryan Witmer, Ray Jackson @BIGHMW, coming to you from Port Townsend, just a hop, skip and jump across the Bainbridge Ferry and up the Hood Canal Bridge away from you, I noticed you also, like myself have a mic set up near your PC, as I do. I myself use a Dell Inspiron laptop with Win7Pro and a vintage Sony ECM-737 for my mic attached to the mic jack and will soon be upgrading to an third-party webcam, you look good BTW, and yes I also, love this game. I have followed it from almost the get-go and am looking forward to the next build, in which we hope the diagonal shots bug will be ironed out.

 

I will be ordering a second Best-modded CX52 next week (along with a pair of Best-modded CX24 ProLine/PainLine controllers I also use) and already still own a 5200 controller holder in which I got when I bought both Space Dungeon and Robotron back in 1983-84, and then I'll try the twin-stick mode as well. Looking forward to the next build when it gets done, the game looks great I also, love the Phaser Cat logo and also the animation of the "IntelliDiscs" opening logo and think the Tron-like font was the right choice in both it and the "Game Over" were very well done, hopefully there'll maybe be a slight change in the score digits from the standard Atari 8-bit fonts to a more custom one, but I'll let you mull over it.

 

Perhaps I can provide some inspiration both for the score and text font by offering a download of the 5200 version of "Yar's Strike", converted (and improved, like Tide ) from the Atari A8 to the 5200 by @playsoft himself last year in which I still play today to look over, it looks kinda futuristic so it just might inspire you to do the same. Your game looks great and we'll see what happens with the next build soon.

 

Thanks,  

 

Ray Jackson.

Yar's Strike.bin

[+Cafeman]

Another thing I was confused by, do you get lives or is there any way to know how many more hits you can take before it is game over?

[MrTrust]

Dang.  I though my 615,750 this morning would have been a temporary record.  I feel like we need difficulty settings.  

 

It's the actual speed of the game that I was on about, it's that the guys fly on the y axis and crawl on the x, and it feels like it should be the other way around.

 

Keypad mode seems to be the best way to play, but it would be nice to have the same key that you used to throw the disc also recall the disc.  It's a little confusing trying to do a different key.

[+Philsan]

Cool demo, thanks!

 

If you need to change the font, here you'll find 1307 A8 fonts:

https://atariage.com/forums/topic/283198-public-domain-8x8-fonts/?do=findComment&comment=4118194

You can quickly view them with RECOIL viewer.

 

But I think you would prefer something like this:

https://www.dafont.com/tron.font

 

[phuzaxeman]

Ryan, great work here. 

 

I really enjoyed the game.  I like the details like the opening screen and the menu screen.

 

I like how you make the game exclusive for the 5200 controller.  You don't need to have the fire button start the game because we have the exclusive start button on the controller. The options for dual stick and keypad are excellent.  If I designed the game, I wouldn't have the berzerk style firing system but that's just me.

 

I also like the pace of the game.  It's very close to the intellivision version.  

 

The game feels a little easier than the intellivision.  Maybe its me.  I'm wondering what others think.

 

Finally, I'm looking forward to some music in this game (even if its a little) and the sound effects make use of the pokey chip.  The sound fillers were nice to get an idea.  

 

Really happy your game is coming out great.  Can't wait to order a complete package one day. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by phuzaxeman

[+Ryan Witmer]

On 3/20/2021 at 3:14 PM, BIGHMW said:

and then I'll try the twin-stick mode as well.

Twin stick isn't all that great, in my opinion.  I put it in because it seemed like a fun thing to do, but maybe you'll like it, and hey, if you don't then you have other options!

 

On 3/20/2021 at 3:19 PM, Cafeman said:

Another thing I was confused by, do you get lives or is there any way to know how many more hits you can take before it is game over?

 

Initially you can take three hits and you slow down after every hit.  Your movement speed tells you how much health you have left, the Intellvision veterans can probably tell you exactly how points are left just by walking a tiny bit.  Health recovers over time, when you pass through doors, and you get it all back between waves.  At 20,000 and 100,000 points you gain an additional health point and the game speeds up.

 

On 3/20/2021 at 3:42 PM, MrTrust said:

Keypad mode seems to be the best way to play, but it would be nice to have the same key that you used to throw the disc also recall the disc.  It's a little confusing trying to do a different key.

I get to use my favorite software development saying here.  The keypad mode works the way it does because the alternative is worse.

 

People often say that the 5200 sticks are poorly designed for players.  Well, they're poorly designed for programmers too!  Keypad input on the 5200 is bad.  Really bad.

