Could the 5200 have succeeded?

[phuzaxeman]

On 3/11/2022 at 8:41 AM, zzip said:

The 400/800 were not that uncommon.   Maybe Kmart didn't sell them before 83, but other major retailers did.   I remember even seeing the short-lived 1200XLs on display at major department stores

Our family lived in Houston and Cleveland and had never seen the 800 in 1982.  We did see the 800xl in 1984 and that's when we got our first 8bit at Sears. 

[+Stephen]

24 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

Our family lived in Houston and Cleveland and had never seen the 800 in 1982.  We did see the 800xl in 1984 and that's when we got our first 8bit at Sears. 

Odd - I was not even an hour south of Cleveland growing up.  I got a 400 with b-key in late 1982.  I don't know where mom & dad bought it.  Rubber City Atari was a pretty large store in Akron during the 80s, but I don't know when it  opened.  Dad had a 2600 since pretty much release day so I guess he was just up on that stuff.

[phuzaxeman]

28 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Odd - I was not even an hour south of Cleveland growing up.  I got a 400 with b-key in late 1982.  I don't know where mom & dad bought it.  Rubber City Atari was a pretty large store in Akron during the 80s, but I don't know when it  opened.  Dad had a 2600 since pretty much release day so I guess he was just up on that stuff.

I was 30m north east of cleveland.  We even had 4 malls to choose from:  Richmond, Great Lakes, Mentor, and Tanglewood Mall.  None had an Atari 800 in 82. If you think about how many 8bit were sold in its 79-91 existence, Atari didn't sell that many (<3million).  5200 was from 82-84 and outsold (1 million) the 7800, Jaguar, and 8bit avg/per year despite not living up to the 2600 hype. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by phuzaxeman

[ymike673]

Living in New York I knew all about the 400/800. But they were more expensive than the 5200 and at time I did not even know what to do with a computer besides playing games. And there were rumors that there could be a keyboard for the 5200 eventually. So I bought big Sexy with a Missile Command cartridge which played great with the 5200 joy sticks. Missile Command really should have been the pack in game. 

[BIGHMW]

Agreed with on Missile Command being the (should've been) packed in game, yeah Super Breakout was OK but when I got Big Sexy on my 17th Birthday Missile Command was the extra game I got that night, like I said earlier on. I played it that first night until like 1:00 am (and on a school night at that too!!!, I just turned 17) and it was fine with the analog controllers and even tested it with my Trak-Ball (in which I also got that night). That was why the 5200 was supplied with analog controllers, because of their precise pinpoint 360-degree direction control as opposed to an 8-way stick like the 400/800 was, huge difference!!! That and also it responded fast as opposed to having to wait to get to a certain spot like with the digital sticks. Super Breakout was the same way, precise and speed-sensitive too!!! Also, the ergonomics of how that controller felt in my hand, almost contoured to it, the same design would be utilized in the ProLine/Painline CX24 7800 stick as well (I don't seem to have any problems with them), in fact I use both the CX52 5200 and CX24 7800 sticks with my Redemption 5200 7800 adapter and since I also own a ColecoVision I can tell you from experience that I actually prefer the 5200/7800 controllers over the stock C-V sticks anytime, the shafts on the Atari sticks are longer and better feeling than the stubby, disc-topped ones on the Coleco sticks, they all have dual fire buttons and I hope someone comes up with a Y-cord so I can utilize the CX24 sticks on Coleco with (not one!) both fire buttons for different actions.

[schuwalker]

I think I'll chime in with the 200th post on this thread with my 2 cents on this [emoji4] .
 
 
Atari at that time had the best titles, all the hits, while ColecoVision had mostly games that were flops in the arcade, and at that time, that, drew buyers. Not even the fact that Big Sexy was packed with Super Breakout as opposed to the C-V having Donkey Kong could deter me.
 
 
 

[schuwalker]

Screwed that up….

