What computer would you recommend for people who are just getting into the hobby of retro computing?

[bluejay]

...And if live in Korea, Japan, or some other country where the MSX was popular I think it's a very good choice as well. They are pretty darn obscure in regions it wasn't very popular, but trust me, in places where it WAS popular, it's completely worth investing in, especially since in those places, most likely there aren't any Commodore or Atari systems, let alone good support for them.

[JamesD]

On 9/28/2020 at 1:57 PM, Bill Loguidice said:

 

To each their own, but as much as I like the Model 100/102/200, in my opinion there are too many hassles to work around and it's not something I'd ever recommend to a first-time retro computer user, especially not one with the points raised by the OP in the first post.

If you are going to make statements like this, it would help anyone wanting to get into retro computing if you would actually say what the hassles are so they can decide if it's an issue for them or not.
 

[desiv]

49 minutes ago, JamesD said:

If you are going to make statements like this, it would help anyone wanting to get into retro computing if you would actually say what the hassles are so they can decide if it's an issue for them or not.

I generally agree with Bill on lots, and I totally agree the Model T's aren't great intros for retro, mostly because of the lack of quality gaming on them, which is something I think a lot of people are looking for when they get (back) into retro.

But I don't see a lot of hassles in general with them.

 

They are generally tanks.  They just run.  (Although, like all older machines with internal batteries, you need to make sure it has been replaced.)

Some of them can have screen issues with those zebra stripes, but that doesn't seem to be the majority of them.  (Although I do wish someone would find some replacements for those...)  But all older computers have hardware that needs to be poked at.  The C64 has it's PLA (and SID) as known problematic parts.

 

As for usability, the Model T's are pretty easy to get into and use.

 

And that serial port on the back, with the proper cable, makes transferring software dead simple.  (Although it was easier in the XP days and before.  Hyperterm works GREAT and always has, but in Win10, I've had issues with other programs (Putty and TeraTerm).  Copied Hyperterm to the same machine, and again it works great.  This might be a Win10 driver issue tho, and possibly a 64-bit issue..)

But in general, you go into BASIC and load from the com port, and then on Hyperterm, you paste your program.  Simple.

 

Love my Model 100's...

 

But I don't think they are that complete retro package the OP is looking for..

 

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, JamesD said:

If you are going to make statements like this, it would help anyone wanting to get into retro computing if you would actually say what the hassles are so they can decide if it's an issue for them or not.
 

Do I have go into that type of detail for a casual discussion? I've had the whole series in the past in my collection and it just doesn't remotely fit categories 2 and 4 of the OPs original 8 categories, and I think fitting into a few of the other remaining 8 is a bit debatable too. I also don't see how a 40 character 8 line display is terribly appealing to a casual person looking to get into the retro computing hobby even if we put the focus on games and relative power aside.

 

Sure, it's retro cool or a bit hipster to write on a Tandy 100/102, and sure, you can get a certain type of cable and use a certain type of terminal program on your PC to transfer what you wrote, but how many people really want to do that for anything serious? It's certainly a non-zero number, but other than for kicks, I don't get the appeal for the vast majority of people based on how modern devices work. If the discussion were focused on getting a cool retro computer to do some light BASIC programming on, write casually on, and be on the portable side, sure the Tandy 100 series (and the Kyocera platform in general) would absolutely be in the discussion, as would other computers that simply don't meet the needs of a casual person wanting to get into retro computing with a gaming focus for the first time.

[Bill Loguidice]

23 hours ago, bluejay said:

...And if live in Korea, Japan, or some other country where the MSX was popular I think it's a very good choice as well. They are pretty darn obscure in regions it wasn't very popular, but trust me, in places where it WAS popular, it's completely worth investing in, especially since in those places, most likely there aren't any Commodore or Atari systems, let alone good support for them.

I've always been a fan of the MSX platform and the prior technology it was based on (in fact, I wrote an article for PC Gamer several years back about it). If you're an English speaker, I think you will have more challenges using the platform to its full potential, particularly once you get past the more limited MSX 1 stuff. It's definitely a great platform, though, and there's a lot to love about some of the cool designs they came out with in Japan for the MSX 2 and beyond computers. As you say, knowing the person's region can be important when discussing something like this.

