Doom 32X Resurrection

[Barone]

 

[Asaki]

11 hours ago, Chilly Willy said:

Yeah, it's getting harder to find a 32X at a decent price... you just have to keep an eye on the auctions and leap into action when you get a chance.

I found one at a thrift shop once, and said to myself "Idunno, is $20 worth it for a console with a small handful of games??"

Of course, that was way before I got an EverDrive >_<

That was shortly before retro hardware started going way up in price, too.

 

A couple years ago I was looking at them again on eBay, but most of them were "refurb bundles" packed with a Genny 2 and everything else, and they kept going for over $100. But this pandemic has me staying away from almost everything.

  

11 hours ago, Chilly Willy said:

And we added mouse support to it. I'm not aware of any of the console ports supporting a mouse.

Playing a first person shooter with a mouse allows for far better control compared to just a pad, especially if the pad has no analog sticks.

You need a programmable pad with shoulder triggers to really be able to effectively control Doom with a pad, otherwise circle strafing is too difficult.

Ah, cool. Wasn't sure about that one, since I don't know off-hand when the Sega Mouse came out.

I'm fine with DOOM + mouse in engines that support vertical aiming, but in the vanilla/chocolate engines, it just feels weird to me.

Yeah, I always bind strafe to the R + L buttons, it's a must. Not sure about the Genny 6-button pad, but I usually play using my fingers for the face buttons instead of my thumb, so I'm sure I could figure something out...even if I have to play a little Finger Twister...

[phoenixdownita]

Can't seem to be able to connect to romhacking to get the patch.

 

@Barone if you happen to have the xdelta file can you share it (PM maybe)?

 

EDIT: nvm it came pack, all good, patch acquired and applied.

[Skippy B. Coyote]

Very cool project and I definitely appreciate all the enhancements, but it's got major stability issues on real hardware. On my Genesis Model 2 Rev VA4 + 32X + Mega EverDrive Pro setup I can rarely get through a level without the sound glitching out followed shortly by the game crashing and freezing. Maybe one in five times I can actually get through a level without a crash. Which is a real bummer because this enhancement is amazing in all other regards!

[Chilly Willy]

3 hours ago, Skippy B. Coyote said:

Very cool project and I definitely appreciate all the enhancements, but it's got major stability issues on real hardware. On my Genesis Model 2 Rev VA4 + 32X + Mega EverDrive Pro setup I can rarely get through a level without the sound glitching out followed shortly by the game crashing and freezing. Maybe one in five times I can actually get through a level without a crash. Which is a real bummer because this enhancement is amazing in all other regards!

It's been tested on lots of real hardware without issue. We even support the buggy SH2 processors. There may be an issue with your system. You might get the 32X Service Manuals off the net and check the trouble shooting sections. Certain models require certain caps to be clipped to make the system stable.

 

[Skippy B. Coyote]

8 hours ago, Chilly Willy said:

It's been tested on lots of real hardware without issue. We even support the buggy SH2 processors. There may be an issue with your system. You might get the 32X Service Manuals off the net and check the trouble shooting sections. Certain models require certain caps to be clipped to make the system stable.

 

 

There's definitely no issues with my 32X system at all, it's in perfect working order. I've had it for about 3 years, use it frequently, and I've never had any other games crash whether they were being played off original carts or an EverDrive. I just did a playthrough of the original 32X Doom off an original cartridge and JagDoom 32X off the EverDrive recently and had no trouble with either of them, but for some reason Doom 32X Resurrection rarely makes it through a single level without crashing. 

 

Have you tested the game specifically with the 32X in combination with later 3/4 motherboard Genesis model 2 revisions like the VA3 and VA4? I suspect the audio failure and subsequent crashing may be due to the different FM Busy flag behavior of the later Genesis model 2's integrated GOAC YM3438 not being accounted for. Either that or it could be a TAS implementation bug, since the later model 2s do have different TAS behavior as well that can cause crashes like this in games that don't account for it. That would be a really easy bug to overlook since the vast majority of Genesis Model 1 and Model 2 systems have different TAS behavior than the later 3/4 motherboard revisions.