I would say flops would be the wrong terminology, lesser known would be more appropriate. Comparing companies like Exidy and Universal to Atari is a little unfair. Atari was pumping out 5k run out of most of their catalog, the latter y would be around 1k.

I loved the fact Colecovision did tackle some of these lesser known arcade titles compared to releasing the same game over again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BIGHMW]

You're right, I DID use the wrong terminology, but, the guys at Coleco were so savvy at marketing their lineup of lesser-known titles that they became hits on ColecoVision and drew interest for the original arcade versions of those same games, in fact it was ColecoVision that introduced me to games like Space Fury, Pepper II, CosmIc Avenger, Mouse Trap, and many others I did not know of before. It's because of these (still) exclusive titles not found on any Atari system that convinced me to get a C-V (my second,  the other one I had in the early 90s I picked up for 10 bucks at a thrift store back when you could find them there) to go along with my 5200 just a few weeks ago, having played all these almost 1,000 titles on both systems since 1983 at a friend's house, is good enough for me nowadays, they both had their share of loyal fans and players BITD, and still do today. I'm proud to own both.

[phuzaxeman]

11 hours ago, schuwalker said:

Screwed that up….

I would say flops would be the wrong terminology, lesser known would be more appropriate. Comparing companies like Exidy and Universal to Atari is a little unfair. Atari was pumping out 5k run out of most of their catalog, the latter y would be around 1k.

I loved the fact Colecovision did tackle some of these lesser known arcade titles compared to releasing the same game over again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Colecovision hit it big with scoring Donkey Kong as a pack in game. I love Super Breakout.  It's still one of my favorites.  But not everyone likes it.  Putting Galaxian, Defender, or Missile Command as a pack in game would have helped a lot but still would have not saved the 5200.  The market was already changing with the NES or Sega around the corner.

[Keatah]

On 3/11/2022 at 6:09 PM, BIGHMW said:

Atari at that time had the best titles, all the hits, while ColecoVision had mostly games that were flops in the arcade, and at that time, that, drew buyers. Not even the fact that Big Sexy was packed with Super Breakout as opposed to the C-V having Donkey Kong could deter me.

The Apple II was one of my first computer/console setups. And we learned quickly that pack-ins didn't matter. The Apple II by itself came with no software. You got a few things with the Family System or the Disk II subsystem package. but nothing with the console. And thus we learned the value and variety and awesomeness was in 3rd party software purchased down the road. Pack-ins were totally irrelevant. And when something did come with a pack-in, it was usually pretty lame. Excepting DonkeyKong on the CV - that was a system seller!

 

I was happy to see some of the lesser arcades show up on CV. There's really only so much of the Atari hits a kid could play before wanting more. And CV fit the bill straight away. Zaxxon. SpaceFury. Pepper II. Those were the hits that Atari "refused" to publish. For whatever reasons. Sure they were valid for Atari. But we lil'brats didn't know anything about licensing then. Just gimme the GaMeZes!

 

And with all the ports going and everything being available on the 8-bit computers, no one lacked for "anything Atari." Everything "Atari" was everywhere. Saturation point even.

[zzip]

On 3/12/2022 at 5:18 PM, phuzaxeman said:

Our family lived in Houston and Cleveland and had never seen the 800 in 1982.  We did see the 800xl in 1984 and that's when we got our first 8bit at Sears. 

83 is about when the home computer craze really took off.   It was rarer to see any computer in regular department stores before then.   But I did see them from time to time as well as the 1200XL.   Also they were in the Christmas catalogs for the major retailers.  So I was well aware of them.   Also saw ads for them on TV.     The 800 would have been too expensive for a place like Kmart, but the cost-reduced 600XL/800XL were designed to compete against the C64 and were more widely available.

 

14 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Colecovision hit it big with scoring Donkey Kong as a pack in game. I love Super Breakout.  It's still one of my favorites.  But not everyone likes it.  Putting Galaxian, Defender, or Missile Command as a pack in game would have helped a lot but still would have not saved the 5200.  The market was already changing with the NES or Sega around the corner.