[Hwlngmad]

Region definitely a factor when discussing this.  I definitely agree with you Bill.  For example, while an Atari ST and/or Commodore Amiga would be good choices, those seem to be hard to pick up and/or seem to be more expensive than if you are looking for them in the UK.

[desiv]

34 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

...but how many people really want to do that for anything serious?

This is why I go back to games/entertainment.

I could be wrong, but I think the appeal for retro for a lot (most) people is in the games arena, and that is where it can still shine.

 

I can fire up some games on some old systems and have just as much fun with them as I do with modern games that look and sound a trillion times better.

Ms PacMan doesn't get less fun to me because I have also played Crysis...    So I have fun, and I get that nostalgic feeling.  Win win..

 

But for productivity, I don't see retro in the equation personally.

I mean, I was happy (in that nostalgia way you can be happy) to load up AppleWorks on my //e with extra RAM running off of a virtual drive over serial with ADTPro.

Getting that set up was fun and I enjoyed that.

 

But I'm not going to type any work documents in AppleWorks.    Yes, I "could", but the fun in non-games with retro for me is in the setup, nostalgia, and/or doing something that mixes new and old tech.  It's not in continuing to use productivity software.

 

So, do I love my Model 100's?  Yep.  But what do I mostly use them for now?  Games. 

But that's me...

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, desiv said:

This is why I go back to games/entertainment.

I could be wrong, but I think the appeal for retro for a lot (most) people is in the games arena, and that is where it can still shine.

 

I can fire up some games on some old systems and have just as much fun with them as I do with modern games that look and sound a trillion times better.

Ms PacMan doesn't get less fun to me because I have also played Crysis...    So I have fun, and I get that nostalgic feeling.  Win win..

 

But for productivity, I don't see retro in the equation personally.

I mean, I was happy (in that nostalgia way you can be happy) to load up AppleWorks on my //e with extra RAM running off of a virtual drive over serial with ADTPro.

Getting that set up was fun and I enjoyed that.

 

But I'm not going to type any work documents in AppleWorks.    Yes, I "could", but the fun in non-games with retro for me is in the setup, nostalgia, and/or doing something that mixes new and old tech.  It's not in continuing to use productivity software.

 

So, do I love my Model 100's?  Yep.  But what do I mostly use them for now?  Games. 

But that's me...

I'm definitely biased when it comes to productivity and old computers. Like most of you, I lived through the 80s and 90s and used all kinds of classic computers for productivity purposes, although (programming aside) that was primarily word processing, desktop publishing, and, to a much lesser degree, spreadsheets and databases. I've lost a good share of work over those years due to buggy software, computer crashes, media corruption, etc. Once we reached the modern threshold of simultaneous local saves and cloud saves and automatic syncing across multiple computers, form factors, and other devices, I no longer had to worry about losing anything important ever again. In the rare instance where I accidentally delete something important, it's trivial to roll it back. So yeah, I definitely have some PTSD as it relates to using old computers and doing any type of serious (i.e., non-fun or "just to check it out") productivity work anymore. Between that and my livelihood depending upon delivery of content, my time, and reliability, again, I'm super biased. Naturally, if expectations or needs are lower, by all means, use an old computer for productivity (and some do - more power to them and their niche!).

I'm also firmly in the camp of using old computers for gaming first, hobby programming second, and miscellaneous usage and projects third. I don't even rate productivity there. Again, my bias.

I know the idea of using old computers for mostly gaming irks some people, but the fact that these decades old machines get used for ANYTHING is a minor miracle. And certainly using them to *gasp* have fun in a unique way is pretty darn cool in my opinion. I happily use the latest and greatest tech along with the vintage stuff. It's like my childhood tech-related dreams come true.

[Keatah]

46 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I know the idea of using old computers for mostly gaming irks some people, but the fact that these decades old machines get used for ANYTHING is a minor miracle.

