Star Raiders (original) ever ported?

[griff3125]

Was the original Star Raiders ever ported to the ST?

I'm not talking about the remake, but rather the original 400/800 game.

With all the conversions and ports of earlier games, I'm surprised that this was never done(from what I can tell).

I love the original, the remake was, I dunno, just alright, but never really had that classic feel.

[Keatah]

Be honest and let it all out. The so-called remake is a totally different game. None of the action and immersion are even remotely similar to the original. If present at all.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Keatah

[griff3125]

12 minutes ago, Keatah said:

Be honest and let it all out. The so-called remake is a totally different game. None of the action and immersion are even remotely similar to the original. If present at all.

Damn it all, YES, YES, it's true!!!!

I try and try and try, but.....it's......not.....!   !     !

 

 

[Lostdragon]

1 hour ago, griff3125 said:

Was the original Star Raiders ever ported to the ST?

I'm not talking about the remake, but rather the original 400/800 game.

With all the conversions and ports of earlier games, I'm surprised that this was never done(from what I can tell).

I love the original, the remake was, I dunno, just alright, but never really had that classic feel.

The ST version was, in coder Rob Zybdel's eyes, him paying homage to the original, but being given an opportunity to 'fix' what he felt was wrong with the original. 

 

He should of left ir well alone, to be blunt. 

 

It was like Peter Johnson's Amiga and  ST Wiz all, feel completely off from the C64 original. 

 

 

Once you loose what made the original so special, you end up with a playing experience that is in name only. 

[Keatah]

What were the things "wrong" with Star Raiders? Sounds like make-work to me..

[jefffulton]

I really like the ST version.  It was a "Blue Box" game that came with my Federated Group Purchased 1040STF. 
It compares (to me) very favorably tot he 8bit game. That just my opinion. 

[+DarkLord]

I have to admit, while the ST version is okay and I like it, if you ask

me which I'd rather play, I'd have to pick the 8bit version. While

"feel" is a vague description, and very subjective I too would have

to agree that the 8bit version has a different (and better) "feel"...

 

I'm also going to totally agree with the OP - the ST/STe port of Star

Raiders cries out loud for an conversion using Doug Little's Advanced

Gaming Tools.

 

https://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=31558

 

If someone capable does this, *then* let's compare the old and the

new... 

 

[delvis]

Can someone port the SSI Cosmic Balance 1 from the 400/800 to ST please. That was my favorite 8 bit game at the time. 

 

[Lynxpro]

12 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

The ST version was, in coder Rob Zybdel's eyes, him paying homage to the original, but being given an opportunity to 'fix' what he felt was wrong with the original. 

 

He should of left ir well alone, to be blunt. 

 

It was like Peter Johnson's Amiga and  ST Wiz all, feel completely off from the C64 original. 

 

 

Once you loose what made the original so special, you end up with a playing experience that is in name only. 

 

At least Rob Zydbel was a former Atari Inc'er working on the ST project back then. You know, part of the bunch of "Real Atari" guys that the Amigans like to claim didn't work on the ST at all and thus the ST is a "Commodore" computer.

 

And as one of the few non-former Atari employees to ever play his 3-Base Missile Command on the Atari 8-Bits, I say all of his work is top-notch. Hell, his Warbirds on the Lynx is a must have.

 

If there's any Atari game that should be ported to the ST, it should be Atari's - err GCC's - arcade original of Charley Chuck's Food Fight. After all, it was Atari's first 68000 powered arcade game.

[atarian1]

1 hour ago, Lynxpro said:

 

At least Rob Zydbel was a former Atari Inc'er working on the ST project back then. You know, part of the bunch of "Real Atari" guys that the Amigans like to claim didn't work on the ST at all and thus the ST is a "Commodore" computer.

 

And as one of the few non-former Atari employees to ever play his 3-Base Missile Command on the Atari 8-Bits, I say all of his work is top-notch. Hell, his Warbirds on the Lynx is a must have.

 

If there's any Atari game that should be ported to the ST, it should be Atari's - err GCC's - arcade original of Charley Chuck's Food Fight. After all, it was Atari's first 68000 powered arcade game.

Agreed with what you said above about Rob Zydbel! I am still kind of amazed that he (or anyone? ?) survived Atari for 15+ years. Even after not one, but two, interviews on the Antic podcast, I'm sure there must be more stories in his head that haven't been made public yet.

 

I believe Curt Vendel found the source code for a prototype of Food Fight on the ST. Mission: EdPossible featured it on one of his livestreams. To me, all the characters look out of proportion, but the gameplay seemed complete.