NES and Sega weren't that close behind.   It was 86/87 before they started to take off in the US.    The 5200 could have had a good 5 year lifespan before it was threatened by them (which is about how long the 2600 was on the market before the 5200 showed up)

8 hours ago, Keatah said:

And CV fit the bill straight away. Zaxxon. SpaceFury. Pepper II. Those were the hits that Atari "refused" to publish.

There were so many companies competing to secure home rights.   Atari certainly published lesser known games like Vanguard, Space Dungeon, Pengo,   plus lesser known games from their own arcade portfolio.

[phuzaxeman]

13 minutes ago, zzip said:

83 is about when the home computer craze really took off.   It was rarer to see any computer in regular department stores before then.   But I did see them from time to time as well as the 1200XL.   Also they were in the Christmas catalogs for the major retailers.  So I was well aware of them.   Also saw ads for them on TV.     The 800 would have been too expensive for a place like Kmart, but the cost-reduced 600XL/800XL were designed to compete against the C64 and were more widely available.

 

NES and Sega weren't that close behind.   It was 86/87 before they started to take off in the US.    The 5200 could have had a good 5 year lifespan before it was threatened by them (which is about how long the 2600 was on the market before the 5200 showed up)

There were so many companies competing to secure home rights.   Atari certainly published lesser known games like Vanguard, Space Dungeon, Pengo,   plus lesser known games from their own arcade portfolio.

There's no way the 5200 could have lived up to 1987 with a 5 year life span.  The 7800 was already in plans to launch.  Also, there were stores in the US that were already selling the NES in 1985. 

[Flojomojo]

If the 5200 were made with a smaller case, better controllers, and more games, would it even be a 5200 anymore?

[zzip]

1 hour ago, phuzaxeman said:

There's no way the 5200 could have lived up to 1987 with a 5 year life span.  The 7800 was already in plans to launch.  Also, there were stores in the US that were already selling the NES in 1985. 

The idea to launch the 7800 so close on the tail of 5200 was dumb.  It angered many Atari loyalists.   A better-managed Atari would have fixed 5200 issues and kept it viable for a minimum of 4/5 years at which point they'd replace it with next-gen  system (something better than 7800 or XEGS, and something that should've been an NES killer)

 

Yes NES was on sale in 85.   A better managed Atari would have fought them tooth and nail for market dominance, similar to what they did against Mattel and Coleco.   Instead Atari focused mostly on ST and the computer lines in those crucial years and let Nintendo have a free ride.

[youxia]

Ah, if only Atari had a box with some better chips in it... But didn't they, in 1993? Didn't do them much good though.

 

NES was a paradigm shifter, because it had introduced a whole new wave of Japanese games, and gameplay styles, headed by absolutely killer franchises, and accompanied by exclusivity deals. This is not something you can fight with just "better management" and fixing hardware mishaps.

[zzip]

33 minutes ago, youxia said:

Ah, if only Atari had a box with some better chips in it... But didn't they, in 1993? Didn't do them much good though.

 

NES was a paradigm shifter, because it had introduced a whole new wave of Japanese games, and gameplay styles, headed by absolutely killer franchises, and accompanied by exclusivity deals. This is not something you can fight with just "better management" and fixing hardware mishaps.

Hardware doesn't matter as much as games.   If Atari post-1984 had a games marketing department that was on top of industry trends, they would have understood where things were heading and developed/licensed games to counter what Nintendo was producing.   That's distinctly different from the Tramiel approach of "lets see what games we already have in inventory and sell them for less"

 

Prior to 1984, Atari Marketing showed much more savvy, they knew arcade games where the most important things and ensured Atari platforms had most of the popular ones.  Post-sale, Atari marketing was nothing like this again.

 

Not saying Atari would have necessarily beaten Nintendo in the long run with this approach, but they would have at least given them a run for their money and maybe stopped some of Nintendo's heavy-handed tactics as well.