This is true of so many non-gaming applications. Running a recipe organizer for real would have been a disaster. Imagine having to type everything in, and then retrieving it. Perhaps manage files. All on a precarious floppy. Imagine all the "computery stuff" you'd need to learn. And the 50 pounds of computer equipment you'd have to bring into the kitchen if you didn't have a printer. Same thing with balancing the checkbook. The manual data entry and slow retrieval strikes again. It's as tedious and monotonous as reading this one paragraph. So for practicality, the checkbook itself is convenient, tried and true, and just works. For recipe keeping, a simple box with cards or an expandable 3-ring cookbook works best because it's portable and everyone can access it instantly. Anywhere. Anytime. In fact I'd argue those two activities are best done the traditional way today even.

 

Big business record keeping worked on computers back then because most clerical work is tedious to begin with and the sheer volume of it overwhelms any physical filing system.

 

Word processing works the same way. Writing long papers and books generates a lot of data which is easily handled by a system. Word processing, for me, was practical and welcome as early as 1979. WP merges (merged) existing tech like displays, keyboards, and printers. All the while adding copious amounts of random access storage.  All those items have existed years prior to the microprocessor and home computer.

 

 

 

[Arnuphis]

Exactly. As much as I thought my C64, Disk Drive, MPS 801 Printer and Mini Office II were 'The Shizz' back in the day for word processing there is no way I would go back to that method. Not even for some misguided nostalgia. Retro is for fun and games.

[youxia]

On 9/29/2020 at 6:57 PM, bluejay said:

...And if live in Korea, Japan, or some other country where the MSX was popular I think it's a very good choice as well. They are pretty darn obscure in regions it wasn't very popular, but trust me, in places where it WAS popular, it's completely worth investing in, especially since in those places, most likely there aren't any Commodore or Atari systems, let alone good support for them.

This is not entirely true, same as the earlier statements that you should buy Spectrum or CPC "if you live in UK".

Here in Europe the latter are very popular across the whole continent. You can even buy add-ons for MSXs too. Most countries have some trusted people who fix them as well, should anything go wrong.

 

Not sure how it is in the USA, but I know many people buy A8 stuff from our sellers, so it's more of a question of delivery price.

[Bill Loguidice]

3 minutes ago, youxia said:

This is not entirely true, same as the earlier statements that you should buy Spectrum or CPC "if you live in UK".

Here in Europe the latter are very popular across the whole continent. You can even buy add-ons for MSXs too. Most countries have some trusted people who fix them as well, should anything go wrong.

 

Not sure how it is in the USA, but I know many people buy A8 stuff from our sellers, so it's more of a question of delivery price.

Again, the MSX series is a great platform, but, regardless of region, it's still not going to match up well with the top dogs like the C-64, ZX Spectrum, Atari 8-bit, Apple II, etc., in terms of depth, breadth, and quality of software and available add-ons and accessories. As nice as it is, you'd have a hard time convincing me the MSX belongs as a tier 1 system choice. It's definitely a great choice if you already had the platform in mind, but definitely not going in fresh to retro computing.

[Arnuphis]

15 minutes ago, youxia said:

This is not entirely true, same as the earlier statements that you should buy Spectrum or CPC "if you live in UK".

Here in Europe the latter are very popular across the whole continent. You can even buy add-ons for MSXs too. Most countries have some trusted people who fix them as well, should anything go wrong.

 

Not sure how it is in the USA, but I know many people buy A8 stuff from our sellers, so it's more of a question of delivery price.

Well it makes sense to buy Spectrum or CPC machines if you live in the UK as they have PAL displays and the PSUs are 220v so if you buy them in a region where that is not the standard then you have an extra hurdle to overcome. 

 

I am sure the MSX is a great machine but I suspect blind favoritism in the continued championing of it above a more objective view in what would would be a good choice for a person new to retro computing who wanted something to see what all the fuss was about. 

 

"Hi, I am of the generation that never had these retro computers. I want to get one to play with and see what they were like".