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Skippy B. Coyote

[Chilly Willy]

1 hour ago, Skippy B. Coyote said:

Have you tested the game specifically with the 32X in combination with later 3/4 motherboard Genesis model 2 revisions like the VA3 and VA4? I suspect the audio failure and subsequent crashing may be due to the different FM Busy flag behavior of the later Genesis model 2's integrated GOAC YM3438 not being accounted for. Either that or it could be a TAS implementation bug, since the later model 2s do have different TAS behavior as well that can cause crashes like this in games that don't account for it. That would be a really easy bug to overlook since the vast majority of Genesis Model 1 and Model 2 systems have different TAS behavior than the later 3/4 motherboard revisions.

Well, obviously we can't test it on every bit of hardware out. No one has every bit of hardware out.

 

The point about the integrated YM3438 flag could affect the FM music, but shouldn't crash the game. It should be easy enough to test... turn off the FM music. The sound effects are played on the 32X. We don't use TAS on the Genesis side... no one should since how TAS is handled varies from model to model, with model 3 Genesis being utterly different - enough that some official games don't work on it.

 

You might want to contact myself or Vic via email. This may turn into something that could help others we haven't heard from. Like I said, no one has every bit of hardware, but when you run across someone with an issue, that can help others.

 

In the meantime, do you still have the older patch files? Maybe try some older versions and see if the problem is better or worse. That could help narrow down the problem. Certain versions have particular changes, and maybe one of those is badly reacting with your system.

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

I haven't tested 1.5 extensively yet, but I've played all the other releases and streamed it several times. I've been able to always play up and past the 2 hell guards that act as the end of episode 1 Boss from the PC versions without issue.

 

I've been playing on a Genesis model 1 va2 with Firebrandx's Mini Mega Amp and Double Mega mods installed (FM is routed to a dedicated YM3438 IC) with a stock 32x (early revision), and a model 2 SegaCD. But I only use the FM music on mine. Only other modifications is that my subcarrier trace was pulled off the PCB and then wired up elsewhere with a switch to keep the jail bars under better control through RGB output.

 

[Barone]

On 12/15/2021 at 6:42 PM, Skippy B. Coyote said:

Very cool project and I definitely appreciate all the enhancements, but it's got major stability issues on real hardware. On my Genesis Model 2 Rev VA4 + 32X + Mega EverDrive Pro setup I can rarely get through a level without the sound glitching out followed shortly by the game crashing and freezing. Maybe one in five times I can actually get through a level without a crash. Which is a real bummer because this enhancement is amazing in all other regards!

 

On 12/16/2021 at 6:12 AM, Skippy B. Coyote said:

 

There's definitely no issues with my 32X system at all, it's in perfect working order. I've had it for about 3 years, use it frequently, and I've never had any other games crash whether they were being played off original carts or an EverDrive. I just did a playthrough of the original 32X Doom off an original cartridge and JagDoom 32X off the EverDrive recently and had no trouble with either of them, but for some reason Doom 32X Resurrection rarely makes it through a single level without crashing. 

 

Have you tested the game specifically with the 32X in combination with later 3/4 motherboard Genesis model 2 revisions like the VA3 and VA4? I suspect the audio failure and subsequent crashing may be due to the different FM Busy flag behavior of the later Genesis model 2's integrated GOAC YM3438 not being accounted for. Either that or it could be a TAS implementation bug, since the later model 2s do have different TAS behavior as well that can cause crashes like this in games that don't account for it. That would be a really easy bug to overlook since the vast majority of Genesis Model 1 and Model 2 systems have different TAS behavior than the later 3/4 motherboard revisions.

 

Thanks for your messages.
I've tested it on real hardware for hundreds of hours. No issues like you described.
And I've experience testing MD games (was part of the Tanglewood's beta testing team, for one example) and professional experience as QA analyst.

My assessment would be that the issue is likely NOT with D32XR, nor is it some kind of software incompatibility with the 32X hardware itself. 
Between me, Chilly, Vic, Matteus and a couple of other people I think we tested pretty much every 32X model and revision out there, including the European and Japanese ones.

Now maybe your setup has "hidden" stability issues inherited from the Genesis Model 2 Rev VA4 + 32X combination. And that would be on Sega IMO.