 

Jaguar failed because Atari lost their marketing game in this era.   They started losing mindshare that was much harder to win back down the road.

[+GoldLeader]

3 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

There's no way the 5200 could have lived up to 1987 with a 5 year life span.  The 7800 was already in plans to launch.  Also, there were stores in the US that were already selling the NES in 1985. 

 

1 hour ago, zzip said:

The idea to launch the 7800 so close on the tail of 5200 was dumb.  It angered many Atari loyalists.   A better-managed Atari would have fixed 5200 issues and kept it viable for a minimum of 4/5 years at which point they'd replace it with next-gen  system (something better than 7800 or XEGS, and something that should've been an NES killer)

 

Yes NES was on sale in 85.   A better managed Atari would have fought them tooth and nail for market dominance, similar to what they did against Mattel and Coleco.   Instead Atari focused mostly on ST and the computer lines in those crucial years and let Nintendo have a free ride.

 

NES in the U.S. in '85?     

 

B A R E L Y ! ! !

 

 

Technically, it was there for a select, tiny, few who happened by that tiny handful of stores...And Only within the test market cities...

 

Has anyone ever even met someone who knew about the NES in 1985 who didn't live in the test market?

 

 

[zzip]

1 minute ago, GoldLeader said:

Has anyone ever even met someone who knew about the NES in 1985 who didn't live in the test market?

I didn't know anyone who had one until about 88/89 when suddenly everyone had one!

 

It was not an overnight success by any means.

[+GoldLeader]

4 minutes ago, zzip said:

I didn't know anyone who had one until about 88/89 when suddenly everyone had one!

 

It was not an overnight success by any means.

 

Exactly right!   I can't remember if I got mine in '87 or '88, but I Absolutely felt like an early adopter and we all spread the word,...Pretty soon friends were buying them, then by '89 or '90,  they were ubiquitous...

 

 

Not saying everybody experienced it the same way, ... And,  I do know technically they were on sale earlier...I just don't like the internet revising history, when I was there.

 

 

[Leonard Smith]

I think there's another point of view that many don't consider.

 

Remember, many of us were young children during the height of the Atari craze.  Our parents did the bulk of the buying decisions.  And hate to say it, most were not tech savvy or fully aware of all the options out there.  To them, Atari was Atari, and they either bought what they thought what we would like or used our guidance as to which games and items to purchase.  The 5200 and 7800 really weren't a thing for the majority of us back then, because we had our 2600's and upgrading to the 5200 for most kids wasn't really an option to play improved versions of most of the games we already had.  Parents definitely looked at it that way, and I can attest that the majority of my classmates had parents that felt the same as no one had a 5200 or 7800 in those days.  

All this talk about Atari loyalists being angry and whatnot isn't 100% accurate.  The 5200 was marketed to a more sophisticated user who was willing and able to go to the next level for their gaming.  The rest of us just stuck with what we had.  Nobody got angry or even knew that there was even a 7800 on the horizon.  Mainstream press didn't really cover games, and less so once the crash happened.  There was no internet or gaming news sites like we have today, just whatever the mainstream news decided to put out.  The NES wasn't really a factor either until 1987 or so, at least that's when we first started seeing them in stores around here.  And even then, it didn't really truly take off until about 1988.

 

 

[+Cafeman]

29 minutes ago, Leonard Smith said:

Nobody got angry or even knew that there was even a 7800 on the horizon

There was no internet or gaming news sites like we have today, just whatever the mainstream news decided to put out. 

Magazines existed and lots of us read them.  Electronic Games, and the others.  I remember reading in disbelief about how bad the industry was doing, which hadn't quite hit locally yet,  and they did mention Atari's next rumored console which did irk me, after all I just got a 5200. 

 

But I wasn't angry because soon bargain bins allowed me to pick up a dozen new games for cheap. I didnt actually see a 7800 until about 87, and it did not interest me. 