 

So which of the following is the answer that they would want to hear?

 

"Sure, there are these ones here (Apple/Atari/Commodore) that were popular and you can pick one up for next to nothing . They have tons of software and large communities. Plus there are many modern devices that allow you to access lots of software and modern TVs. All the popular games were made for them and its easy to get parts or repairs."

 

Or

 

"Well there are these computers that were popular in Japan mainly that tried to establish a common platform of compatibility and failed. Most people have never heard of them but I am sure they are tons of fun.  You can probably get one of you hunt around and expect to pay a bunch of money for them. If they don't work I hear there is a guy who can fix them."

[JamesD]

On 9/28/2020 at 2:23 PM, Arnuphis said:

At the end of the day you can spin permutations round and round but the best bang for your buck and best bet for an easy life will be a Commodore, Atari or Apple. It's the path of least resistance. Plus you will have access to modern solutions, technical support and the chat room won't be just you and some other guy. If you are in the UK then add ZX Spectrum to the list, maybe Amstrad. 

Apple for bang for the buck?   An Apple II system isn't going to be cheap unless you know someone.
One of the complaints about the CoCo 3 is it's expensive, yet most people are asking $200 for a regular old Apple IIe, or a "for parts" IIGS.
A lot of the IIe machines are even missing keys, so they need repairs.
Yeah there are cheaper machines, but the bidding is still underway.
One of the better B.I.N. prices I found was a IIGS for $120 + $40 shipping, and that's without a keyboard or mouse!
There is a IIGS with keyboard, mouse, drives... at $120 + $50 shipping, but that's just where the current bidding is at.
As for modern storage solutions, there are many options. 
I have a CFFA, and a CFFA 3000.  They are neat, but cheap they are not.  The last one was $140 + shipping or something like that. 
You can add a Floppy Emu to emulate an external floppy drive or hard disk (requires Unidisk support) but it's also $140 + shipping.
That's more than Commodore, Atari, or CoCo solutions by quite a bit.
The SDFloppy II is $82, but it only seems to emulate a floppy drive, and I'm not even sure it lets you organize multi-disk programs into their own directories.  The doc I downloaded on it is brief.

IF I were to recommend an Apple, I'd go with a IIe, or IIGS. 
These have the most options for upgrades, and he IIGS has all the new goodies such as new graphics modes, better sound, support for more RAM, 2.8MHz 65816 CPU, etc..
At one time there were a number of programs that didn't like the 65816 in the IIGS, but most of those have patched versions now.
It also has most of the needed I/O controllers built on the board instead of requiring cards you might have to add.
A later IIc or a IIc Plus would also be pretty good, and they also have most of the required I/O built in.
I say later IIc because of the added Unidisk support added in late 1985, and internal RAM expansion connector added in 1986. 
Later ones also reduce the number of RAM chips.  Look for a light grey colored machine for the IIc if you can.
If you buy a IIc, remember that it uses an external power supply which should be included or you'll have to buy one.
The IIc Plus is harder to come by, and will cost more, but it has a 4MHz CPU, 3.5" drive, and internal power supply.  I have one, it's a neat machine.
The drawbacks to the IIc, and IIc Plus are that it's more difficult to add upgrades, and you have fewer options.
 

[desiv]

3 minutes ago, JamesD said:

IF I were to recommend an Apple, I'd go with a IIe, or IIGS. 

Yeah, I agree there.  And I lean towards the //e there, but mostly because I'm not that familiar with the IIgs.

And one of the really nice points there is the audio (cassette) IN jack.

With a //e and that jack, you can run a LOT of games just from there using the Apple II Online Game Server.

For entry level, that can really keep the price down. (and composite video built in; don't even need to find/build a cable (other than a standard RCA cable))

You wouldn't technically need a floppy.  (Yeah, there is a lot you need a floppy, emulator, or storage solution for, but a surprising amount runs from that game server).

That being said, as a purest, I like floppy drives...

And while I prefer C64 games in general (I did grow up with one), the Apple II line has a great retro appeal...