[ParanoidLittleMan]

Food Fight is converted for ST, but maybe not released in those years:  http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st-food-fight_33600.html

http://atari.8bitchip.info/SCRSH/foodfajt.html

 

Now, doing some 'classic' game on newer, more powerful computer conversion, remake or whatever we call it is in big part matter of taste, and intention - doing it faithful, or with using expanded capabilities.  Well, I remember only few faithful 'remakes'. Most is 'improved' - and if someone don't like it - ehm . Maybe should go with original on original comp./emulator.  Plus, I saw lot of complains about doing it close to original, that it has low color count and similar, 'why they did not improve graphic' ....

About that someone will now go in hard and slow process of converting some 8-bit classic to ST . Does not seem likely.

[Lostdragon]

I'm not sure why it's sometimes viewed as a cardinal sin, to fault a developers work, just because they have an established pedigree and stayed with a certain corporation or it's platforms for a number of years. 

 

 

I found Jeff Minter's work very hit and miss for my tastes for example. 

 

 

Llamatron

AMC

Hover Bovver 

Tempest 2000

Sheep In Space

Irdis Alpha. 

 

'Worked' for myself. 

 

Mama Llama

Space Giraffe 

Defender 2

Photon Storm

Defender 2000 

Tempest 4000

 

 

Didn't... 

 

 

Jeff himself openly admits things didn't turn out so well with a good few of his titles. 

 

 

With Rob Zybdel, i poured hours into Warbirds on the Lynx, only beaten by Wings on the GBA as that had more variety in it's missions. 

 

 

When it comes to a 'feel' of a game, it can be due to many factors. 

 

I find the C64 version of Dropzone to be weaker than the A8 version, as it's easier, C64 Rescue On Fractalus soon gets boring as it's a slower experience, that's not belittling the work of Archer or Lucasfilm, hardware differences played a role. 

 

 

Rob Zybdel made some changes to Star Raiders, which made it a different experience and they were his design choices

 

The subtle strategic elements were suddenly absent. 

 

 

You weren't able to steer during hyperspace, you couldn't destroy your own Starbase, to stop them falling into enemy hands and being used as a resource, small changes like these and others meant it simply didnt feel like the A8 game anymore. 

 

 

The poor sound FX were no fault of his, thst wretched AY chip was so limited, but the gameplay was all Rob. 

[Keatah]

2 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

I'm not sure why it's sometimes viewed as a cardinal sin, to fault a developers work, just because they have an established pedigree and stayed with a certain corporation or it's platforms for a number of years.

I partly blame it on madison avenue. They set the standards too high. Build up the hype. Then the product doesn't live up to expectations.

 

And the other part is squarely on the programmer and management. For mis-using the name of the original. As far as I can tell there is only one Star Raiders. The original 400/800 title.

[+DarkLord]

7 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

I'm not sure why it's sometimes viewed as a cardinal sin, to fault a developers work, just because they have an established pedigree and stayed with a certain corporation or it's platforms for a number of years. 

 

 

I found Jeff Minter's work very hit and miss for my tastes for example. 

 

 

Llamatron

AMC

Hover Bovver 

Tempest 2000

Sheep In Space

Irdis Alpha. 

 

'Worked' for myself. 

 

Mama Llama

Space Giraffe 

Defender 2

Photon Storm

Defender 2000 

Tempest 4000

 

 

Didn't... 

 

 

Jeff himself openly admits things didn't turn out so well with a good few of his titles. 

 

 

With Rob Zybdel, i poured hours into Warbirds on the Lynx, only beaten by Wings on the GBA as that had more variety in it's missions. 

 

 

When it comes to a 'feel' of a game, it can be due to many factors. 

 

I find the C64 version of Dropzone to be weaker than the A8 version, as it's easier, C64 Rescue On Fractalus soon gets boring as it's a slower experience, that's not belittling the work of Archer or Lucasfilm, hardware differences played a role. 

 

 

Rob Zybdel made some changes to Star Raiders, which made it a different experience and they were his design choices

 

The subtle strategic elements were suddenly absent. 

 

 

You weren't able to steer during hyperspace, you couldn't destroy your own Starbase, to stop them falling into enemy hands and being used as a resource, small changes like these and others meant it simply didnt feel like the A8 game anymore. 

 

 

The poor sound FX were no fault of his, thst wretched AY chip was so limited, but the gameplay was all Rob. 

 

Pretty much agree with what you're saying, but just wanted to point out that it is possible to get really good

sounds out of a bog standard ST's sound chip -lots of games have proven that...

 

PS I actually love Tempest 2000!

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by DarkLord
Additional comments...

[Lostdragon]

1 hour ago, DarkLord said:

 

Pretty much agree with what you're saying, but just wanted to point out that it is possible to get really good

sounds out of a bog standard ST's sound chip -lots of games have proven that...

