Doug_in_NC Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 I'm trying to get my newly purchased Side 3 working with my 800XL and U1MB, but with both the SD cards I have (a 2GB Sandisk and a 2GB PNY), when I run FDISK all I get is 'No APT devices found'. Is this an incompatibility with these cards, and if so does anyone have any recommendations for cards that do work? If that isn't the problem, what is? I have spent the last 2 hrs pulling what's left of my hair out, and got absolutely nowhere. I updated the U1MB firmware to 3.11RC, but I haven't been able to update the Side 3 firmware which the Loader reports is 3.10 because I can't access the card to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuf Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 Couple of things to try - in the U1MB turn on the PBI BIOS stuff. Not sure if that'll help but that's generally how you run it. I've used the 2 and 4mb Sandisks - had problems with them (although it could still detect the card) until FJC released some updates. Do you have any other way to get the updater running? You don't have to flash the card from it's own SD even tho it's recommended. Just make sure you set your U1MB back to vanilla memory settings so you don't have any conflicts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_in_NC Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 I have an SIO2SD, but I have so far only managed to get that to boot to the menu to load the S3Loader.xex when the Side3 isn't connected, which is naturally not very useful ? If you have any suggestions on which settings on the U1MB and Side 3 I should use to get them to cooperate, I would greatly appreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuf Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 I suppose you should confirm the cart even works. Can you disabled Spartados on the U1MB and enable the switch on the SIDE3 cart? If you boot up to Spartados (you'll see an SIDE3 bios message as it boots too I believe) then at least we'll know it's functioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_in_NC Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 If I switch off SpartaDos X on the U1MB reboot, hit L and go to the Side Loader I can then run SpartaDos X from there, but whether that is the one on the card or the U1MB I am not sure. They should both be the same version so SDX so it's not obvious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 The loader has no impact on whether the HDD works under SDX or any other DOS. If you have flashed the proper main BIOS and PBI BIOS to the U1MB, enabling the PBI HDD in the settings should allow FDISK to detect the hard disk. There is no SIDE3 loader version 3.10; what you are likely seeing is the loader built into the U1MB, because you haven't enabled the hard disk in the settings. Once the HDD is enabled, 'L' runs the loader on the cartridge rather than the one built into U1MB. You can then update the loader by placing the XEX on the SD card and launching it directly from the 'SIDE3 loader'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_in_NC Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 I had tried that. The problem is that it doesn't read the SD card. I have now managed to start the upgrade process for the Side 3 by booting it from the SIO2SD with the button held down on the Side 3. That asked me if I wanted to replace version 0.00 from 00/00/00 with version 0.29 from 29/12/20. It says it is "erasing sectors" and has been for a while. Hopefully that doesn't mean it is corrupting the firmware Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuf Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 1 minute ago, Doug_in_NC said: I had tried that. The problem is that it doesn't read the SD card. I have now managed to start the upgrade process for the Side 3 by booting it from the SIO2SD with the button held down on the Side 3. That asked me if I wanted to replace version 0.00 from 00/00/00 with version 0.29 from 29/12/20. It says it is "erasing sectors" and has been for a while. Hopefully that doesn't mean it is corrupting the firmware If it gets stuck erasing sectors it probably means you ran the updater with a bunch of stuff in memory that'll conflict with it. The fix for this is to put the updater on a card and run it from the SIDE3 - but we know you can't do this quite yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 11 minutes ago, Doug_in_NC said: I had tried that. The problem is that it doesn't read the SD card. I have now managed to start the upgrade process for the Side 3 by booting it from the SIO2SD with the button held down on the Side 3. That asked me if I wanted to replace version 0.00 from 00/00/00 with version 0.29 from 29/12/20. It says it is "erasing sectors" and has been for a while. Hopefully that doesn't mean it is corrupting the firmware Be sure that you updated the PBI BIOS, in that case. It should report 'U1MB SIDE3 PBI BIOS' or words to that effect when you boot SDX from the U1MB. Wrong PBI BIOS is the most logical explanation. The update process is not working (and reporting nonsense current version data) because there is a ROM in the way of the cartridge. The safest way to update using SIO2SD is by turning off SDX and the PBI HDD on the U1MB, and booting SDX from the SIDE3 cartridge. Launch the XEX there and you should be good. I still have to update the documentation for all this stuff; this is proving a monumental task after weeks working on the firmware itself, but hopefully a written reference for these comparartively new tools will be helpful. To eliminate issues with the SD card itself and ensure you are running the correct loader regardless of any other settings, disable SDX and the PBI HDD on the U1MB and power up the machine with the SIDE3 switch in the 'up' (loader) position and see what happens. The loader should automatically start and read the contents of your SD card. It would be worth noting the results of this simple test. Once you know the card is readable, you can update the loader directly from the FAT partition by starting it from the SIDE3 loader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_in_NC Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 Yes I have the Side 3 version of the BIOS, I installed that yesterday. The result of switching off SDX and PBI in U1MB and booting with the switch up is a black screen, which doesn't look very promising. If I keep to those settings but boot with Help pressed and then exit I can chose the loader but it says "no media". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Doug_in_NC said: Yes I have the Side 3 version of the BIOS OK. I'm not trying to be a pedant, but I assume you mean BIOS and PBI BIOS. You need the SIDE3 version of both. In any case, I've seen the boot to black screen thing before and it's not a software issue. It can't be a bad flash either if you're able to start the loader intermittently or by other methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_in_NC Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 Yes, I updated both Ok, if it isn't software, do you have an idea what it might be? I don't want to send it back and then find out the Side 3 is fine but my 800XL is causing the issues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Doug_in_NC said: Ok, if it isn't software, do you have an idea what it might be? I don't want to jump the gun, since there seems to be a fair amount of uncertainty regarding settings and what they do, but I have so far had two machines here which required 74LS08 to be replaced before they would even 'see' the SIDE3 cartridge or allow it to function properly. Symptoms included black screen on power-up, booting as if there was no cartridge present, or intermittent booting of the loader but no or intermittent access to the SD card. Edited January 20, 2021 by flashjazzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_in_NC Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 I can give that a go. By total coincidence, those are the only loose chips of any sort that I have in my possession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 Nice. In one case, replacing it with 74F08 fixed the problem, but in another instance, a.n. other 74LS08 was sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_in_NC Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 Typical. It's soldered in on this board. I will have a go at it at the weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_in_NC Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 I finally got my 2nd 800XL (stock) working and the SIDE3 appears to work flawlessly on that one. Unfortunately after an hour or so of trying, I was unable to remove the 74LS08 from the one with the U1MB, so I just put more solder back on the contacts and verified the machine still worked. I was only armed with a soldering iron and braid, but I guess someone with more sophisticated kit and/or more experience than me would have succeeded, so if anyone has any suggestions on desoldering I would appreciate them I have to say this is rather frustrating. Without the extra memory, the Side 3 can’t be used to it’s full potential, and without a Side the u1MB can’t either. Ah well, such is life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 If you can hang fire, there may be an FPGA solution in the offing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_in_NC Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 Sounds promising! For now, I’ve ordered a solder sucker (not one of the fancy ones that are popular on YouTube channels, just a basic one) so I can give it another go at getting the 74LS08 out. I figured it’s probably something useful to have anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 There's absolutely no reason one should have to modify the host machine just to get the thing to work. I say this having done exactly that on a few machines, but only because no alternative course of action existed and it was supposed there was no problem with the timing on the cart. The main obstacle to delivery would probably be ensuring the deployment tool is reliable, but I regard this as a priority matter since I am getting pretty sick and tired of dealing with support emails concerning flaky SIDE3 behaviour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_in_NC Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) I’m not sure this is a uniquely Side 3 issue, or at least not on my machine. I have a Side 2 which appeared to have corrupted firmware - random odd characters on the screen, couldn’t access the CF card etc, and no way to sort it out without getting a programmer and reflashing it. I checked that one in the stock 800XL and it seems to work properly there too. I have tried with 2 original PSUs and a modern one from The Brewing Academy and that makes no difference, so it isn’t lack of power. I have some normal Atari game cartridges and those work flawlessly on the modded machine. Edited January 24, 2021 by Doug_in_NC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Doug_in_NC said: I’m not sure this is a uniquely Side 3 issue, or at least not on my machine. It's definitely wise to use pragmatic troubleshooting methods to try and narrow down the problems, but the more known issues there are floating around, the more difficult this becomes. The machines I referenced above were a mixture of stock and upgraded (U1MB, etc) Ataris which worked with SIDE2 but not SIDE3. Once 74LS08 was replaced, SIDE3 worked. But there's also one recently completed 600XL which turned out so well that the owner allowed me to hang on to it over Christmas so that I could complete the Sophia 2 plugin for U1MB. It was so solid and reliable (I tested it with the owner's SIDE3 cartridge right on the desk here) that I flashed U1MB updates to it for two weeks or so. But once it arrived home, suddenly SIDE3 is acting up with the display jumping around, etc. We appear to have eliminated problems on the machine (damage in transit, etc), and all that's left is the SIDE3 cartridge and the Lotharek PSU that the owner is using. Who knows if regulated vs. switching PSU makes any difference here? Who knows what other environmental factors exist? Once a potential culprit is identified (say, Phi2 cycle on the cart) and dealt with, at least we remove one variable, even the if all issues are not immediately fixed. It's completely demoralising when a machine I would have happily kept here and used every day for development exhibits all kinds of random behaviour when it's reunited with the owner. Edited January 24, 2021 by flashjazzcat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 6 hours ago, Doug_in_NC said: so I can give it another go at getting the 74LS08 out. The 74LS08 isn't an expensive chip(only $0.66@Mouser.com with over 15000 in stock), if you don't mind destroying it you could cut off all the legs and desolder them individually. This is the method I recommend for removing bad RAM chips from an XE circuit board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_in_NC Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 Yes, I have a pack of 10 of them that didn’t cost a whole lot. I’m not bothered about destroying the existing chip, but there isn’t much space between the chip and its neighbors to get my wire cutters in to cut the legs and I don’t want to damage anything else while I try to get it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 10 minutes ago, Doug_in_NC said: Yes, I have a pack of 10 of them that didn’t cost a whole lot. I’m not bothered about destroying the existing chip, but there isn’t much space between the chip and its neighbors to get my wire cutters in to cut the legs and I don’t want to damage anything else while I try to get it out. You don't have to reach down near the PCB, when I was replacing bad RAM in a 130XE I cut the legs at the top where they connect to the chip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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