BASIC (even without a floppy drive).  Lots of expansion/support (although those are more expensive as you pointed out).

Definitely a viable option, even tho it tends to cost more...

[bluejay]

Apple is certainly a more expensive way. But being rather business/education-ish than gaming-ish, a lot of games are underwhelming, especially on a monochrome monitor. The graphics are worse than a CGA DOS system in many ways, and as a lot of people have mentioned, is rather expensive. All in all, they're not bad, but there certainly are better computers to choose.

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, youxia said:

This is not entirely true, same as the earlier statements that you should buy Spectrum or CPC "if you live in UK".

Here in Europe the latter are very popular across the whole continent.

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this comment.  The MSX never reached the level of popularity in Ireland or the UK that it did elsewhere in Europe - in those countries, it was typically the ZX Spectrum, Commodore (VIC-20 or, later, the C64), and - specifically in the UK - Amstrad that saw the most sales success.

 

Even then, it's still country-by-country as to where the MSX was or was not popular.  The Dutch seemed to really take to them (likely due to Philips producing its own MSX range), as did France.  Sure, they absolutely were known and used on the Continent, but saying that they were popular across the entire continent is, I think, a little disproportionate to what the machines actually achieved in terms of sales.

[Keatah]

With Apple II there's so much more than the already-famous and extensive games library. Word processing was and is really practical on the system. And the instant Applesoft BASIC in ROM is good for 1st timers learning the logic of programming. Its interpreter/editor is snappy and feels like a baby PC in a roundabout way. And there's easy access to Assembly language too.

 

I also like how BASIC and DOS work together. It's like when I got the DISK II upgrade the DOS commands were seamlessly and magically integrated into BASIC. Into the whole essence of the machine. Applesoft BASIC + DOS are really well suited to the newcomer. IMHO much better than anything from Atari or Commodore. Biased? Well as a kid I got what I felt to be the most bang for the buck from the platform.

 

Getting an Apple II up and running today may be more expensive. But it will give that newcomer a nicely paced learning experience that can and will continue for years to come. Apple II is well known for supporting spontaneity. It has a vast canvas that encourages users to be creative and explore their ideas. Apple II will hold up pretty well into the future going forwards from today. It's brawny, brutish, and easy to work on. And of course very expandable.

 

 

[Keatah]

I don't believe CFFA3000 is currently the best modern solution for Apple II, mainly because it is no longer in production, and the $600+ pricetag for the ones that show up on ebay. It had a good run of thousands of units over the last decade, two decades if you count its predecessor.

 

Other floppy emulators have to be considered like the one from BMOW. Or wDrive.

https://www.bigmessowires.com/floppy-emu/

http://kboohk.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=55

 

I'm a big fan of ADTpro. Once setup and the workflow understood, a user can make real floppies from the tens of thousands of images available on Asimov. SuperSerialCard, serial cable, and USB serial port required, but readily available. Or a drive emulator and something like Copy II Plus would also work for making disks and images. And these same images work in PC-based emulators like AppleWin, MAME, and MicroM8. Emulators where you can use native Apple II utilities. Or if you like, use a PC-based tool like CiderPress.

 

There's really several different ways of transferring images and stuff back and forth between the PC (your portal to the web) and a vintage Apple II. And even more ways of working with and modifying disk images or making your own. Just CiderPress, AppleWin, and Copy II+, together make for a highly versatile utility set.

 

Using platform-native and PC-native tools and emulators together adds so much to the hobby. Imagine having all this support and infrastructure back in the day!

 

I don't know what's the exact equivalent of all this in the Atari and Commodore ecospheres, but I hear good things about the solutions available. I just know that with the Apple II there are many ways of accomplishing a task. And one of those options is bound to be appealing to a newcomer. Apple II ecosphere is like multiple puzzles whose pieces are interchangeable with each other. And depending how you put them together you can make multiple different images from the same set of pieces. All by intuition. Very rewarding and satisfying - especially if you discover stuff on your own.

 

Apple II is ready to provide that experience!

