Why do the graphics on actal game cartridges look so much better than the same game on my Atarimax SD Flash cart?

[XLurker]

I have a 4 port with the 2 port BIOS installed hooked up with RF to a 20" Sony Wega flat CRT. Most games on my AtariMax flash cart looked great until I compared the ROM on the AtariMax to the same game on an OEM cartridge. Everything becomes more vivid on the actual game cart on my system. Also some games like Beef Drop, Pac-Man, Krazy Shoot-Out and others have graphical glitches that are not present on the OEM cart, while other games like Scramble, H.E.R.O., and all 8-bit conversions look great on the AtariMax. I have a 2 port that did not experience any graphical problems on the AtariMax, but the problem with the 2 port is that although it has a very nice RF signal, when compared side by side, the 4 port RF picture is just a bit more clearer, sharper and more colorful. Are there any pundits out there that can explain this phenomena?

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 hour ago, XLurker said:

I have a 4 port with the 2 port BIOS installed hooked up with RF to a 20" Sony Wega flat CRT. Most games on my AtariMax flash cart looked great until I compared the ROM on the AtariMax to the same game on an OEM cartridge. Everything becomes more vivid on the actual game cart on my system. Also some games like Beef Drop, Pac-Man, Krazy Shoot-Out and others have graphical glitches that are not present on the OEM cart, while other games like Scramble, H.E.R.O., and all 8-bit conversions look great on the AtariMax. I have a 2 port that did not experience any graphical problems on the AtariMax, but the problem with the 2 port is that although it has a very nice RF signal, when compared side by side, the 4 port RF picture is just a bit more clearer, sharper and more colorful. Are there any pundits out there that can explain this phenomena?

You will have to show some comparison pictures because I own the AtariMax SD and quite a lot of the actual carts and I see ZERO difference between the actual carts and playing them through my AtariMax.

 

Now having said that, I will tell you that through RF, the games will show more inteference because the actual games have additional RF shielding inside the carts whereas the AtariMax PCB doesn't. As a result, I do see additional interference through RF from games off the AtariMax. But I rarely use the RF other than for testing since my 5200 is AV upgraded.

[XLurker]

I get this strange dotted line shown here with Pac-Man and a number of other game ROMs . I get the same dotted line with the Beef Drop ROM on AtariMax but not on the same game on an AtariAge repro cart from Albert. It happens on the K-Razy Shoot-Out ROM but the repro cart from Albert plays perfectly.

[XLurker]

I get a great video signal with RF and the CRT it is attached too. I have a UAV S-Video 7800 which is nice. When i compare the pictures side by side I just personally prefer the warmth of the RF signal. Same with my Intellivision II and Colecovision, they just look really good to me. Take Jungle Hunt for instance. To me the cannibal scene looks great with RF but not with S-Video.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Someone else not that long ago also reported the same issue with those odd dots down the middle of the screen when playing some games on their AtariMax. I don't remember if the issue was found or not? I pretty much only use my Atarimax SD and haven't seen anything like that from my cart. But to be clear, you are talking about the line of dots down the middle of the screen in your pacman pic right?

 

As for RF. I do think the Intellivision and Colecovision have really good RF output. However, in my particular case and with several others. Our TVs simply don't handle the signal very well and as a result it isn't playable. Yes connecting them to a CRT they look good, but I don't have room nor the desire to have a CRT in my game room. So for me it was a much better plan to just install AV upgrades into all of my classic consoles that I actually play on and use composite or s-video output form them. Not sure what you mean about jungle hunt though? 2600 version I'm assuming?

 

[BIGHMW]

Here are MY problems on my Atarimax with (not only) Pac-Man, but also with Pac-Man Plus! and also Hangly-Man, respectively, the glitch is on the Pac-Man character himself:

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by BIGHMW

[BIGHMW]

5 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

As for RF. I do think the Intellivision and Colecovision have really good RF output. However, in my particular case and with several others. Our TVs simply don't handle the signal very well and as a result it isn't playable. Yes connecting them to a CRT they look good, but I don't have room nor the desire to have a CRT in my game room. So for me it was a much better plan to just install AV upgrades into all of my classic consoles that I actually play on and use composite or s-video output form them. Not sure what you mean about jungle hunt though? 2600 version I'm assuming?

 

If you enjoy a better picture on the RF output on an HDTV without having to do an AV mod then this device is meant just for you, it adapts the RF to an HDMI output to connect to your HDMI input on your modern HDTV, even a 4K or 8K TV will work with her, so watch and learn. I discovered this device last year and it has become of the staples in my home entertainment system and I swear by it for all 4 of my Atari systems:  

 

 

 

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

9 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

If you enjoy a better picture on the RF output on an HDTV without having to do an AV mod then this device is meant just for you, it adapts the RF to an HDMI output to connect to your HDMI input on your modern HDTV, even a 4K or 8K TV will work with her, so watch and learn. I discovered this device last year and it has become of the staples in my home entertainment system and I swear by it for all 4 of my Atari systems:  

 

 

 

 

Such a converter wasn't known to me 6 or 7 years ago when I first started to AV upgrade my personal systems. Even then, devices like this are only going to produce as good an image as what they initially receive or GIGO as it were. While you might not be able to perceive it, there is added lag in using a device like this and I too didn't think it was such a big deal until I got the OSSC + Extron setup that I'm running now in the game room. 