Please, if you have the means to test other setup combinations, then that's a feedback that could be interesting and valuable.
It would be nice to try to isolate from where the instability comes from (even if you firmly believe that D32XR is the sole source of it):
1) Trying it with a different flash cart.
2) Trying it with a different controller and with only 1 controller plugged in.
3) Trying it with a different Sega Genesis/Mega Drive model/revision.

Please, I'd also like to know which power supply solution, which connection cables and which controller you're using.
And for the record and future investigations: could you please take pictures of the stamps containing the serial numbers both of the 32X and Genesis you're using? 

Also, I'd like to have a more detailed description of the "sound glitching" behavior:
1) What exactly glitches out: the music, the sound effects or both?
2) Do they become garbled or just switch off? Does the volume goes up or down at any point?
3) What happens if you play the game with the FM music switched off? Does the glitching behavior change at all?
4) Usually, what does seem to trigger the glitch or make it noticeable: you firing your weapon? Enemies making noises? When you get hit?
5) What happens if you start a game, let's say in "I'm a wimp!" difficulty and leave the player there stationary at the beginning; does it glitch out and freeze? After how much time in average? A minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 30+ minutes?
6) If you do the same of the above scenario but carefully unplug the controller and leave the game running without a controller plugged in, does the glitching behavior change at all?
7) Does it glitch out and freeze if you simply leave the game attract mode running and never actually tries to play it? Even with the controller unplugged?
8 ) Once the sound begins to glitch, if you press the reset button on the Genesis, does it correctly resets the game? If you let the glitch go further up until when it freezes the game, are you able to reset it by just pressing the Genesis' reset button?

From a QA perspective, it's not really recommended to draw strong conclusions from one setup combination and if I were to do so I'd need to stress test such setup with different games, PSUs, controllers, flashcarts, etc. for several days to minimize the chance of it having some sort of hardware instability/incompatibility in itself. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Barone

[Rick Dangerous]

This is freaking awesome!!!  This should be a major announcement somewhere, to think i almost didn't find this....

 

Here is a good rom patcher if anyone needs one: 

 

Rom Patcher JS (marcrobledo.com)

 

The pictures don't do it justice; this hack absolutely rocks!  It looks so good and it's SO fast (but not too fast.). I would kill (some demons) to get a full release of this on a cart someday. 

 

Split screen co-op, option for CD sound, a save feature, are you kidding me?  It doesn't get any better than this.  Thank you!

Edited December 20, 2021 by Rick Dangerous

[Chilly Willy]

Thanks, glad you like it. Vic, in particular, put a lot of work into it. He's the driving force behind D32XR. We're currently getting Sega Mapper support worked in so that we can go with roms bigger than 4MB. Seems to be going well so far. That will allow us to do things like improve levels and sprites, and add back in code to allow for missing levels and Doom 2+. It's pretty well set for the first release version - took a few revisions to work out most of the kinks, but it's going good now. It's not perfect (yet), but it's good enough for now. We'll see where it goes from here.

 

[Punisher5.0]

Finally got around to trying this out tonight and wow is it good. Makes me wonder if the 32x could of had a different fate if this was the retail release. It would've reviewed very well BITD.

 

Oh and future Doom 2 support? Yes please!!

[Rick Dangerous]

Is there any way to change the CD mid game or do you have to reset the system?  When I go into CD audio initially the disc tray will open (I manually close it with a finger.) I then reset the game and it will start playing when i do.  If I go into audio, then CD audio, and hit reset to eject the disc, the game just freezes.   Is there a better way to do things to switch discs in the middle of a long play session? 

 

Would be a cool 1.6 update, just saying

 

Here is with CD Audio:

 

Doom: Resurrection v1.5 on Sega 32x with CD Audio - YouTube

[Chilly Willy]

Yeah, I didn't really expect anyone to switch CDs while the game is running. I'll have to make some changes for that. The next thing for CD is to add support for ISO9660 data discs with PCM/ADPCM to stream through the CD's PCM chip. That will allow more tracks, as well as longer ones, with only slightly less quality than the CDDA audio.