Edited September 30, 2020 by Keatah

[JamesD]

39 minutes ago, Keatah said:

With Apple II there's so much more than the already-famous and extensive games library. Word processing was and is really practical on the system. And the instant Applesoft BASIC in ROM is good for 1st timers learning the logic of programming. Its interpreter/editor is snappy and feels like a baby PC in a roundabout way. And there's easy access to Assembly language too.

 

I also like how BASIC and DOS work together. It's like when I got the DISK II upgrade the DOS commands were seamlessly and magically integrated into BASIC. Into the whole essence of the machine. Applesoft BASIC + DOS are really well suited to the newcomer. IMHO much better than anything from Atari or Commodore. Biased? Well as a kid I got what I felt to be the most bang for the buck from the platform.

 

Getting an Apple II up and running today may be more expensive. But it will give that newcomer a nicely paced learning experience that can and will continue for years to come. Apple II is well known for supporting spontaneity. It has a vast canvas that encourages users to be creative and explore their ideas. Apple II will hold up pretty well into the future going forwards from today. It's brawny, brutish, and easy to work on. And of course very expandable.

 

 

Word processing was and is practical on most of these systems, but I wouldn't use one instead of a modern PC.
Certain machines had more professional options than others for sure, and thanks to the Apple II 80 column support, it certainly has many good options.
I'd rate the CoCo ahead of the Atari or C64 in this category, but fans of those machines will argue otherwise.  One question... why use it for that other than just to try it?
The IIe requires a RAM expansion board if you wanted to use 80 columns for word processing, but the IIGS includes enough RAM out of the box.
The IIGS also lets you use the Mac like GUI if you so desire.
I can hear "But GEOS..." from some people already.  I've tried it, there's no contest.

As I said before, Applesoft BASIC *is* an extended BASIC, though it has fewer advanced features than the CoCo, Plus/4, C128, Amstrad, etc...
There are ZERO sound commands.  Well... you can BEEP but that's it.
As far as file I/O goes, TRS-80s, Commodores, and Atari's all have it, but I'd definitely put certain computers ahead of others in how file I/O is performed.
I never cared for the way DOS 3.3 is integrated into the Applesoft interpreter, but that's just my opinion.
I've never looked at ProDOS BASIC support, so I can't say anything about that.

I'd say the learning curve is similar to other extended BASICs, and there is a GLUT of books on the machine.
This is the one area where certain machines are head, and shoulders above the rest.
Apple II, C64, and Atari have a lot of books available. 
If you want to collect books, these are the top platforms.
In spite of that, I'd only buy a handful of them for any machine because there is so much duplication.

If I wanted a computer that would might be kept going almost indefinitely, a II+ would be one of the best choices due to the lack of custom chips, and common cheap replacements of almost everything in the design.
I think the keyboard controller and ROMs would be the only possible issues with it, and you can burn new eproms.
A Franklin Ace 1000 might even be better since several upgrades such as the language card, upper and lower case, etc... are built in.
It's somewhere between the II+, and IIe in features.
Just expect to fix the foam/foil in the keyboard, and good luck finding one with a color board.
 

18 minutes ago, Keatah said:

I don't believe CFFA3000 is currently the best modern solution for Apple II, mainly because it is no longer in production, and the $600+ pricetag for the ones that show up on ebay. It had a good run of thousands of units over the last decade, two decades if you count its predecessor.

 

Other floppy emulators have to be considered like the one from BMOW. Or wDrive.

https://www.bigmessowires.com/floppy-emu/

http://kboohk.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&path=59&product_id=55

 

I'm a big fan of ADTpro. Once setup and the workflow understood, a user can make real floppies from the tens of thousands of images available on Asimov. SuperSerialCard, serial cable, and USB serial port required, but readily available. Or a drive emulator and something like Copy II Plus would also work for making disks and images. And these same images work in PC-based emulators like AppleWin, MAME, and MicroM8. Emulators where you can use native Apple II utilities. Or if you like, use a PC-based tool like CiderPress.