 

But if you are going to play mostly more casual stuff that isn't quite twitch play heavy and enjoy the fuzziness from the RF, then go for it. It isn't for me. Even as a young boy, I always dreamed of owning a larger and larger TV to play my games on. I use a 50" LCD in the game room and the ITC game room is actually kinda small so with that large a TV, I'm only about 4 or 5 ft from it when playing and any amount of video anomaly stands out to me. 

[marauder666]

I pointed ctrl-alt-rees at this thread, after he noticed glitches on his atarimax on a livestream.

the fix mentioned works, he put up a youtube video of the fix.

 

 

 

 

[XLurker]

Problem solved! with Tech tip #7 

Atari 5200 graphics glitch fix Tech.Tip.07.pdf

Edited November 1, 2021 by XLurker

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I've seen that bulletin before but never put two and two together that this was the issue it corrected. However, @XLurker why do you have a 2 port BIOS in your 4-Port console?

 

I'm pretty sure I've seen this factory rework as well mentioned in the bulletin but only on 2 port consoles. Not sure I've seen it on 4-port units and I noticed the one in the video above is also a 2 port unit.

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Okay, so interesting bit of info on this. I actually have a 5200 on my bench right now with a rockwell Sally in it with a date code of 8303 and the wonderful RC stamped onto the upper left of the chip. I fired up pac-man and sure enough..it has the same graphical glitching following the pac-man sprite vertically along the screen as the screen shots in this thread show. So, I took it upon myself to go through Bulletin#7 to correct for this.

 

TLDR: it didn't work. I'm not sure the exact issue other than this 5200 is a later made 4-port with the newer 4-port mainboard revision and the asterisk stamp indicating it has the VCS adapter compatibility already in place. Those later boards have the VCS issue corrected within the PCB design so there aren't any bodge wires...etc. However, this unit did NOT have the factory predone fix for the rockwell CPU either. So it would seem that the CPU timing fix doesn't apply or actually work on the newer revision 4-port boards.

 

Here is the longer detailed story of what I tried etc...

 

I first looked and severed that trace just to the right of the solder pad at point A as indicated in the bulletin and verified no continuity existed any more. Now because I just like doing this, I actually sourced my 100pf cap and 570Ω resistor from another 5200 parts donor board as those resistors are all over the place and there are a few of the 100pf caps as well. I did things in backward order from the bulletin in that I actually attached the resistor to the point B via first with the shrink tubing on it and then soldered in the other end of it into the point A via. I then took the 100pf cap and soldered one end of it to the lead that was left at Point A and the other end to the lead that was sticking up through the board on the top North leg of C27. BTW that is just ground so you could attach that to any ground source on the board and I guess they figured that was the closest easiest point to attach to.

 

I then put it all back together, popped in my AtariMax and turned on the system. Nothing...just a flash of a black screen? I then popped in my Pete's Test cart and that at least gave me the Atari title loader screen but it was showing obvious graphic corruption that was not static and moving all over the image. It would then give me a red screen indicating a stuck bit. But this stuck bit error would seem to change each time I power cycled the console. I removed everything, restored the trace and made sure it was back to working order and it was with the same graphic issues on pac-man.

 

I then looked carefully at the board and noticed that the factory install version of this fix is on the component side and does the exact same thing but attaching the cap and resistor to pin 1 of the LS10 at U14. However, the 4-port board I'm working on is using an LS125 and has additional components in the way that would have made the factory modification more difficult for Atari. Another difference in the Atari factory mod is that they lift the pin 1 leg out of circuit that they attach the cap and resistor to. They also do NOT sever the trace between those points on the bottom of the board. I then tried to replicate this as well and at least the system would boot up and run, but... it made no change the graphical glitching. 

 

What I finally did was just put everything back to stock condition and then removed the original LS125 at A14 off the board and replaced it with a new socket and older LS125 from a two port parts donor. To my amazement the graphical glitching is now mysteriously gone?! Well, not completely, I did notice a few very sparce sparkles that would briefly flash for a frame randomly within the vertical sprite field of Pac-Man so the issue is still present but MUCH MUCH reduced to the point that you wouldn't even notice them on a CRT from my testing I did last night. So it would seem that if you have newer revision board with that rockwell CPU, you cannot apply the factory fix as it doesn't work and instead you might look at replacing out the LS125 at A14 instead. Because in the end that is all that was actually done after all the other work I tried to do.