 

You can check the state of the two trigger buttons anytime you want (well, the top button has some additional complications, but whatever) but you can't do this with the keypad.  The keypad tells you when a key is being pressed, and it doesn't shut up.  Basically, there's no way to distinguish between a key that's being held down and a key that's being pressed really fast.  There's also no way to tell when a key has actually been released, and you can't just get the state of the keypad.  This requires some workarounds.

 

Allowing the key you used to throw to also recall the disc is really tough.  You would need at minimum some kind of dead period after you threw the disc, but even then if you hold the button too long your disc would come right back.  This means that every disc throw would require you to make sure you let go of the button before you accidentally called your disc back.

 

Making you use a different key to recall the disc seemed like the best compromise.  I'm still messing with a few things in this area though, so maybe I can come up with something better, but it's pretty unlikely.

 

9 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

The game feels a little easier than the intellivision.  Maybe its me.  I'm wondering what others think.

It might be.  It's really hard for me to judge how hard the game is.  I'm thinking about increasing the enemy firing rate.  I might play with that a bit later this week.

 

I did some work this weekend and I have another demo here.  This one says "Single Player Test 2, 3/21/2021" toward the end of the file.  Here's what's changed in this build:

• Controller and recognizer design options are saved between games.
• Added some new recognizer entry logic.  The recognizer will now sometimes show up on its own without you going through the doors.  The odds of it appearing are based on the number of doors you have open.  I don't know close this is to the original, but it's a starting point.
• Adjusted the horizontal disc speeds for better angles.  This looks fine to me on my CRT now.
• Fixed a couple of very rare game killing bugs.

 

Here you go!

 

intellidiscs.bin

[BIGHMW]

I'll try it after the building-mandated 10:00 pm-8:00 am noise curfew ends this morning, and then I'll put in my input on her. BTW, I'll still be using the trigger mode on her as I don't yet have a second CX52 to try the twin stick mode yet. Can't wait to try her out.

 

Thanks, from across the Sound and up the Hood Canal Bridge from you,

 

Ray Jackson.

[+Ryan Witmer]

7 minutes ago, BIGHMW said:

IThanks, from across the Sound and up the Hood Canal Bridge from you,

Does it ever stop raining around here?

[BIGHMW]

Yeah, it does rain quite a bit up here,  

 

I just tried the new build, first game using trigger mode, and with the CX52 (5200) stick, 250 points, so, I decided to try something different, hooked up my CX24 (7800, digital) stick and my CX52 to my Redemption 5200 7800 controller interface and gave that a try, the next play, also using trigger mode, bang!!! 5100 points, big difference!!!

 

Conclusion, great game but would be even greater for those who own the Atari 8-bit lineup of computers or the XEGS like I also own as well, they would be SO stoked over this game, and, in trigger mode, they would be playing this one addictively for HOURS at a time, indeed this game would also be perfect for the 8-bit lineup, still some work needed for some of the diagonal shots but much better this time, especially when using either a Redemption or a Masterplay interface and a 2600/7800 stick while having the 5200 for the rest of the controls.

 

More specifics on the diagonal shots later, I was just so focused on keeping going that on some of those shots I didn't have the time to take notes on which specific diagonal angles needed to be worked on, I'll get to that later on, but much better. I also learned (and mastered) the art (if you will) of recalling a disc if I happen to miss the mark, so to speak, similar to what you can do in Gorf when you cancel a shot you know is going to miss your intended target, so great so far, keep it up @Ryan Witmer

 

Comin' 2 ya from across the Sound and up the Hood Canal Bridge here in PT,

 

Ray Jackson.

[BIGHMW]

Just rechecked the diagonal angles just a few minutes ago and found NO PROBLEMS. , they looked perfect to me so consider this game almost finished, what you want to do on the next build is up to you, but the diagonal angles are in order and they indeed are 45-degree angles, just right!!! This game is coming out terrific and I think that maybe Homesoft should port this for the 8-bit systems (400/800/XL/XE/XEGS), indeed the trigger (or Berzerk) mode was an excellent choice to include in the options, well done @Ryan Witmer!!!

 

Now I've gotta get ready to go to my evening (6:00-10:00 pm weeknights) shift just down the hill from me at Safeway here in Port Townsend, so until tomorrow, peace out bro.  

[phuzaxeman]

Ryan,

 

 So I tested out the latest version of the game and I really enjoyed the game.  It really has come a long way and I can see the game has evolved.

 

So if you start to get hit a lot, your guy starts to run slower?  Right?