 

And you forgot to flip the switch in the secret room (as well as get the backpack) before going after the red key. Look for the part of the wall that doesn't match the rest.

[Barone]

17 hours ago, Punisher5.0 said:

Finally got around to trying this out tonight and wow is it good. Makes me wonder if the 32x could of had a different fate if this was the retail release. It would've reviewed very well BITD.

 

Oh and future Doom 2 support? Yes please!!

Thanks a lot for the feedback and positiveness. I shared your post with Vic (https://twitter.com/vluchitz); he's the creator, lead and superhero of this project. He started all this willing to show that the 32X was far more capable than people (especially on Youtube) would usually think/say it is.
He had this concept that it would be possible to make Doom run at 25 fps on a PAL 32X. I admit that I honestly thought he was out of his mind when he wrote his first posts about this project he was willing to start.

Also, Chilly Willy has always had a similar vision and probably none of this would have been possible without him, the tools he created and the knowledge he's shared for more than a decade. AND the support and nice touches he still provides.

Calico Doom is also a very important piece of the puzzle. 

Keep in mind that we (as a team/community) do NOT have:
- An accurate 32X emulator; so both their performance measurements and functionality checks are totally unreliable.
- A debugger. So a really unhealthy amount of trial and error by Vic, otherwise none of these releases would have happened.
- A hardware-level profiler. We have to rely on software-side profiling + lots of tests on end-user hardware.  
- The official devkit. It's Chilly Willy's software devkit, drab/old/outdated/incomplete official docs in PDF and a LOT of effort and many clever solutions by Vic.
- Doom-related tools compatible with the 32X formats; Vic had to craft his own scripts, tools and processes. Wavy keeps having to re-re-re-fix maps.
- Fully compatible flashcarts (all of them have some sort of caveat/added limitation when running off the 32X).
- Test-friendly equipment: flashcarts have more and more being designed based on the concept that you'll rarely need to change the content of its giant SD card; other features such as "last played game" don't support multiple versions, just one ROM; consumer 32X is either locked at 50 Hz or 60 Hz, you need to mod it if you want to switch between them; controllers, especially the 6-button ones, can behavior a bit differently and we basically have to rely on our own collections of controllers to test compatibility; wide range of display solutions nowadays, what is fine for CRT may not be fine for modern TVs, etc.
...

BUT I'd stay tuned if I were you.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Barone

[+Cafeman]

It is an impressive effort!  I played it for the first time last week. I love the sound. I'm not surprised that it took hours and trial & effort endeavours.   

[Asaki]

3 hours ago, Barone said:

- The official devkit. It's Chilly Willy's software devkit, drab/old/outdated/incomplete official docs in PDF and a LOT of effort and many clever solutions by Vic.

I'm surprised, with how many huge Sega dumps we've had, that a 32X devkit hasn't shown up yet.

 

Unless someone's sitting on one and just hasn't gotten around to sharing yet...

[Barone]

7 hours ago, Cafeman said:

It is an impressive effort!  I played it for the first time last week. I love the sound. I'm not surprised that it took hours and trial & effort endeavours.   

Spoony Bard's rendition of the soundtrack is really amazing (by the way, he currently only have 5 patrons, which is kinda of messed up: https://www.patreon.com/SpoonyBard). Especially when you consider that he didn't use a single PCM sample (due to current audio driver and ROM space limitations) nor the 32X hardware (only the sound effects are handled by the 32X); it's all FM and PSG sounds.
E1M4 and E1M5 might be my favorite tracks of his work. 
It's also very faithful to the original Roland SC-55 compositions.

Unlike most people nowadays, I really enjoy when PCM samples are not used; I prefer clarity and wider dynamic range over instrument fidelity. 
Hitoshi Sakimoto's Gauntlet and Nathan McCree's Skeleton Krew soundtracks also don't use PCM samples; two of my favorite soundtracks on any system.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Barone

[Chilly Willy]

12 hours ago, Asaki said:

I'm surprised, with how many huge Sega dumps we've had, that a 32X devkit hasn't shown up yet.

 

Unless someone's sitting on one and just hasn't gotten around to sharing yet...