 

The sad thing is, GCC was pumping out lots of technically great 2600 and 5200 games in 83 and 84, who knows what else they would have accomplished had the crash not happened.  Imagine they had been given 128k to work with. 

[zzip]

44 minutes ago, Leonard Smith said:

Remember, many of us were young children during the height of the Atari craze.  Our parents did the bulk of the buying decisions.  And hate to say it, most were not tech savvy or fully aware of all the options out there.  To them, Atari was Atari, and they either bought what they thought what we would like or used our guidance as to which games and items to purchase.  The 5200 and 7800 really weren't a thing for the majority of us back then, because we had our 2600's and upgrading to the 5200 for most kids wasn't really an option to play improved versions of most of the games we already had.  Parents definitely looked at it that way, and I can attest that the majority of my classmates had parents that felt the same as no one had a 5200 or 7800 in those days.

Not everyone buys new consoles the first year they are out.  They are expensive, and don't have enough compelling launch libraries, etc.    But after a few years of great game releases, people will make the jump,  especially if the old console starts to get phased out.

 

49 minutes ago, Leonard Smith said:

Nobody got angry or even knew that there was even a 7800 on the horizon.  Mainstream press didn't really cover games, and less so once the crash happened.  There was no internet or gaming news sites like we have today, just whatever the mainstream news decided to put out.  The NES wasn't really a factor either until 1987 or so, at least that's when we first started seeing them in stores around here.  And even then, it didn't really truly take off until about 1988.

There were lots of angry letters about the 5200 cancellation in the gaming mags.   And as they say, the rule of thumb is for every letter received there are hundreds of people who feel the same way who didn't bother to write.  Yeah we didn't have social media so no way to gauge how big the backlash was.   But look at it this way,  suppose Sony announced tomorrow they were discontinuing the PS5, even though it hasn't even been out two years and they will be releasing a new PS6 this Christmas.   Oh by the way the PS6 is not backwards compatible with PS5, but is backwards compatible with the PS3, could you imagine the outrage?   That's pretty much exactly what Atari did in 1984.

 

[Leonard Smith]

I guess I missed out on the gaming mags of the day.  
Parents probably wouldn't have allowed me to buy them anyway.  Geography also had a lot to do with how savvy or in the know you were regarding gaming back then.  Those on the west coast had more exposure than folks like me in the Northeast.  Either way, doesn't matter in the long run.

 

[littleman jack]

I think the video game crash and the computers (Atari, Commodore, TI, Tandy, Apple) really made the 5200 a runner up to most people at the time.

 

Atari didn't do a good job with the marketing or joysticks. but most people still had 2600s and then moved on to computers, and the cost was prohibitive.

 

Most kids had to convince their parents that a home computer was more than a game machine. At least in my neighborhood. So getting a 5200 wasn't an option. We did all want one because the games looked great in the magazines and in the Toys R' Us, but our parent wouldn't go for it.

[Keatah]

Initially my buddies and I were all hyped for the 5200. In five thousand two hundred ways even.

 

The disappointment came in realizing the games weren't "SuperSystem" class, but regular "400/800" class. Remakes and ports. Blech!! Combined with ratty controllers we looked at our collective selves and wondered what we were doing. Nothing shuts down a gaming session faster than controllers that are not working - whether it be vintage controllers back in the day, or a modern emulation setup not being done right.

 

We just went up-in-arms and played Atari 800 instead.

 

1 hour ago, Leonard Smith said:

Geography also had a lot to do with how savvy or in the know you were regarding gaming back then.

Yes. It also determined whether or not the average user (not power developers) was able to experience a given platform or computer to its fullest. I had that issue with the Amiga. So much was lacking in my area for that rig. Will I ever stop complaining about it? Not likely.

 

But.. Every other platform was in full force. From VCS to PC, there were multiple stores within 10 or 15 miles that overstocked everything to point of having to cancel shipments! People lining up outside the doors prior to new releases. Just like what happens today with AAA titles.