 

PS I actually love Tempest 2000!

 

My phone autocorrect had me getting Rob Zdybel's surname wrong, my apologies to Rob. 

 

 

I'm not familiar with any of Rob's 2600 work, let alone 5200 work and i know Rob himself isn't a fan of Bug Hunt, calling it the worse game of his career, but he old had 6 weeks to code it. 

 

 

But when your taking on something like doing your own version of something with the importantance of Star Raiders, a title Rob himself loved, i just don't see how you can dismiss the very elements that made the game such an experience. 

 

 

And tell me about it, the AY chip in the ST was behind that of the chip in the 128K ZX Spectrum, which had a buzzer that could apparently be used with it, but other teams and individuals put the effort in, Rob appeared not to of. 

 

 

#Tempest 2000 i adored. 

 

4000 was a visual mess, far too much on-screen, difficulty set too high from the off. 

 

Time spent with it pales next to 2000.

 

 

Update:

 

 

 

Skip to around the 15 min mark. 

 

https://ataripodcast.libsyn.com/antic-interview-277-rob-zdybel-atari-part-2

 

 

Rob talks of what he didn't like about the original Star Raiders and feels Doug Nebauer should of fixed, admits his ST version is slightly different to the original and he had no input from Doug when doing his ST version. 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Lostdragon

[TGB1718]

4 hours ago, DarkLord said:

PS I actually love Tempest 2000!

Played and played and played on the Jaguar, loved the music on it too

[Keatah]

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

#Tempest 2000 i adored. 

4000 was a visual mess, far too much on-screen, difficulty set too high from the off. 

Time spent with it pales next to 2000.

That's right. Not interested in a visual cacophony of noise..

 

3 hours ago, Lostdragon said:

Update:

Skip to around the 15 min mark. 

https://ataripodcast.libsyn.com/antic-interview-277-rob-zdybel-atari-part-2

Rob talks of what he didn't like about the original Star Raiders and feels Doug Nebauer should of fixed, admits his ST version is slightly different to the original and he had no input from Doug when doing his ST version.

Part of the the appeal of Star Raiders is what it achieved on the 8-bit machines in 1979. And finding loopholes in its program was like finding an Easter Egg.

 

Comparing the ST version to the 8-bit version is a classic example of an exercise in ridiculousness. And those copy/pasted sound samples, bllacch!! Pokey's sound is so much more real. Synthesized in realtime compared to what sounds like stolen Intellivision clips. The moving starfield is just so fake in the ST version. And so much more. Or should I say less?

[MrMaddog]

That's the overall problem I have with all of the ST ports of Atari's existing games, they were made to show off the ST's strengths like higher rez and drop down menus but they always come up short compared to the 8-bit counterparts.

 

- Star Raiders had nicer graphics but the photon torpedoes had less "Umpph!" because they were just rings.

 

- Missile Command tried to do the color change on every level like the 2600 version but the higher rez (on Low Resolution of all things) made the missile tracks harder to see.  There was this one level I could never pass because I couldn't even see the missiles at all!

 

- Battlezone was a hot mess on color displays.  They use the same wireframe style arcade graphics for the tanks but they were superimposed on the ugly brown ground from the 2600 port.  It only looks decent if you turn the ST color monotor brightness down to "default" instead of cranked to the max.

 

- Crystal Castles is a decent game made better if you have a trackball for your ST, but why did they made Bentely Bear so damn skinny?

 

- Tempest at least had an official version out on the ST even though it looked and sounded like crap, at least there's some gameplay in there

 

- Joust was the only ST port that was arcade persfect, but Williams pulled the license so it became an illegal pirated copy...

 

I hadn't played Pac-Man or Moon Patrol but with this track record I don't intend to.

 

 

[Lostdragon]

Star Raiders was not the only Space game that didn't feel 'right' on the ST (and Amiga) and came as a dissapointment. 

 

 

I found myself agreeing with David Braben and C. C. I magazine, that ST and Amiga ELITE was disspointing and more could of been done with it. 

 

 

 

I can appreciate Rob Nicholoson was working blind as it were, not having access to the original source code, the solid 3D graphics were nice, but expected from the 2 platforms, but the game was what, 4 years old by this point and even the heavily flawed FOFT by Gremlin, was attempting new concepts, such as ability to land on planets. 

 

 

By far the worse contenders for shocking ST versions of games i had loved on the C64 were:

 

 

 

 

 

Music had been ruined and WTF was that massive status panel doing on the RHS of the screen? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Keatah]

IDK.. Sometimes I liken it to the geek's science project where hours and days are spent on research and flashy presentation. But come Q&A time, the presenter fumbles about, and the final grade is a C.