 

There is an arc that made the rounds that is a combined Sega CD, 32X, and Saturn devkit with libraries (for the Saturn) and examples. That's where the various 32X demos like the tie-dye Sonic 3D model and the 32X hardware test came from. There's a smaller arc with just the 32X stuff. They've been floating around the net for at least a decade. People don't talk about it today because it's so old. We just kind forget about it, but newbies should probably get it, at least for the documentation and old examples. I think they've got copies of the arcs over at Assembler, and maybe at SegaXtreme.

 

 

6 hours ago, Barone said:

Spoony Bard's rendition of the soundtrack is really amazing (by the way, he currently only have 5 patrons, which is kinda of messed up: https://www.patreon.com/SpoonyBard). Especially when you consider that he didn't use a single PCM sample (due to current audio driver and ROM space limitations) nor the 32X hardware (only the sound effects are handled by the 32X); it's all FM and PSG sounds.
E1M4 and E1M5 might be my favorite tracks of his work. 
It's also very faithful to the original Roland SC-55 compositions.

Unlike most people nowadays, I really enjoy when PCM samples are not used; I prefer clarity and wider dynamic range over instrument fidelity. 
Hitoshi Sakimoto's Gauntlet and Nathan McCree's Skeleton Krew soundtracks also don't use PCM samples; two of my favorite soundtracks on any system.

 

It really is amazing, but I think FM percussion suffers a little. I certainly like PCM drums better. The current player in D32XR doesn't handle PCM as it uses lzss archived VGMs, decompressing the music on the fly. Decompressing the PCM from an archive on the fly would be a big pain, so it wasn't implemented. The original player for D32XR does handle PCM, but doesn't handle compressed VGMs, which means the music takes more space. Too much space for 4MB, which is why we compressed the music. So it's just as well spoony's music used FM percussion.

[Barone]

32 minutes ago, Chilly Willy said:

It really is amazing, but I think FM percussion suffers a little. I certainly like PCM drums better.

Yeah, I know; the YM2612 is specially difficult to do decent percussion with.
And like 99.9% of people will agree with you, but I'm a bit tired/worn out by MD remixes filled with PCM samples and this rendition was really refreshing to me.

As a kid, my favorite soundtrack was Quackshot's; which is PCM-free. So the lack of PCM drums was never a thing to me and the least amount of PCM playback distortion I can hear from a mile away; so it gets on my nerves real quick. I can't stand Sonic 2 with the original audio driver, for an example; it's rather distracting for me (thankfully there are improved versions nowadays which fix the PCM playback and now I only use them).
Another aspect is, games resorting to PCM percussion tend to reuse the same samples over and over and over again (given the ROM space constraints). While games such as Quackshot have different percussion "sets" depending on the theme of the stage. That's a big plus with me. 

I loved playing Xeno Crisis, I really enjoyed the music, etc; still I find stuff like Hitoshi Sakimoto's Gauntlet far more pleasant to listen to.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Barone

[Punisher5.0]

I finished playing through the whole game today and didn't run into any problems. Top notch work everyone! 

[Barone]

3 hours ago, Punisher5.0 said:

I finished playing through the whole game today and didn't run into any problems. Top notch work everyone! 

Thank you so much for playing it and reporting back.
Really glad you enjoyed it.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Barone

[Chilly Willy]

On 1/6/2022 at 11:11 AM, Barone said:

Yeah, I know; the YM2612 is specially difficult to do decent percussion with.
And like 99.9% of people will agree with you, but I'm a bit tired/worn out by MD remixes filled with PCM samples and this rendition was really refreshing to me.

As a kid, my favorite soundtrack was Quackshot's; which is PCM-free. So the lack of PCM drums was never a thing to me and the least amount of PCM playback distortion I can hear from a mile away; so it gets on my nerves real quick. I can't stand Sonic 2 with the original audio driver, for an example; it's rather distracting for me (thankfully there are improved versions nowadays which fix the PCM playback and now I only use them).
Another aspect is, games resorting to PCM percussion tend to reuse the same samples over and over and over again (given the ROM space constraints). While games such as Quackshot have different percussion "sets" depending on the theme of the stage. That's a big plus with me. 