 

There's really several different ways of transferring images and stuff back and forth between the PC (your portal to the web) and a vintage Apple II. And even more ways of working with and modifying disk images or making your own. Just CiderPress, AppleWin, and Copy II+, together make for a highly versatile utility set.

 

I don't know what's the exact equivalent of all this in the Atari and Commodore ecospheres, but I hear good things about the solutions available. I just know that with the Apple II there are many ways of accomplishing a task. And one of those options is bound to be appealing to a newcomer. Apple II ecosphere is like multiple puzzles whose pieces are interchangeable with each other. And depending how you put them together you can make multiple different images from the same set of pieces. All by intuition.

 

I don't care for disk options that don't allow some sort of hard drive like emulation, but that's just me. 
This is one of the reasons I suggested Unidisk support.  Non internal solutions still have to go through the floppy interface which is slow.
I mentioned the BMOW Floppy Emu btw.
There is another SD interface, and the source code, board layout, everything are provided.  But they don't have any boards for sale.  I forget what it's called.

One drive option I forgot is Reactive Micro's MicroDrive Turbo, an internal card that supports DMA, which should make it the fastest option available.
Since it uses an IDE connector, you *might* be able to use a cheap PC CF adapter that hooks to a card slot opening, though that would require some modification.
It's $75 to $95 depending on what options you order.
The one drawback, is that in doesn't emulate floppies.  The only internal hard drive / floppy drive card that supported floppy images was the CFFA 3000, and even it didn't support copy protected disks.
For that matter, I don't know if the external floppy emulators support copy protected disks, so people would have to do some research before buying.

CiderPress is excellent.  The previous version has some bugs, not sure if the latest fixed them or not.

I've had problems with AppleWin keeping consistent speed on the emulated machine, and intercepting SHIFT+PRINT SCREEN is really annoying.
Other than that, it works well.

[Bill Loguidice]

As was stated, an Apple IIe can be worth the nominal investment of a few hundred bucks if you can get one with 128K. The video output is standard composite that can work on almost any compatible display, and it's very easy to get all kinds of add-ons and accessories (many of them relatively inexpensive). You can even simply plug in a 3.5mm cable from your smartphone, tablet, or PC and easily and quickly load software straight from a website. While it's a shame the CFFA3000 is no longer available, there are plenty of other options these days, including ones that play WOZ disk images, which are EXACT duplicates of the original disks, unlike the typical cracked ROMs. It really is a great option if you don't mind often subpar audio-visuals in comparison to something like a C-64 or Atari 8-bit.

An Apple IIGS is OK, but it's a next level of cost and commitment if you want to use it as anything other than a straight up Apple II.

[Keatah]

I recently learned that wDrive and BMOW floppy emu support woz 1 & 2, edf, and nib format. BMOW is read only for those, IIRC. And wDrive can handle writing to some. I guess it's a matter of getting a disk into the appropriate format. I fully expect both to have upgraded firmware in the future that will write to those formats. And more.

 

IMHO the copy protection game is like a second game. 2'fer'1. The original game you play, then the game of trying to either copy or de-protect it. In today's world that still possible. Get the disk in A2R or WOZ, and use an emulator to crack it - has been done many times. Just another combination of tools.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Keatah

[JamesD]

36 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

As was stated, an Apple IIe can be worth the nominal investment of a few hundred bucks if you can get one with 128K. The video output is standard composite that can work on almost any compatible display, and it's very easy to get all kinds of add-ons and accessories (many of them relatively inexpensive). You can even simply plug in a 3.5mm cable from your smartphone, tablet, or PC and easily and quickly load software straight from a website. While it's a shame the CFFA3000 is no longer available, there are plenty of other options these days, including ones that play WOZ disk images, which are EXACT duplicates of the original disks, unlike the typical cracked ROMs. It really is a great option if you don't mind often subpar audio-visuals in comparison to something like a C-64 or Atari 8-bit.

An Apple IIGS is OK, but it's a next level of cost and commitment if you want to use it as anything other than a straight up Apple II.