 

8-bit Star Raiders can be said to feel like an electromechanical simulation, with its procedural graphics generation. I like that.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Keatah

[Lostdragon]

10 hours ago, MrMaddog said:

That's the overall problem I have with all of the ST ports of Atari's existing games, they were made to show off the ST's strengths like higher rez and drop down menus but they always come up short compared to the 8-bit counterparts.

 

- Star Raiders had nicer graphics but the photon torpedoes had less "Umpph!" because they were just rings.

 

- Missile Command tried to do the color change on every level like the 2600 version but the higher rez (on Low Resolution of all things) made the missile tracks harder to see.  There was this one level I could never pass because I couldn't even see the missiles at all!

 

- Battlezone was a hot mess on color displays.  They use the same wireframe style arcade graphics for the tanks but they were superimposed on the ugly brown ground from the 2600 port.  It only looks decent if you turn the ST color monotor brightness down to "default" instead of cranked to the max.

 

- Crystal Castles is a decent game made better if you have a trackball for your ST, but why did they made Bentely Bear so damn skinny?

 

- Tempest at least had an official version out on the ST even though it looked and sounded like crap, at least there's some gameplay in there

 

- Joust was the only ST port that was arcade persfect, but Williams pulled the license so it became an illegal pirated copy...

 

I hadn't played Pac-Man or Moon Patrol but with this track record I don't intend to.

 

 

Totally agree with points made here. 

 

I was shocked to see a recent ST games guide give Battlezone 8/10 and compliment it on how well the mix of graphics from the original coin-op and 2600 versions worked, it didn't, it was a mess. 

 

 

It got hammered at review by UK Press 51% The Games Machine,40% CVG etc. 

 

 

Missile Command 55% ST Action. 

 

 

Moon Patrol 50% ST Action, 40% The Games Machine. 

 

 

It's believed (though Rob Zdybel has absolutely no memory of it, seemed to think Atari went from 7800 to Jaguar in terms of games consoles) these conversions of ye oldie coin-ops, were intended to be launch titles for Project Robin, concept of putting ST hardware in an XE style case and selling it and the software at a budget price. 

 

It was reported as being pitched by Rob himself. 

 

Gary Johnson, who did graphics for ST Missile Command, couldn't remember much either,so looks like dead ends looking for more info on that one. 

 

Curious though as Rob did comment about 2600 Pac Man coders memory in the Antic interview.. 

 

 

'Tod's changed a lot over the years.  Tod's now denying stories that I don't know, man... He's saying he never asked for more than 4K for Pac-Man.  I know that's not true, Tod.  I was there when you did."

 

 

 

[+DarkLord]

It's too bad that those conversions weren't given the treatment

they deserved and what the ST was truly capable of. The results

from the examples shown have little, to nothing to do with what

the ST ports could have been. Unfortunately. 

 

[Lostdragon]

24 minutes ago, DarkLord said:

It's too bad that those conversions weren't given the treatment

they deserved and what the ST was truly capable of. The results

from the examples shown have little, to nothing to do with what

the ST ports could have been. Unfortunately. 

 

A lot of the problem is, outside of Rob Zdybel (briefly) chatting about ST Star Raiders, we really don't have any real insights into the development of ST:Battlezone, Moon Patrol and Crystal Castles. 

 

 

If you look at something like Lynx Battlezone 2000,both Jim Gregory and Rob Nicholoson have gone on record explaining why they feel Atari didn't want the solid 3D 2000 mode and it had to be hidden as an Easter Egg, yet both individuals give different opinions. 

 

 

I'd love to know who's idea it was to mix the graphic styles for ST Battlezone and what they think in hindsight and learn more on ST Crystal Castles. 

 

Sadly the individuals involved are unlikely to remember much, if anything now. 

 

Shame.. ?

[MrMaddog]

38 minutes ago, DarkLord said:

It's too bad that those conversions weren't given the treatment

they deserved and what the ST was truly capable of. The results

from the examples shown have little, to nothing to do with what

the ST ports could have been. Unfortunately. 

 

And the sad thing was it was the shareware authors like Dave Munise and Sinister Developments that not only did arcade remakes on the ST that took full advantage of the 16-bit's graphic & sound capibilities but actually surpassed the original gameplay by improving it but still kept what made them so fun to begin with.

 

</fullrunon>

 

[+DarkLord]

21 minutes ago, MrMaddog said:

And the sad thing was it was the shareware authors like Dave Munise and Sinister Developments that not only did arcade remakes on the ST that took full advantage of the 16-bit's graphic & sound capibilities but actually surpassed the original gameplay by improving it but still kept what made them so fun to begin with.

 

</fullrunon>

 

 

Yep... Berzerk! That voice...