 

One of the neat things I like about your game is the ease of controls using the keypad.  It is much easier to control than Intellivision.  Furthermore, I like how the guy is still running and able to fire at the same time (something Intellivision couldn't do).

 

If there is one issue I had was firing in dual stick mode.  I had a hard time centering the stick so it wouldn't fire.  I don't have that issue on Robotron or Space Dungeon.  I suggest to do your own comparisons with those games for reference.

 

Thanks for your work! 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by phuzaxeman

[BIGHMW]

I'll go on record to say I like the Berzerk-style firing (or Trigger mode) best, especially when using Redemption 5200 with my CX24 7800 stick attached to it as I find the keypad a little awkward to operate while using the joystick at the same time (maybe it'll work differently if I use the keypad on the 5200 stick spearate from the 7800 stick, we'll see), and as far as the dual stick mode I don't think I mught be able to control it as well after hearing what @phuzaxeman had to say.

 

If you ask me the keypad idea might work best if @edladdin would come through and finish that prototype Super 52 5200 controller he wanted to do up for all of us, its console style makes it easy to navigate the stick while using the onboard console keypad, much easier on it or the Wico setup than the stock CX52.

 

I just might make a mini-poll on this game and see what you fellow gamers think.

[phuzaxeman]

8 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

I'll go on record to say I like the Berzerk-style firing (or Trigger mode) best, especially when using Redemption 5200 with my CX24 7800 stick attached to it as I find the keypad a little awkward to operate while using the joystick at the same time (maybe it'll work differently if I use the keypad on the 5200 stick spearate from the 7800 stick, we'll see), and as far as the dual stick mode I don't think I mught be able to control it as well after hearing what @phuzaxeman had to say.

 

If you ask me the keypad idea might work best if @edladdin would come through and finish that prototype Super 52 5200 controller he wanted to do up for all of us, its console style makes it easy to navigate the stick while using the onboard console keypad, much easier on it or the Wico setup than the stock CX52.

 

I just might make a mini-poll on this game and see what you fellow gamers think.

This game pays homage to the original Tron Deadly Discs which uses the Intellivision keypad and disc.  Using the 5200 sticks and keypad is even better than the original. What made the original such a hit was also the control scheme using the keypad (ie., you can use the block on the keypad) and not the Berzerk traditional scheme. 

 

The 5200 keypad idea not only works, it works great.  And the people that don't like the keypad haven't played the original.  You don't need any other stick than the 5200 stick and Ryan does a great job utilizing the 5200 controller the way it was intended to be played (all in one).  I'm a 5200 purist and would never play the 5200 with adapters or other sticks.  However, there needs to be an adjustment made to make the dual stick work properly.  

Edited March 23, 2021 by phuzaxeman

[BIGHMW]

5 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

This game pays homage to the original Tron Deadly Discs which uses the Intellivision keypad and disc.  Using the 5200 sticks and keypad is even better than the original. What made the original such a hit was also the control scheme using the keypad (ie., you can use the block on the keypad) and not the Berzerk traditional scheme. 

 

The 5200 keypad idea not only works, it works great.  And the people that don't like the keypad haven't played the original.  You don't need any other stick than the 5200 stick and Ryan does a great job utilizing the 5200 controller the way it was intended to be played (all in one).  I'm a 5200 purist and would never play the 5200 with adapters or other sticks.  However, there needs to be an adjustment made to make the dual stick work properly.  

I also, had an Intellivision II back in the day (believe it or not I actually did!) and have played Tron Deadly Discs but the Intellivision keypad was easier to operate with the directional disc down below because the keypad was located above the disc (as opposed to the 5200 or ColecoVision stick and keypad combos which had the stick above) and I am right handed and used my right thumb to control the disc while using the keypad with my left hand. I found it difficult to do the same here with the CX52 controller because of its design, that's why I like the Berzerk-style mode best, at least for this version, but if it was the Intellivision with the way its controller was designed, then OG all the way!!!

[phuzaxeman]

41 minutes ago, BIGHMW said:

I also, had an Intellivision II back in the day (believe it or not I actually did!) and have played Tron Deadly Discs but the Intellivision keypad was easier to operate with the directional disc down below because the keypad was located above the disc (as opposed to the 5200 or ColecoVision stick and keypad combos which had the stick above) and I am right handed and used my right thumb to control the disc while using the keypad with my left hand. I found it difficult to do the same here with the CX52 controller because of its design, that's why I like the Berzerk-style mode best, at least for this version, but if it was the Intellivision with the way its controller was designed, then OG all the way!!!