I loved playing Xeno Crisis, I really enjoyed the music, etc; still I find stuff like Hitoshi Sakimoto's Gauntlet far more pleasant to listen to.

 

I know what you mean. I keep a directory of Genesis VGM files on my SD card that I like playing with the NeoMyth menu. Some games just have such awesome synth music it can give me chills. If you put some work into it, the YM2612 can do some really great instruments. Sega needed a top musician to put some work into it and then had a database of settings for good instruments for games to use for their music. Seriously, some games sound like they're barely more than sine waves. ?

[Barone]

On 12/6/2021 at 12:05 PM, zetastrike said:

Is the framerate here better than the PS1 version?  I've sunk a ton of time into D32xR for the past month and popped in the PS1 version last week and I swear it runs worse.

So, I know when you wrote it, it was still D32XR v1.4 (and v1.5 really had a significant framerate boost) but I decided to had a look on why you could be having that "feel" when playing the PS1 version.

I noticed the PS1 version has some brief weird framerate inconsistency in spots, specially when you have long corridors with some sort of room at the end of it or spots where you have a more distant open view (it doesn't really need to have super complex geometry in front of you).
In such situations it will do stuff like:
update the entire screen after 2 tics (which would be 30 fps)
then update the entire screen after 4 tics (which would be 15 fps)
then update the entire screen after 2 tics again (which would be 30 fps)
then update the entire screen after 3 tics (which would be 20 fps)
then update the entire screen after 3 tics (which would be 20 fps)
then update the entire screen after 4 tics (which would be 15 fps)
then update the entire screen after 2 tics again (which would be 30 fps)
then update the entire screen after 4 tics (which would be 15 fps)
then update the entire screen after 2 tics again (which would be 30 fps)
... 

Some places where you can find stuff like that:
https://youtu.be/gileO364-fQ?t=6044
https://youtu.be/gileO364-fQ?t=6129
https://youtu.be/gileO364-fQ?t=6174

In places like these, I'm sure the current WIP version of D32XR performs better than the PS1's in fullscreen (let's remember the PS1 is running at higher res, with higher color depth, etc.) and even at D32XR's highest res the 32X may perform on par/with more stable framerate:
https://youtu.be/gileO364-fQ?t=6238
https://youtu.be/gileO364-fQ?t=6713
https://youtu.be/gileO364-fQ?t=7099

Keep in mind I'm using these links just as illustrative examples; I tested it locally on real hardware by myself and recorded some 60 fps footage so I could frame advance them and compare.

The bottom line is: while the PS1 version is technically more advanced, etc , etc. D32XR does seem to be more stable in full screen; in some specific spots it will also perform better even in high res mode but that's not the point of the discussion here (I suppose you had played it in fullscreen mode).

The funky framerate variance on PS1 Doom might have an impact on controller response, so that would explain you feeling it running worse too.
According to this link: https://fabiensanglard.net/doom_psx/ (see "A FULL FRAME, COMMAND BY COMMAND") all rendering is done in one pass and in quite a different way than the PC (and D32XR as well) does.
So I think it's safe to assume that PS1 Doom and D32XR will perform with different characteristics in the very same map locations, especially when you consider that D32XR has been more and more tailored to split both the rendering and the calcs between the two SH2s.

D32XR feels more stable to me in terms of performance and the framerate variance, when it occurs, is less steep than on the PS1 despite both targeting 30 fps.

This is all conjectural, quickly put together stuff though; so take it with some salt, please.

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Barone

[Chilly Willy]

6 hours ago, Barone said:

According to this link: https://fabiensanglard.net/doom_psx/ (see "A FULL FRAME, COMMAND BY COMMAND") all rendering is done in one pass and in quite a different way than the PC (and D32XR as well) does.

 

Lots of good info about the PSX version there. Kinda funny that Sony avoided affine mapping artifacts by rendering with hardware a line at a time. I always wondered how they got around the normal affine fish-eye problem. Also of note, the PSX display is only 256 wide, not 320 like the PC. So the highest resolution on D32XR pretty much matches the PSX resolution. It's just not stretched over the whole display like on the PSX.