Okay, just to be clear... a "few hundred bucks" is okay to buy an Apple IIe... but not a CoCo 3 setup?
I realize the asking prices for CoCo 3's currently listed on ebay are nuts, but if you ask on a facebook CoCo group you can probably pick one up for a much more reasonable price.
Some of the CoCo hoarders have dozens of CoCos they might be willing to let go of.

FWIW, ADTPro can be bootstrapped via a Super Serial Card, and you can use virtual serial drives on your modern computer. 
The Super Serial Card is built in to the IIGS, IIc Plus, IIc, Laser 128, etc... so a cassette interface isn't required for similar functionality.
No, you can't load games direct from the website, and you need a host computer, but it's still a cheap way to start without a drive.

FWIW, you can load software on any CoCo in a similar manner using Drivewire.  This explains it in detail.
https://classiccomputingandelectronics.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/drivewire-4-and-coco3-in-action/
PyDrivewire supports the CoCo, and also supports the MCX BASIC serial drive setup on the MC-10.

Seems odd to me that ADTPro uses the serial port, and the Apple Game server doesn't... or vice versa for that matter.
It also seems odd that there isn't a version of drivewire that uses the cassette interface, so you don't need 2 cables.
 

[desiv]

1 hour ago, JamesD said:

No, you can't load games direct from the website, and you need a host computer,

Not quite sure what you are saying there..

If you thought what Bill and I were implying was that the Apple II would connect to the internet by itself and then somehow download the game via audio... then.. yeah..  that's not how that works...

You do need a "host computer" (I kind of thought that was a given) although that can be a PC or phone or tablet.  Just about anything that can get to the site and has an audio jack.

But with any host device (I use my Android phone), I select a game I want to play, I type LOAD on the Apple II, I hit play on my phone, the game loads, and I can then play the game.  That feels like the game loading directly from that site to me...

I didn't need any floppy/hard drive emulators to buy.  No serial cables (Null, which version, etc) to buy.  No figuring out why the latest version of Java doesn't like the USB serial adapter I have.  Just an audio cable (3.5mm), of which I still have several.

 

Apple Game Server Online doesn't support serial, but it was inspired by a Java program that was serial.  Apple II Game Server.  Which is kind of still out there (in that you can still find it), but it's java is so old, it doesn't want to work with modern javas.

Also, ADTPro supports serial and audio both.

Edited October 1, 2020 by desiv

[Keatah]

2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

As was stated, an Apple IIe can be worth the nominal investment of a few hundred bucks if you can get one with 128K.

And even if the //e is a 64K model, the card that upgrades it to 128K/80Columns averages around $27 on ebay, with $18 for a low and $50 for a high. There are 4 or 5 of them available right now for under $25. Doing upgrades like so is part of the Apple II experience.

 

Quote

While it's a shame the CFFA3000 is no longer available, there are plenty of other options these days, including ones that play WOZ disk images, which are EXACT duplicates of the original disks, unlike the typical cracked ROMs.

A2R is preservation and reference quality. It goes much further than WOZ. A2R is the analog flux recording. It's what the drive head sees. WOZ is digital data after the drive processes everything. A2R is the format from which WOZ images are made. And if WOZ format is upgraded again, A2R would be the go-to source instead of re-reading the physical floppy. But A2R isn't as of yet supported by emulators or tools. And the files are huge, at +20MB per side. How about them smackers!

https://applesaucefdc.com/a2r/

https://applesaucefdc.com/woz/reference2/

 

I want to argue that cracked disks are just as important to Apple II history as anything original. A massive subculture arose around cracked software. Just the intro-screens are a big stink all by themselves. And I also want to argue that CS is more versatile than protected original disks. CS can be transferred around so much easier and is supported everywhere. Easier to get screenshots from, easier to cheat and train, easier to put on a vintage HDD. Back in the day I had (still have it) a Sider 10MB HDD, and you couldn't put protected stuff on it. But thanks to CS I had a nice set of 150-200 games going. Part of my lame-O arcade@home project.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Keatah