If you've been playing the 5200 stick with classics like Star Raiders, Real Sports Baseball, and/or Soccer etc that utilize the keypad, the Intellidiscs is a breeze. Really appreciate Ryan for taking the time and using the keypad like the original. 

[phuzaxeman]

14 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

 

I just might make a mini-poll on this game and see what you fellow gamers think.

Why would you take a mini-poll on this game?  You are not the one designing this game. 

[MrTrust]

The recognizer change makes a difference.  For some reason, once I had all the doors open and didn't go through any of them, I could play seemingly indefinitely.  Not sure why it was that way, but my scores are nowhere near as good now.

Regarding the angles and speed: is the play field actually a rectangular room, or a rectangular projection of a square room?  I assume it's the latter, since the original is a projection of a square room, and the men are twice as wide on horizontally as they are vertically.  So, in that case, in order to throw the disc "45 degrees" in the game, that is, if you stand in the center of the room and hit key 3, your disc goes to the upper right hand corner of the room, the angle it should actually travel on the screen should be like 63.5 degrees or something.  Also, your guy should travel faster moving left/right and slower going up/down, but it's the other way around in the game.

If it's just a rectangular room, there probably was nothing wrong with the angles to begin with.

[BIGHMW]

1 hour ago, phuzaxeman said:

If you've been playing the 5200 stick with classics like Star Raiders, Real Sports Baseball, and/or Soccer etc that utilize the keypad, the Intellidiscs is a breeze. Really appreciate Ryan for taking the time and using the keypad like the original. 

Did play all three religiously in my high school youth (1983-84, Erikson Center), especially Star Raiders, and low and behold we not forget Space Shuttle and Rescue On Fractulus (they also utilize the keypad) but haven't played them in most recent years (try a couple of decades). I also played Defender knowing that the keypad functioned as the Hyperspace mode, it's just been a long time for me, maybe I'll get used to it again soon.

 

bTW I also appreciate Ryan putting in not only the OG control (keypad fire) version for the traditionalists but also the other firing options for those of us who may not be so used to it (quite yet).

[BIGHMW]

2 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Why would you take a mini-poll on this game?  You are not the one designing this game. 

I only wanted to see which disc-firing mode others use while playing this great game, that's all.

[MrTrust]

Got a few serious plays in today.  Almost broke a million.  Difficulty levels would help a lot.  Other than that, it's playing very nicely.

 

One weird thing I did experience.  I had a bunch of doors open, and I think I went through one.  Recognizer came out, and I think I got it before it closed any doors.  Then it came out again.  Got it again, but I think it got some doors closed.  Stood my guy in the center of the room, and the recognizer quickly appeared in the center of the room and disappeared, then another one came out like normal.

 

I was standing in the center, so when it blinked in and out, I was between its legs, so I'm not sure what would happen if it appeared and touched my guy.  I imagine that would be Game Over, and that would suck to have happen.

[+Ryan Witmer]

9 minutes ago, MrTrust said:

One weird thing I did experience.  I had a bunch of doors open, and I think I went through one.  Recognizer came out, and I think I got it before it closed any doors.  Then it came out again.  Got it again, but I think it got some doors closed.  Stood my guy in the center of the room, and the recognizer quickly appeared in the center of the room and disappeared, then another one came out like normal.

That's very strange, I've never seen anything like that.  Let me know if it happens again, I'll keep an eye out.

 

Just wanted to check in real quick because I've been really busy.  I got some more of the battle mode stuff done.  All four players can now block and shatter the other players' discs, and the scoring also works now.  Other than that, I've been working with some talented sound folks to get some sound effects and music done.  I'm still trying to get the code in place to support this, and I'm not sure how long that will take.

[+Ryan Witmer]

I just managed to reproduce this bug.  The recognizer shouldn't be able to show up back-to-back like that.  The old code handled this fine, but when I added the new recognizer entry condition this broke.  I'll be sure to get it fixed.  Thanks for catching that.

[BIGHMW]

@Ryan Witmer Any updates to share with all of us, this game is coming out great, also, are you ready for baseball season, it feels like it might just be time to fire up (and play) RealSports Baseball right about now as I am watching Opening Day on ESPN waiting for yours and my Mariners to face the Giants down south of me (and a short drive north from you) over at T-Mobile, although I won't be able to watch because 1) it's during my work (Safeway 6-10pm weeknights) and 2) I have Hulu and they won't pay Root Sports NW's asking price to carry their network so I'm f**ked.

 

But yes we're all looking forward to the next build, and speaking of RealSports Baseball, and the idea of playing it again (due mostly to it being baseball season), GO MARINERS!!!

Edited April 1, 2021 by BIGHMW